Scoutfish

I say if you join, go to meetings, and pay your dues..then yes, it is an entitlement. It is part of the program and should not be a "selective" ( read biased) program. BUT...I see no issue with requireing a certain age that is on the higher end of the program or based on minimum rank requirements. Know what I mean? Maybe you have to be at least 1st class or have 3 years in before attendance is allowed. Then it follows along with the general program of scouting which is divided up by years and rank. I see nothing wrong with shakedown either. Again, certain entitlements require a degree of earing it instead of just getting it for the sake of just being a scout. Now, I say this having absolutely NO scouting experience as a leader or as a scout myself. but it isn't different in the real world: You cannnot get a class A CDL as soon as you get your first drivers license you have top have a few years experience and be at leasta few years older than what is eligible for a regular drivcers license. In our daily work lives, we have to earn advancement and promotions. In the military, you have to earn promotions too. Yes, it should be an entitlement, and not selective based on what ultimately - in some troops - could just be popular choice based on who is liked or cool enough....but it's an entitlement that every scout has the EQUAL OPPERTUNITY to WORK for!

That is AWESOME! Back in September of 2002, my father dies. He was a retired United Stated Coast Guard Officer. His funeral was not to long after the turmoil of 9-11 and all the changes within the military - the USCG went from being a Dept of Transportation unit to becomeing a Dept of Homeland Security unit. Needless to say, with many apologies, the USCG was not able to send a bugler to my fathers funeral. Well, a Boy Scout from Wilmington, NC stepped up and played TAPS at my father's funeral. He refused any compensation at all and said it was he who was honored to do it. This was back before I had anything to do with scouting at all, so I do not know his name, rank or what troop he was from. I imagine by now that he is in his mid to late 20's by now. Anyways, That is one thing that will always stand out in my mind. ALWAYS!

Laquer Thinner will remove anything. BUT BE CAREFULL! It will also take of the original paint if rubbed too hard or used to much at a time. Doesn't matter if it's a 30 year old triple bakes sealed in 30 coats of clear....too much laqeur wil take the paint and primer off to the metal if you aren't careful! But, it done carefully and slowly, it works like a charm! Also great for taking off the adheasive left behind by old pin-stripes, decals, bumper stickers, etc....

That's AWESOME! The potential for even one thing to go wrong and give a bad lasting impression is pretty high. Glad it all went well. Especially soince your scouts are rarin to go again!

Not sure how many of you ever saw this ,but it's a real answering machine recording from Australia. Thing is, you see the same issues in BSA too. My experience with it is in Cub Scouts, but I imagine it can be worse in Boy scouts. Parents who do not bother to help out, work with or participate in the program...or at the very least, take time to even see what it's really about. These parents do not lift a finger to help, yet blame all their childs woes on the leadership, members , and other scouts in the pack/troop/crew ! So, while you cannot leave a message like the one above ( or can you? ) , what would you say? WE tell parents that we love your kids, but we are NOT baby sitters! If all you are going to do, and if the total sum of your participation is going to be dropping your kid off....then find another pack! So what is your "message" ?

Elwood: Illinois Nazis. Jake: I hate Illinois Nazis

This might sound corny, but so what: If it wasn't for scouting - I'd never have to explain the sound of a leaf falling on the side of a tent at 3am. I'd never have seena group of boys sitting around a fire talking about everything BUT video games, tv show, movies, etc,,,,. I'd never had the chance to actup and be as silly and young as a bunch of boys and parents be estatic about it! And I would have never had the chance, nor would I understand the honor of the opportunity to mentor young boys

Yeah....we have a full committee, but some of those committee members are the ones who came up with the kiddie pool ideas and such. Not saying I am spectacular or anything, but maybe what is needed is the freshness of some of my ideas. Know what I mean? A different way of thinking. I have had most of the parents tell me they WILL be going to our 3rd fun day. Besides, I am enjoying it, so it's not a burden for me!

