Scoutfish

We hold our AOL ceremony back to back with our Crossover ceremony, but thet are two different ceremonies. Now I say that because AOL is not the same as crossing over ( yeah, I know most of you already know that) . It's rare, but we have had a few boys who will continue out the rest of the season( we are a 9 month pack), then cross over.

My Co is a Methodist Church. I do not even pretend to think I completely understand what their game plan ( mission statement) is as a religion. I "am" an Episcopalian. Sorta, Haven't been to my home church since I was young. Althought I truely believe, I have minor issues with organized religion. But if the BSA relaxed prohibitions on adult leadership. we'd lose a few parents , no doubt about it. But that happens anyways for some of the dumbest reasons: popcorn sales , no smoking in the CO ( not even our choice, even though we'd ban it too), for not being a baby sitting service...We even had one parent quit because we had boiled potatoes and green beans as a side dish at a fundraiser instead of potato salad! So yeah, a few might quit. But we might gain an equal amount back. Maybe more, maybe less.

And what's up with the gorilla? I thought it was supposed to be a herring or elephant!

At our leaders meeting last night, I had 2 of our Bear DL's ask me about camping out in the CO's soccer field. They would like to do this maybe 4 or 5 times over the course of the year. I think it's a great idea! Now, right off the bat, I want to explain to them that you can't camp on the den level. But before I say that, they ( the two DL's from 2 different dens) tell me that it's not going to be an entire weekend thing. More like: Friday night: Show up around 6:30 to 7:00 pm. They will have their den meetings for about an hour. Then afterward, the parents and DL's will cook supper on a campfire and grills, then maybe thay might play games, skits or tell stories. Then bed time. Saturday morning, they plan on being up and breaking "camp" by 8:00 am at the very latest. No breakfast, no nothing. Just wake up, pack up and leave. So, yes it is more than a den meeting, but falls short of what most of us would call a campout. Now, where they plan to set up the tents is within 250 feet of segregated indoor toilet, sink, shower facilities. There are even more about anotrher 100 yards past that - all CO owned. I told tham that they would definantly have to file a tour permit and possibly a site check approval form. Now, in my opinoin - which I am well aware may be very, very wrong - the fact that there are two seperate dens changes it from den camping to pack camping. Oh yeah, there will be a BALOO trained person and plenty of 2 deep and YP I called our scout office today and talked to the office administrator...who in reality is the person who knows almost more than anybody else....and she said that nobody ever asked her about it quite the way I did and she isn't sure either. She said go ahead and fill out a tour permit and see what happens. She is "pretty sure " it would be fine since it's at the CO and not a campgroung or random site. Yeah< i know BSA policy is to go to council camp, but that is also a way to tack $30.00 on each family plus an hour and a half drive each way. In that instance, they dens would just not do it. Okay, steer me straight: What are the options and what are the precidents here. I'm pretty sure I know, but that whole 2 den thing is what is throwing me off.

"The people, for the most part, that continue to harp about the Gay issue are outside the the organization; though there are a few apparently here that are not happy, and have an agenda. " I am somewhere in that mix, although I cannot accuratly describe where or what the name of my position would be. But let me try to explain it...You can give it a name. I have nothing against gay people. Nothing. I do not advocate gay people or promote them. I have nothing against athiests either. I do not advocate or promote them either. I am not racist, bigoted or predjudiced, I also do not believe in affirmative action. I belive the best person for the job should get the job. I want the most qualified to get the job. Now, the religios part withstanding, I want the best leader to be the one who leads. The guy who somehow connects with the boys and enlightens them to the bigger world, the outdoors and being self substainable. Now, if that person ( on their own time) worships car tires, dates inter-gender or has relationship with sheep..... I do not care. Why? Because my 9 year old son - while attending den meetings and campouts, does not get any address by any leader about heterosexuality, the proper way of dating, or how one god is better than another. That stuff just doesn't come up. That's not part of our program. Now, we do say a non denominational ( well generic) prayer during ceremonies and what could pass for Scouts Own, but really, as we have members from different religions in our pack, and of different heritages, we kinda gloss over it because in most cases, the family is where the scouts get their religious direction and education. Just like the religious award, it's not BSA goverened or awarded, as it shouldn't be. That is up to the individual religions and families. So my agenda isn't about pushing for or promoting gays, but as a parent and volunteer who had time and a chld vested in the program, I want the best program possibble , not the best that we can muster with non issue limiting circumstances. If he/she happens to be gay or athiest, so be it. And I can compare that to my job: My boss does not care what religion I practice or if I dress up in a cow suit every night as long when I am on the clock, I do the best job possible and he gets what he pays for. My boss is smart enough to know that wether I worship 3 gods or the one God that I do follow..it has nothing to do with the integrity of the garage doors I install. Wether I dress up in high heels or Star Trek costumes at home has nothing to do with the quality of work or my punctuality. And honestly, there are so manty guys at my job who cheat on their wives, hang out at bars all night, who pay child support for kids they have NEVER seen ( part of the cheating ), have lost their drivers license to DWI/ DUI, or who cannot spell their own last name the same way twice in a row,........He really doesn't care about what I sleep in or who with...all he cares about is that when I am on the job, I do it professionally and to the best of my ability. And I'd be cool with that in scouting too. And that's my position.

