scoutldr

What a shame ... a magnificent animal.

You forgot to warn them that the DE will show up and do the FOS arm-twisting thing.

First of all, have all the leaders been trained (adult and youth)? Secondly, the "boy-run" plan put together by the PLC should be presented for approval by the Troop Committee, who should keep the standards high and make sure the youth know what's expected. Yes, troops should be "boy-run", but at this age they also need supervision and guidance. This can be done without "bullwhipping". I agree with having "high adventure" trips for the senior scouts, but they need to realize that the price they pay for this privilege is to also participate with and train the youngsters during the routine campouts and camporees. This gives the younger scouts something to look forward to and strive for.

I once heard a song performed at a Pack Mtg..."You Picked a Fine Time to Leave Me, Loose Wheel"...sung to the tune of the Kenny Rogers hit. Sorry I don't remember the words and don't know the source, but maybe someone else does...

RE: the requirement to learn water survival skills... A few years ago a young Navy sailor was blown off the flight deck of an aircraft carrier. The helo found him within 30 minutes...comfortably relaxing in the water with his inflated dungarees tied around his neck...a skill he had learned and perfected a few years before at Scout camp. I am a Swimming and Lifesaving MB counselor and BSA Lifeguard counselor. I have never seen anyone fail to complete this requirement. Some take longer than others and indeed I have spent a lot of their "free swim" hours in the deep end while they work on it. When they finally achieve a "thumbs up", the ear to ear grin says it all. Was it hard? Yes. Was it worth it? An unequivocal YES. For both of us. And if they are "flailing" the water, we to teach them to relax and conserve energy. I failed Red Cross Jr Lifesaving the first time...they had standards and it was not a "giveaway" certification. Did I quit? No. The next year I took and passed Sr. Lifesaving and a year later got my Water Safety Instructor. The point is, kids need to learn how to fail and how to pick themselves back up and get back in the saddle. Life is not kind to those who do not try.

The "red and white" community strip and state strips are obsolete...they were replaced in the early 70s by the Council Shoulder Patch (CSP) and should not be worn together. We also have some "die-hards" in our council who refuse to admit that they are part of our council, so they wear the strips instead of the CSP since they are actually in another state. Also, the unit numerals with city and state from classb.com are not official, and technically should not be worn on the uniform. A good rule of thumb is that "if it's not sold by BSA, it's not official and can't be worn", except of course for temporary event patches that may be worn only on the right pocket.

I have seen the reference to "you wouldn't think of wearing half a uniform on the baseball or football team, would you?"...ad nauseam. The difference is that, in organized sports, the uniform is issued to the player and turned back in at the end of the season...the parent does not have to purchase it...to the tune of almost a hundred bucks. In four years of varsity baseball, all I had to buy was the hat, socks and cup. My 24 year old former Scout son is now playing softball on a church team...guess what...they all got a team shirt, but there are 11 different kinds of pants and hats on the field. Same problem...EXCEPT...nobody seems obsessed about it like we are... As I have said in another post...BSA ARE YOU LISTENING????? You make it hard for kids to be scouts and adults to be leaders by "mandating" poor quality uniforms at outrageous prices...it's no wonder our numbers are dwindling.

RE: religious award square knots...the silver on purple knot may be worn regardless of which award (Cub, Boy Scout)...if earned as a Cub Scout, the metal cub scout device is attached to the knot...if the Boy Scout version is earned, the Boy Scout device can be added. The same applies to adult square knots, such as the Scouter's Key. I also read once in the Insignia Guide that Eagle Palms should be attached to the Eagle Square Knot, although I never see them worn that way.

In the USA, merit badges and badges of rank may be earned and worn by youth under age 18 only. The only exception is the Eagle Scout award, for which a red, white and blue square knot (reef knot) is worn above the left shirt pocket. In other countries, the custom may be different.

It's not an official position, as far as I know, but I like the idea! Perhaps a "rocker" patch which says "EMERITUS" to fit under the "Scoutmaster" (or other position) patch. I have seen patches on eBay made like the "TRAINED" strip which read "RETIRED", "OVERTRAINED", "UNTRAINABLE", etc., but these are unofficial and unauthorized for uniform wear.

That's bizarre. I can see individual units having a program tailored to the beliefs of the CO, but at the District and Council level, the BSA program should be the same nationwide. This is tantamount to the BSA sanctioning the beliefs of one religion to the exclusion of all the others. I thought we were supposed to be tolerant and inclusionary? I can and do agree with the tenet of "duty to God", and agree that religion has a part in the movement...but only if it remains ecumenical. When a Council is operated to meet the demands of one religion, they are forcing those beliefs on others and that's discrimination. BTW, acco40, if they don't like the term "Mormon", why is it called the "Book of Mormon"? Educate us.