Well, Time for my $.02 worth! I remeber growing up , that sometimes a person would come over and my parents would introduce them as my baby sitter. I was told that this was a nice person and that mam and dad would be back - maybe even before bedtime. Yep, My two responcibl;e grown up adult parents still went out every noiw and then and still had fun! AS PARENTS! I became a husband whe I was 25years old. I met my wife, became her freind, then became her best friend, then her boyfriend. We were together for almost 5 years before we got married. My son was born when I was 30 years old. So here I was , a 30 year old responcible adult who had a job, a wife and a home....and I was no more experienced as a parent than this girlscout will be the day her baby is born. My point of view is this: WElcome this girl with open arms! Scouting is about helping mold our kids into good citizens. It's about helping them to learn to make right choices on their own by example and mentoring. Some kids need more help than others, But the day we say :"OOOps! You screwed up , so you are completely out of the picture!"...is the day that we forget why we are here: To help kids grow up and mature...not abandon them at the first mistake. THis girl IS a mom, but she is NOT an adult! She is a child who is having a child. You might even say she needs double the mentoring and help. Now, this girl is a person, but also a great learning tool! Not being: A) a girl B) in Girl scouting C) ever able to have a baby myself I cannot imagine what it's like to be a prego teen. I could lecture to my daughter all day long about sex, pregnacy, or anything along the lines of that...but I might as well try teaching my dog about nuclear fission. But wait a minute! You have a person who is the same age, same generation and as close to your own daughters group of friends and buddies as you can get_ basically, she is the same generation and everything else the rest of the girls are. What better person to give a real life in your face touch and see lesson on abstinance or sex ed or whatever approach you have. HeatherK, I understand you hesitation and fears here. Seems like no matter what happens, you probably should have chosen the other way. I am by no means talking down or lecturing you....just trying to give you another point of view. Easy for me to say being a Cub Master in a pack full of non-pregnacy capable boys! The only advice I can offer is this: Don't look at this as a leader or girl scout. Look at this as a parent. Look at that girl as your daughter. Now ask yourself: If she was your daughter, what would you want? What would you do? Then put yourself in that girls place. If you were her, what would you want. How might this help you or make you better? There are alot of people who could have used a little help in life, even if only a little bit of acceptance and understanding. But likewise, there are some folks who could have used a shot of tough love in their lives. Good luck in whichever way it goes!

Another thought too: This SPL was elected by the boys. So basically, It is a popularity thing. Hopefully, for the right reasons ( leadership abilities, skills proficency, talents, etc..)and not the wrong ones _ just cause he'scool. It may be that you newly elected SPL was trying to make too many people( who elected him) happy at one time and pulled into too many different directions.

I want to add to my post, because, as I was in a hurry to get out the door on time for my son's end of week bible school presentation....my post was left short and vague. I apologize as I knew what I was thinking, and thought my post made complete sense! Anyways, my point about stress and arguements and expecting scouts to act our age was meant as: We ourselves have stressfull days. We sometimes finally snapp and possibly blow up at, cuss out and generally act like an ass to coworkers, higher ups and sunordinate employees. We sometimes get mad out our spouses, children and friends too. We rant, ravem cuss and even throw things. And later, after we cool down, we excuse ourselves by saying : " Well, I was stressed out and so and so was crawling up my butt to get "X" done on time!" Or we claim : "WEll, I had a bad day at work and everything went wrong , so I just flipped out!" And just like that - we think everythimng is absolved, peachy keen and in no way are we supposed to do, think, or feel bad about it. But then we take kids....yes kids - na matter how mature they might act sometimes.....they are stil kids. And we expect them to run other kids as if they were absolute professional adults - and we do not allow them to vent, pop, blow or cave under pressure or duress that we cave to ourselves. As soon as the do...we want to kick them out of the troop? Ban them from Scouting completely and brand them as unstable for life? No, I know nobody actually said that, but it's slowly getting to that point! Thing is, we do the same thing at the jobs we are paid to do as grown up mature and professional adults. So I auppose that in order to be fair, we shhould expect to be not only fired, but banned from that type of work and possibly wear a scarlet G on our shirts for grenade! "Watch Out! he might blow!" NOw, I did say take him out of that position,m but I meant at that time only....a temporay thing . Have 1 adult sit down and ask him to openly , and without any fear of retaliation or retribution, explain exactly what he is thinking and feeling. Honestly, He is probably torn up inside because of what is a common thing in these threads: Too mant adults acting as the sole chief of the tribe and DEMANDING that he do this, do that , do it a particular way and not any other way ( except each adult has a different way) ...and not once allowed him to have his own thought or idea about how to do anything. Not saying this is intentional or that anybody is even aware of doing it. We are bosses and parents - it is second nature for us to lead and take charge. The only problem is that we are doing it through the boys instead of teaching them to do it themselves. Personally, I always learned that the best way to learn is from your mistakes.