Well, I figure that for every kid that turns out great because of the program, there is probably one who is the polar opposite.Maybe he likes that tiny bit of power he thinks he has as a SPL and ends ub being a womanizing, pessimistic jerk wad boss to overworked, underpaid, unappreciated employes. Might have happened anyways, just as the good kid might have been god without scouting. But we don't know that right now do we. My son is only 9, so it's unrealistic to see how much total benefit scouting has on him so far. He does solve more problems on his own, and will just as soon fix most of his meals himself that to ask for help or one of us to do it. Looking at the kitchen, I'm still debating wether that is a good thing or not! But I figure it's like this: Seeing as he is not even close to being a youing adult yet, I really can't judge him yet either. I might be wrong, but I'm of the mindset that most everything he learns in scouting , as well as all the intended benefits of the program are more geared towards his adult life AFTER he moves out of the house. Know what I mean? Pretty much most( but by no means all) of what he will get out of Scouting wil probably be used or take place when I am not around to see it, wether thats because he's at school. at work, or at his house with his wife and kids. AS a parent, I am basically an umbrella for him. Or maybe a shining light. I always put out light as a parent, so because of my light, I cannot see how well he handles himself in the dark or uses his own light. Does that even make sense to any of you? I know what I am thinking! LOL! Do you? So yeah, some kids are just gonna go down the wrong road. Some are gonna be horrible rotten people who will have a 50/50 chance of ending up in jail. And some are gonna all but be saints without the scouting influence. It's the ones inbetween that we ought to be looking out for. Only thing is, we can't tell how they will turn out, so we treat them all as if they are the middle crowd. Oh, one more thing: I am having fun while doing it too. I do not apologize for it either! Damn! This is a great thread!

I agree with signatures. We have 5 authorized: CubMaster, Committee Chair, Treasurer, Asst Treasurer, and COR Checks require at least 2 signatures, and just in case somebody isn't available ( out of town, away at work, sick, etc...) we can still write important checks . I'd recomment either switching banks or creating a new account entirely. Open a new account and start depositing all new money there. Don't close out the old account for a few months ..just to make sure all ckecks have cleared, account is current at bank, etc. You may not ever fifure out what went where due to record keeping, but in a month or two, you will know how much $$$ you have - wether it's the right amount or not. One more thing we instituted just this year: Leaders are authorized to spend up to $25.00 (without prior committee/leadership authorization) per month for a PACK FUNCTION. Basically meaning if we have a pack get together such as a cookout and run short on drinks, ice, hamburger buns,or whatever, instead of trying to get a check or petty cash, a leader can just run to the store and buy what is needed and turn in a receipt for reimbursment. But it has to be FOR THE PACK, not any den or just individuals. Every penny over $25.oo is considered a donation. Again,this is without leadership or committee authorization. (edit for) It may be obvious,but by leadership or committee authorization,I mean having a meeting and Comm and leaders voting on itr.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Go to ebay. That's what sad! It's a sad commentary when the organazation that issues the Eagle has to enact such rules becayse some who reached that rank may abuse the honor of the system. Again, go to ebay. That's why it is the way it is. Blame the people trying to make a buck, not National.