We were given the course catalogue for Philmont and strongly encouraged to attend by our DE. When I asked who paid the tuition and travel expenses, the reply was "Why, you do, of course!" I would really like to hear opinions if this training is really worth considering paying upwards of $1000 (tuition + travel) and a week's vacation time out of my own pocket. I am on the east coast and don't travel out of state much except on business. Like every other Scouter, I am already giving up a week for Summer Camp and more dollars than my wife should know about to support my "cheerful service".

First of all, for the record, I am straight. Married, with two fine sons, also straight (as far as I know). So what if B-P was gay? Would that change our Movement? Would we all burn our uniforms in disgust and walk away from our investment and the value system? How is this relevant? Keep in mind that B-P was in a different time. My Dad told me that when he was a boy (20s and 30s), swimming at the pond or the pool at the "Y" was always in the nude. No girls allowed, of course (or at least he didn't tell me about that part). Could it be that B-P was just enjoying seeing boys frolic and have fun in, what was then considered to be a natural, socially acceptable activity of youth? And now, when we read his accounts, we are putting our "21st Century" spin on things and automatically thinking anyone who would not turn his head in disgust (and indeed even write about it in a positive light) must be a pedophile? Heck, we have become so hung up on this that kids aren't even required to shower in PE class any more...someone might see someone naked and accuse the teacher of something. Bottom line is, I don't know if B-P was gay or not...no one will ever know. But does it matter?

How to parent. Procreating is instinctual, parenting must be learned.

I have one (that I can't part with), but I don't think they are available any more...don't see them in the catalog or Scout Shop.

If any troops still actually cook over wood fires: have the scouts coat the OUTSIDE of their cook pots with liquid dish soap, being careful not to get any on the inside (unless you like sudsy beans and lots of latrine time!). When it comes time for cleanup, the scouts will think you're a genius when the black stuff on the pots merely washes off without scrubbing with a Brillo pad! When I was a young scout, it was unheard of not to "soap your pots" before cooking, of course, we didn't have propane back then.

My point was that the Scout Oath and Law are not a "cafeteria plan", picking and choosing what you like and ignoring the rest because they are inconvenient or more "socially acceptable". So why are we choosing to enforce duty to God, but not the other duties with equal vigor? In my opinion, Darell Lambert was no more a hypocrite than the rest of us...just on different subjects.

Yes, there is a correlation! More than a few have thrown in the towel after a run-in with the Council/District staff, both professional and volunteer. That's how I got the training job...the last guy showed up at the Council office and turned in his "training kit" and said, "I quit." And he quit everything, even his Unit position. Now I understand. Seems to me that the volunteer Scouter cadre should be catered to and made to feel valued and appreciated...not as additional "staff" to be dictated to and ordered around like low-level employees. I get enough of that at work, and I'm NOT going to tolerate it as a volunteer.

One of the posts in this thread referred to "YP Facilitator Training". Can anyone provide more information on this? Is this a formal training program, or just a Council or District thing? I am the new District Training Chair, and asked the question "who can teach YP"...all I got from my DE, district commissioner and district chairman were blank stares....the procedure has been "anyone can teach it who wants to...all they need to do is check out the video and make sure they are putting out the proper policy." Seems to me if we are all supposed to be on the same sheet music, there needs to be a more formal, Nationally-enforced policy.

To carry this logic a step further...I am a BSA Lifeguard Counsellor and Aquatics Instructor...in every BSALG class I have ever taught, scouts show up who can't demonstrate a proper breast stroke, side stroke, etc...some can't even swim a length of the 25 yard pool. Should they not have their Swimming and Lifesaving Merit Badges revoked and bust them back to Tenderfoot until they can prove they can meet the requirements properly???? Now that we've purged our ranks of queers and atheists, who can we go after next? Philanderers? Wife beaters? Alcoholics? Anyone who's ever cheated on an exam? Cheated on their income tax? Had premarital sex? How about all us fat guys ...should we get our Eagle square knots publicly ripped off our shirts too? God and morality aren't the only criteria in the Oath and Law, you know...The line forms here. Go ahead, guys...cast the first stone. Let's see who's left standing to "Deliver the Promise". "When they came after the Jews, I remained silent because I wasn't a Jew....and then they came after me and there was no one left to speak out."