That pretty much says it all doesn't it? You can't have a CEO, Pres, VP, Administrator, Asst Administrator Executive Board, Dept Supervisor, Section Chief .......over only 3 workers! But having no experience in scouts myself......I have to ask: Is there a way to have a SPL ( if there are enought Patrols ) advance from a PL position? Know what I mean? You have a few PL's and the boys are ready to vote another PL...could one of the current PL's become the SPL? I ask only because it seems that if these guys really enjoy a great experience in scouting, then the SPL may become a SM or ASM in a few years.

My son is only 9 years old, so I can't speak from a parents point of view or experience with an older teenager, but I do know this: We sometimes forget that our kids are still just kids. We impose a tad bit too much expectations on them sometimes. We tell them to act their age( in reality, We are thinking OUR age). So anyways....I remember a few times in my life as an adult - who is married - who had a new child in my home. Sometimes the simplest of things would drag you down and just flatten you in the dirt. Gotten into a few arguements with my wife and said somethings that were not only just in bad taste, but downright hateful. Spiteful nasty things that should not have been said. The saving garec was that my wife had twice as many of those days. It's not always a big burden that does it. Matter of fact, it's usually the small things that make me just lose it and freak. Turns ouyt tghere is a name for that condition: STRESS! JUst like most things, it doesn't start out full blast, but slowly and surely works itself into the final product. The kid needs to be out of that position, but he does deserve having a thorough "mile in his shoes" understanding too!

jamist649, As much as I hate to say it...you won't be able to get to every parent....so don't waste your valuable time trying to. What I mean is , you can make an effort, but don't go so far that you are bending over backwards or jumping through hops! Know what I mean? The scouts get to the meetings, and get home afterward? Somebody drove them. Sure, some might carpool or whatnot, but most are driven by parents. The thing to remember is this: Scouting is a family active activity!There is an expectation that the family is involved. Some parents don't care. My brother in law for example - 3 months in a row ....3 MONTHS!.... before our Blue and Gold - We announced before and after each opack meeting, had DL'ds announce before and after each den meetings, sent out reminders every week by pack blast, e-mails and even phone tree (hub I suppose). The ACM even mentioned it 7 times during the pack meeting 5 days before the B&G. I called my B-I-L the day before the B&G to make sure he showd up a few minutes early. 1 hour before the B&G, he calls me and askes what his den is supposed to bring because.......NOBODY SAID ANYTHING TO HIM AT ALL! Somehow, around 100 kids and their parents knew about the B&G, cooked many dishes, prepared displays, make cakes, brought nickles, brought tokens and rehearsed their parts of the presentation...and my B-I-L had no idea? He didn't care. I guess his mind glazed over at every meeting or he was daydreaming? Neither he or his wife paid any attention to the e-mails? So it would be nice to be able to tell each and every parent, but reality is this: You could go dor to door, tell every parent, get a signed afadavit from each parents swearing that you told them....and somebvody would still say they didn't know about whatever you were trying to tell them!

One thing i have learned from cooking out or when away: Onion powder is "just about" as good as using real onions. No, not perfect, but as close as you can get while notusing the real thing: No cleanup, no stink, no mess! If you are going to make a cake..you can buy dutch oven liners at Wal-Mart . Yeah, It is "cheating" until YOU are the one scrapping the DO out - then it's not cheating! LOL! I have used soap. I do it only when absolutely necessary though. But here's the thing: just because you are using soap...it does not mean you have to scrub like the devil! But usually, just boil water for a few minutes and wipe clean and dry with a clean rag or towel. OOne last thing: I completely agree about pliars: Using a DO lid lifter is way, way better! The lid will not slip, or tilt, thus no "special seasoning" in your food! AND the handle is designed to keep heat transfer to a minimum!