Yeah, NJ, but in all fairness, RedFlyer did say "... I would appreciate any opinions." I imagine RedFlyer is just like most of us: Thought hard and long about it without just making a thoutless decision. But like most of the rest of us , RedFlyer is only human and values another opinion based on the fact that..no matter how much we think we might have every angle and scenerio covered, somebody, somewhere might just think of something we didn't. Somebody might bring us some little tiny detail that completely changes the way we look at something. RedFlyer wanted opinions. RedFlyer got them. There is no contract or legal obligation to follow them.

Well,I wouldn't do anything too big as it will only dull down and lessen the later ceremony you have. Not sure when you have your pack eetings normally, but maybe you can move it to a Friday night and have an extra presentation ater the normal recognition. Buy an arrow for each AOL scout. Break it down into 4 equal segments .Starting at the feather end, paint the first segment orange, the second yellow,the third light blue, the fourth segment dark blue. This represents the colors of the ranks Tiger(orange), Wolf(yellow), Bear(light blue),and Webelos(dark Blue). If a AOL recipient didn't do Tiger, leave that color off. Now, within each color,paint a small band around the arrow: 1 Gold band for gold arrow points recieved and 1 silver band fopr each silver arrow point recieved for that rank. If a scout did not earn an arrow point at each particular rank, leave it blank. Basically, this represents thie scouting accomplishments as a timeline. You can mount it or not. NOw, it sounds like alot, but with 2 or 3 adults, this can all be done in about an hour and a half. After you go about your regular pack meeting and hand out the usual recognition, ask everybody to stay a bit longer for an extra presentation. Have all the AOL sit in anarea by themselves, say a little bit about what earning the AOOL means, Why you are giving the arrows and what the colors and bands signify. Then call each boy forward to recieve his personal Arrow. If you want to list that a scout earned this many arrow points in each rank, that's pretty cool to. Afterward, maybe a basic sheet cake with an arrow on it, some chips and dip and drinks. Nothing too fancy as it will take away from the AOL ceremony/ and or Crossover ceremony (we do our one behind the other)put on by the Aorrow of Light scouts.

We usually ask the Order of the Arrow guys to hold a ceremony for the AOL scouts. They do a really nice job of meeting, planning and executing the ceremony. Plus the Cub Scouts are really impressed with the fact that older scouts do the entire thing themselves.

SctDad. I personally don't it matters if it was a "big" difference or a "small" one. That kid you helped learn to shoot the bow and arrow...He might be the next Olympic Bow Champion. That kid who barely spoke might become a news anchoror press secratary for the White House one day. I helped a boy with BB gun. He shot 5 times and didn't even come close to the target. He then told me: "See, I suck at everything!" I had him wait while I fetched his target. When he wasn't looking, I took a nail out of my pocket and poked a hole about where the 8 or 9 would e on the target. I then showed him. He changed his attitude tright then, gave me a high five and then a hug. Later, he wanted to shoot again, so we did. He hit the target all 5 times..once in the bull's eye. That kid only needed a dose of confidence. Did I make a difference? yep! Sure did. Was it a big difference or small? Who knows, he's still got alot of growing and living to do!

We do not have an issue or problem in out pack with this, but was just wondering for curiosity's sake: 1) If your pack or troop is predominantly military family, how do you handle routine and sudden military deployments and departures? 2)Has this ever cause a camping trip or event to be canceled or delayed? 3) Are there more or less behavioral issues with the youth Our pack CO is about 15 to 18 miles from Marine Corps Base Camp Lejune, NC. Our Committee Chair is active USMC and I think that two dads are also active military( one Marine, one Coastie), but that's it. Again, just curious.

As long as there is some sort of ventilation, and no snakes or spiders..then it's all okay!