As a trainer, I don't advocate openly anything but full BSA uniforming. If asked, I will quote BSA policy. However, I did recently purchase a pair of new OD green BDU pants from www.military.com for $18.99. For district/Council meetings, Courts of Honor, camporee opening and closing ceremonies, and training sessions, I'll gladly wear my $40 pair of cheaply made official BSA trousers...for troop meeetings, camping, hiking, and other things, I'll stick to my $20 BDUs or $12 blue jeans (Costco), so I won't have a fit if I rip out a knee or splatter bacon grease on them. The BSA needs to get real. $43 for a shirt (XXL at the local Scout Shop) and $38 for pants is ridiculous. And for those who don't know, there is officially no such thing as a "Class A" or "Class B" uniform. As far as BSA is concerned, you are either in uniform, or not. BY the way, I attended the Council Trainer Development Conference yesterday, and we were sternly and rudely lectured by the senior staff guy present (6 rows of square knots, including a "Silver Antelope") for wearing "half a uniform" (some had blue jeans on, in accordance with their unit custom or policy). Having spent a great deal of time reading the "Insignia Guide", I then started looking for a Council or District rep on the course staff who had all of their stuff in the right place...guess what, I didn't find one. What did I find? Wearing troop numbers with a Council or District position patch...position patches in the wrong positions (should be touching CSP - Position 2, if there are no unit numbers), wearing the "trained" strip for the wrong position, adults wearing unapproved patrol patches, too many Quality Unit patches (only the latest one earned may be worn and then only by unit scouters, not district or council scouters), OA lodge "trader flaps" on the pocket flap, Brotherhood and Vigil members wearing an Ordeal flap (different color borders), no service stars, wrong color shoulder loops, no OA pocket ribbons, "Proud Parent" ribbons, etc, etc, etc. The moral of this diatribe is two-fold: make sure your own uniform is perfect (check a uniform inspection sheet and the Insignia Guide if you don't know) before you dare to criticize others, and 2) the way uniforming is currently done, I will need 4 different shirts, costing almost $200 (with patches)depending on which meeting I'm going to, to be considered "properly uniformed"....that's unreasonable, and it ain't gonna happen.

Yes, my tongue was firmly planted in cheek. The reality is, it's extremely difficult to fill all the volunteer positions that "the book" says we should have ... especially in a "new" district such as ours (a 3 for 1 split). At the District meeting, the Chairman was lamenting the fact that we didn't have enough commissioners...but he was preaching to the choir...the few of us who showed up for the District meeting (and not a COR among us!) already are holding down 3-4 registered positions apiece. I do have a full time job and family, which more often than not, gets in the way of my Scouting career, so I have found myself increasingly sitting on my hands when the call goes out for help. Before I get too long-winded, perhaps it's time for the BSA to take a hard look at how best to use the shrinking pool of volunteer time that people are willing to donate. Do we really still need Unit Commissioners, or should we convert them into a mobile team of "Training Commissioners" or "mentors", so that Unit leaders are more confident and better trained? When we schedule formal training sessions, a typical turnout is 10-15 leaders...a mere fraction of those who need it; again the time demands on leaders are preventing them from giving up a weekend or a series of evenings to listen to a canned presentation which insults their adult intelligence. My concept is to handle "New Leader Essentials" and Youth Protection at the unit level (which I hear is the plan for "Pack Trainers", but hasn't been fully implemented), and then assigning each new leader a "mentor" (experienced leader) for one on one Leader Specific training who can be a phone call away to answer questions, offer encouragement, and share experiences of what works and what doesn't. Then, next year, that leader becomes a "mentor" for another new leader.

Interesting reading...being a "right-coaster" for all my life, I have never heard of Mic-O-Say until I read about it here. I am amazed that the BSA allows an unofficial organization with such similar themes compete with the officially sanctioned Order of the Arrow, which has been an official program of the BSA since 1948. By the way, I have personally been acquainted with two pedophiles in my life. One was my OA Lodge Advisor and the other was hired by the Council to be the Camp Director. Both were convicted and served prison terms and generated tons of nasty publicity that permanently damaged our program. They were both Eagle scouts and OA Vigil Honor recipients. The Advisor was a Silver Beaver. Pedophiles are probably still walking among our ranks, maybe even reading these posts to get a better understanding of our programs and procedures. Only by being vigilant and rigorously enforcing Youth Protection and the G2SS rules, even when they are inconvenient or you think you are among trustworthy and honorable people, can we deny them of their prey.

I've been a Cubmaster, Committee Chairman and Scoutmaster for 20 years. What's a Unit Commissioner???

I'm not a Mormon, but we have some LDS units in our Council. The most obvious difference is at Camporees they all pack up and leave on Saturday night, because apparently they are not allowed to do anything on a Sunday, except go to church. I also recently taught CS Leader training and a brand new CM told me that his religious leader had "ordered" him to be the Cubmaster and go to training as his "job" within the church. Also, I think by BSA policy, all units have to be open to all boys regardless of race or religion, but in practice I don't think that happens...non-LDS boys are not actively excluded, but I don't think they are actively recruited, either (such as at school night Roundups). These are just my observations, and I'm sure if I'm wrong, you know who will set us straight.