LOL! I meant LNT, not TNT!

John, Cool! I was thinking the same thing, but since nobody else said it, I thought maybe I was wrong. I'd dump the power point, any videos,and paperwork too unless as said, recipes, or charts that show "X" many coals = "X" temperature for "X" size DO Something else you could do its show a DO table. Practice DO while being TNT. You won't have a fire pit or burnt area when you break camp.

All I am saying is this: Sometimes...somebody might misunderstand something and take it the wrong way. After that, their viewpoint is skewered somewhat, and what started out as nothing can escalate into a big issue. This may be the case with you, your husband, the CM who was the ACM or whatever and also part of the pack membership.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

We use E-Blast too. Yeah bbender, Soar is great! It is througfh our websight, The recipients can break down thei stuff by pack and den too. I can seperate info by committee/leaders, dens, packs, scouts or parents. We also have e-mail aliases for all leadership, specific den leadership, CM and ACM, and the entire pack ( all scouits and parents) We used to have the phone tree setup, but for around $100.00 a year and no more than we used it ...we let it go. WE also announcre at the begining of pack meetings and recap at the end. We hand out flyers at pack and den meetings. This upcoming year ( we follow school calendar too) I am putting up a 3'X 2' dry erase board in the foyer of our CO for every den and pack meeting so everybody has to walk past it when going in. After all this...If somebody doesn't get the info...well, it's not like we didn't try!

I will not..repaet...WILL NOT say that the other person is to blame. Noe will I say you are to blame. There are too many things that I did not personally see or hear, and the tone or particular situation when something was said can make a BIG difference on how it should be taken. Okay, Let me say that, while not intimately familiar with your particular series of event...It does souynd like something I have witnessed in general from trhe side, the front and personally. MISUNDERSTANDING COMPOUNDED! You ever have somebody say something to you, and it turns out you took it the wrong way? Mabe that comment sounded sarcastic, but really wasn't. Maybe that remark sounded condescending, but wasn't afterall. Sometimes, the way you recieve or interpret a comment or action is actually more of a a reflection of you than the person who said or did it. See, here's the thing, for all the stuff you said the guy did, it seems that the pack and committee and members of the CO still don't have an issue with him. I was a ADL last year, people regarded me as "THE" DL of my sons den. Why? I really can't say for sure, but maybe because I showed up early for , and left late for evey den meeting and every pack meeting and every pack event. When we went camping,. I not only assisted the boys and parents within my den, but would also help anybody withing our pack where needed. I helps with all kinds of committes, fundraisers and such. Now, I do not in any way blame our DL( because work is work - especially in these economuic times) but he would show up late sometimes. Other times he would call when the den meetings were supposed to sart and ask if I could cover for him. So after time goes by and a few parenst would pass by him and ask me about something pertaining to their son or a den event, this DL decides that I am undermining him. A kid from the den calls me the "leader" in front of the DL. Hre thinks I am telling the boys to do this. At a leadership meeting, I openly state that I would like the honor of being a DL "ALSO" in the following year. Another den leader says someth9imng to the effect of " WEll, you practically already are one." He said it ( if you were intimately familiar with him) in a way that only meant I was experienced enough to do the job. He in no way slammed the DL or put him down. So anyways, without anything actually being said or implied, our DL got upset and figured everybody was going behind his back talking about him and making him look bad. That was NOT the case> I was only doing what an ADL is supposed to do per BSA ( just a few highlites) * Be ready to fill in for the den leader in case of an emergency. *Take part in the annual pack program planning conference for den leaders, ADL's, and pack leaders. *Work in harmony with other den and pack leaders. Now, when I stated my intentions ..well asked the leadership about bevcoming a DL, the wife of the DL got upset and tok it as a personal attck on her husband. She said that it wasn't up to the leadership to determine if I was to become a leader, but up to her husband, the current DL for our den . OKay, so what does all this come to? Well, the best I can tell is this: The DL ( who is a great guy beyond whay I said above) and his wife didn't understand the program..or at the very least, saw a different version of it. They thought things should be done differently than the way they were being done. Nothing wrong with that either...except when two different groups within a bigger group think things should be done "their " way. And there are always 20 ways to do something right. You jusy have to either agree on it, or make sure the minority knows what the majority agreed on. Know what I mean? Now, I can "sympathyze with the guy on one account for sure: I have a deep loud voice. I have been accused of yelling and hollering even when I am not. Even when I am just laugghing or talking in MY normal voice, people have thought I was being loud. Of course, over time, those same people figure out I just have a loud voice and realize that I am not hollering or yelling....but they got to know me well to figure it out. NOw, I am not talikng this guys side over yours. I am not taking yours over his. I am just saying that there are two sides to everything and two different versions at that too. And one thing different about our pack is this: we have leadership meetings where the COR,CC, CM and ACM are all present with all the DL's and ADL's too. We talk about what we are going to do, how, what and when. But when we are not at those meetings, the CC and COR do not really tell the ACM or DL's and ADL's what to do. If the feel something needs to be done, they tell the CM, whos job it is to direct the leadership under him. Not saying it has to be that way, but something to think about. Anyways, I bet alot of what happened is more due to misunderstandings and lack of communication...and personal interpretation that actual spite . Best of luck to you.