Every church has some sort of policy board centered at some headquarters that makes policy and procedure as a whole. But there is still variation by region. It may not necessarily be an open and conscious thought to have that variaition, but alot of factors take place. I realize , that what I mean by regional in not coming across as clear: I am talking mindset. People from different geographical regions do not think the same way, even if members of the same religion. Again, as an example, compare a hillbilly from the mountains of W Virginia, with somebody from New Orleans, San Fransisco, Seattle, Washington DC, Houston, and Salt Lake City. Tradition, economy, the mixture of people ( or lack of) all make a difference. I am willing to be that if you took actual members and talked to thm from these various areas. you'd find some people to be more tolerable to other lifestyles ( not just gay , okay) than others. Another example: Polygamy vs monogamy. Depending on what group or sect of LDS ( ar many offshots and avariatuion) not all think exactly the smae. So when and where did the difference come from? Different people within the same group having variaton in opinion. Might be the San Francisco based LDS church doesn't care about the gay bar 2 blocks over as long as the bar is not too loud or boisterous. But the Salt Lake or W Virginia LDS church might activly seek shut that bar down by pickiting it, while the Nee Orleans LDS unit might burn the bar down while it's closed and empty. Not saying any LDS unit would specifically do that, but saying that in different geogrphical areas...people think differently under the umbrella of the same organazation. Baptist church is the same way. Southern Baptists and Norther Baptits do not necessarily think or act the same . Episcipals too. The policy board of the main office said "This is what we are gona do!". yet not every church has done so. Anthing from complete dissagreement to slight variations have resulted.

Congratulations! Sound like you have the quality indeed! Those are impressive numbers!

YEP! I sure did. From Friday afternoons when my son got in the truck with me until Sunday afternoon when we got home. Like I said, after I got home,I'dlight up til my face probably looked like it was on fire, but I held off the whole weekend. Might be part of the reason I was able to quit cold turkey one morning when I woke up.

Gern, It may be that the LDS from your are have indeed decided that the will drop. But doesn't mean all LDS will. Technically, I am Episcopal. There was alot of infighting and cliques becasue some were all for gay pastors and some were dead set against it. Churches torn apart and some dropping from mainstream. Your local LDS may be in a similar situaton.

"Isn't the Internet fun? Whatever did we do before it?" Well, some of us had lives. Hey Pack, can you paste a link to support that statement? LOL!

Nah, more than 45 minutes. By geographic, I meant ...well...say a LDS unit from the mountains of West Virgina probably have alot of differences froma LDS unit in San Francisco. But so would a non LDS troop in the same circumstances. Point being, that the LDS unit that is located 1 mile from my pack may not represent or be similar to the behavior of any other LDS unit. Something in the water, air, etc...

I hate blanket statements..allthough I am probablt guilty of it too on occasion. I have no experience dealing with anybody who is LDS in a scout setting, but know a few people who are. Not best friends, and do not hang out on a daily basis, but know them fairly well. So, maybe as a scout, any dealins I have withan LDS unit is indicitive of what LDS units in that ARA do or it's a regional thing. You know how it works: Southerners are different from northerners who are different from Californians. We act differently, due to region, culture, whatever. It may be that while somewhat similar, LDS units ( as with any other unit) may not be all exactly alike. Just like anybody else. My pack may not do as your does in the same set of instances.

I want to tell you something that has stuck with me since I was around 8 years old. That was 31 years ago, but still fresh in my mind as if it happened yesterday. Bear with me for a few minutes. Back when I was 8 years old, I'd go to church with my grandma and grandpa on occasion. A few aunts and uncles were there too. Now, I guess technically, I am a non active Episcipalion...meaning this was an Episcipal Chrcu. A rather dry and stuffy one, but maybe they all were back then. So one Sunday, they performed communion. Not sure why it wasn't every Sunday, but it wasn't. So here I am siting beside my grandma and everybody in the pew stands up and walks to the front and kneels to accept bread, wine and prayer. What does my 8 year oild self do? I go with them. I accept wine, bread, get the "May God be with you" blessing and return to my pew like verybody else. Later, we all go back to my grandmas house for Sunday dinner. I get the third degree about how I insulted the church, the father and quite possibly God. My grandma and aunt are embarrassed and mortified in what I did. Mt grandad ...well, he laughed because he thought it was funny and said no harm was done. The whole conversation lasted less than 3 minutes, and then it was forgotten. Nobody ever made any more of it, nor did they care. It was if it never happened. Now, I am not traumatized by it, I don't wake up in cold sweats at night, not do I have issues with churches. I actually think it was a very educational experience that shows there is a unique difference between religion, organized religion and personal belief. And spiritually, I think I am better for it. BUT...I will always remember that day. My point is, Some scouts wil always remember something about what happened while scoutimng. Maybe that beltloop, or rank patch when they earned iyt. Maybe a funny skit that they watched or performed. Maybe the first time they ever slept in a tent out in the woods. Cold be how proud they felt for earning an activity badge or award. Whatever it is, it made a difference in their life.

We try our hardest to keep expenses to a minimum. We try to balance a great program with a economical one. We camp twice a year, with the cost being $15.00 per scout and $5 per parent. This covers cost of campsite and food plus a few beltloops awards for kids. This year, we are holding our fall campout at the CO. Big field out back that is large enough for 8 soccer fields to be used at same time. Some woods surround it. Not true forrest, but will do. We are camping there so only cost is food. So anyways, we have $40.00 dues at begining of year. $15.00 for BSA $3.00 for BSA insurance $22.00 for pack ( equipment, awards, pins, beltloops, rank patches, etc) Now, ewe do offer camperships and support for those who need it. Thing is, we don't want to chase off parents who don't like the cost, but we also explain to them that those same parents will pay from $60.00 to $100.00 for their son to participate in a sport that only lasts 2 1/2 months compared to a year of scouting. We also have other activities that are seperately priced out: camping on USS YorkTown for example. Yeah, it's fun, but an extracirricular activity. Blue and Golds are pot luck instead of catering out. Same for PWD and Christmas parties. As for fundraising, popcorn does "okay", but thats about it. We have two BBQ chicken dinners a year. One in spring, one in fall. The boys actually like working this one: serving food and selling tickets. We go to a local Lowes home improvement store and sell tickets. We make more off unsolicited donations than ticket sales. The best part is that the boys get a hundred compliments a day on being scouts and looking good in uniform. The boys eat it up! So, even if mom or dad doesn't have the time because of whatever reason, there are usually 4 or 5 adults as well as DLs and ADLs who will watch the boys . We consider it a den activity. We do not record who sells the tickets when everybody is together.

We live in an average size( for NC )county. Takes from 15 minuts to an hour to drive completely through one depending on the direcction and traffic. my distric is mostly rural, but also happens to have one of the fastest growing cosatal areas along the US hiway 17 area, Anyways, one of the first things I did after becoming Cub Master was to put a bug in the ear of our DE about holding some additional training nights. Matter of fact, I tried to get one at out pack CO. My CO is about 20 minutes from where the training is held. About 3 miles south oif my Co is another pack. About 13 miles north of my CO is a brand new pack some of our members just started. I figured this would be as oo a reason as any to get training out our Co as it would be more centralized and closer to most of the participants. My line of thinking as this: If it's closer.more people will attend. KNow what I mean? Ever have to rush home from work and usually hardly have time to put on a clean shirt before heading out to the class? Forget taking a shower or eating...that has to wait until after class - which means everybody gets to smell you all night! Generally, about half our area leaders are into some form of construction or general contracting/woodworking. So I figured that if you had a class that was closer to home, you'd have less driving time which meant more cleanup/ eating time. That might be the thing that gets you to attend. I had 8 interestied leaders in my pack, 7 interested ( new) leaders from the new pack and around 5 ish interested from the pack a few miles down the road. I gave this info to the DE who was going to try and do something. That's as far as it got. I don't know if it was the DE, the Council, the instructors or who..but it never materialized. Our council will hold training towards the end of Sept for leader specific and again in Feb. Granted, things are changed since it's online, but before that.....no. WEll, there was BALOO, POW WOW, Outdoor Leader and Wood Badge scheduled each year, plus many camporees, parent/son camping, Webelees( That what it's called right? lol! ) etc...

Gary, accepting Basemenst version is indeed true, I have to completely side with Basement in saying that there was no cliqueishness going on. The only thing I see is rudeness, arrogance and the over cofidence of being young. From my experience with dealing with people who have this attitude, Basement could have brought out boks and guides all day long to no avail in convincing this CM that he was wrong.