Well, I see it like this: It all depends onthe setting. When I was younger in the early/ mid eighties...nunchucks, Chinese throwing stars and the such were booming ( again?0 in popularity. Chuck Norris wasn't close to being a rRanger yet and VanDam didn't have a carrer yet. I wanted a set of nunchucks, but couldn't afford any. So what was the next best thing? Make your own! If only I had the concept of "proper" instruction, training and use behind nunchucks! I'm lucky I was able to still have kids, stuill talk, see out of BOTH eyes and still have friends! Throwing stars? Yeah...lucky the phone and power company didn't fine me for all the TS's stuck in telephone ploes and such. Again, lucky I still have bothe eyes, have a son and my friends and I stayed friends. So as for the butterfly knife..The only reason I can see a scout wanting one at a scout setting is because of the cool factor. The same cool factor that made me want nunchucks, stars and even some Sai's. If the scout wants one to use in some sort of controlled setting such as a karate school, or likewise type of schooling or training.....GO FOR IT! But for scouting, th cool factor will outweigh any safety thoughts!

Okay, let me restate what I meant when I said "minimal requirements". There are ALWAYS minimal requirements. TRhere isn't a 3 out 4 best requirements. There are certain amount of requirem3enst that have to be met. Anythuing less is a failor "incomplete" as far as requirements are concerened. In a MB situation, you have to do certain things. Such as wimming: You have to meet certain requirements to pass. The swimming MB does not say you have to be on par with Michael Phelps or anuy othetr Olympic swimmer. It does not say you have to be the fastest , coolest loking, or most like Aquaman type of swimmer. It just lays out a certain amount of requirements that must be passed. Tht is trhe minimum. It really means that you can't say :" Since you are skinnier, it's harder for you to swim so you only have to do this many " ...while telling a bigger and more boyant person that: 'Since floating comes easier to you, you must do more of "X" to pass. It also means that you don't say " Your backstroke looked pretty ugly , so It doesn't count." I am saying that every MB or badge has a certain amount of requirements that must be met in order to pass or complete that badge. Anything less is below the minimum required .

Is it for the "looks cool while totally impractical" MB? Nope! Wouldn't get my son one either. Too many holes in the floor, walls, ceiling, dogs and his hands or eyes while trying to get good at it. I cannot see any redeeming value to a butterfly knife in scouting.

Desertrat77 Nah, Never said it was an A for effort badge. I said that the boys met the MINIMUM requirement to earn it. That means they met a minimun.The bare minimum standards. I also said that this DOES NOT mean you turn them loose unsupervised and alone. Of course they think they are experts...they think that about everything! One perfect hotdog and they think they are chefs. Back down the driveway without wrecking and they think they are master drivers who can text, talk, change clothes and read ...all while driving and adjusting the radio. I'm saying, now that these boys got a swimming badge, take them swimming. Put thenm in the water every weekend if you can to build up strenght , stamina and to let them perfect their form. Just like drivers Ed: 2 weeks behind the wheel does not make you a safe experienced driver...only time,practice and experience do that.

YEP! been there - done that!