Scoutfish

I think this brings up a great point: Intent versus actuallity. I do not think that by being Generic, that any service or Scout's Own was meant to imply that all gods are equal. I do not think theye were meant to be generic in the sense that any religion felt watered down. I believe the original intent behind having a "generic" service at camps or holding a non denominational or faith specific service is to teach respect and ...ummm...getting alongness. Sorry, drawing a blank on the right word there. Know what I mean? Your religion or beliefs are never secondary to mine, nor are they on the same level of eqaulity. Yours ( in at least your prespective, should be considered higher, better or most true. And that's great! But as far as having compassion and respect, you recognize that I feel the same way about my religious views. And the next guys, and the next, and the next. I do not need to feel for or even give credence to another scouts religion...I just need to respect his right to have it and to respect his right to feel it's importance . Yeah, a generic service could be insulting to some, but not to me. Why? Because I learned a long time ago, that it's stupid and a waste of time to take offense to things that were not meant or intended to be offensive. Actions are not always so important as their intentions. We all make mistakes, things get taken differently from what we meant them to. This make sense to anybody? You ever sy something and meant it as a compliment, but it was taken offensively as an insult? Well, if you ever have conversations with women...I know you have! Anyways. having a non denominational service or generic worship is not meant to be insulting. It was not meant to water down anybody's beliefs. It was meant to "not choose one over another in importance or validity. It was done with the intent of respect. Generic services may suck, but they were intended for the right reason. It's only as offensive as you let it be.

Nah, it ain't cool asking the scouts for money. I figure that - since the service, Scout's Own, or whatever you want to call it - is part of the camp program. It's sanctioned by BSA and the camp too. It's on camp property , held at a pre dertimined time during camp activities...and while not specificallly written down, it is a somewhat expected attendance activity. It should be covered under camp expenses and camp budget.

Eagle92. They are working on it. Kim Simcox - services director( 910-251-5797 ) - said that if all goes well, they will be able to host overnighters in about 2 years. Right now they don't because the AC system is adequate enought for a handfull of visitors in any one spot, but not sufficent enough for a whole group. I understand that too as the AC works enough to make it bearable but barely so. I'd like to go to Patriots Point myself. Last year, it came up with too short of notice for me to pull it off. (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Museum..Yeah, the battleship is a great one! Every kid in the pack has been to the local aqarium at least 4 times for school by now. I did mention Fort Macon State Park http://www.ncparks.gov/Visit/parks/foma/main.php several times, but the parents don't seem to be interested in such a drive ( only two hours). But I guess we are doing more things this year and better too, so I'll go with it for now and step it up some more next year.

I thought about a swim party. I considered it ...especially living on the coast ...we have both the ocean ans waterway with plenty of shallow areas and huge sandbars. And almost non existant current in places. But then again...we live on the coast. Anybody scout can do that anyway, any time, any place. Some of our families have nice in ground pools. Most hav a above ground temp pool. About a 1/3rd have boats of some sort or waverunners. Trying to have a swim party (in my pack) might be as practical as selling pig poop to a pig farmer!

This is actually intended for the packs that do not run a 12 MONTH/FULL YEAR program. My pack takes a summer break. To be honest, I do not know why. I am not condoning, nor am I promoting it, just saying it's been that way since long before I became a member - and I honestly do not know why they chose that program over a full time program. Could be the leaders wanted a break, could be the scouts or the scouts families. Could be: "Hey! It's summer, what do you expect?" So anyways, we do have at least 1 fun day activity each month. I just took over as Cubmaster, and somehow "earned" being in charge of the fun days. That's cool! I don't mind at all. I heard the other fun days were "ok, but nothing spectacular". So I wanted to do something different. In June, we went fishing at a local sound side park & dock/ pier. We had about 10 cub scouts show up with some siblings.Fished, played, ate ice cream sandwhiches. I was dissapointed in the turn out. But then I learned from some of the older membership and leaders that having "that many" show up was actually impressive in comparison to years past. Yesterday, we had our July fun day. We went to Moores Creek Nattional Battlfield. Had a (pre arranged) tour and program put on by the National Park Service. Had a Ranger guided tour too. Afterward, we cooked hotdogs and let the kids run around. This time we had around 20 scouts show up and a total of 40 people including parents and siblings. Everybody said they really had a great time. Next month, we go to the battleship memorial/museum USS NORTH CAROLINA BB-55. Waitig to see how many show up. Okay, I know that as a pack that doesn't traditionallly run a 12 month schedule, I shouldn't exopect everybody to show up. Considering I am competeing against the beach( we are coastal) pool parties, summer camps, family vacations, and even various scout camps , jamborees, Webelorees, scout day camps, weekend overnighters, etc....plus various parks and recs programs......well, I guess we are doing pretty damn good. That and we live in the humidity capitol of the eastcoast. Sometimes it's just hard to go outside! So, if your pack/troop runs a 9 month program: What do you do for fun days? How many show up on average? Is this your normal amount? Are more/ less scouts attending? (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Yeah Beavah, It is weak, but - from my point of view - If the kids first/only exposure to communally is at camp..there are bigger problems.....just the same if a kids first exposure to maners or personal responcibility was to be at camp...Mom and dad are the bigger problem no? And if that's the case, Even if the Pope himself performs Mass at a Scout's Own, the kid in question will still come away no different.

I also meant to say: You should exppect some scouts who are more comfortable with you, more familiar and more trusting of you too. That helps alot!

Cool! Your still sticking to it instead of steppping down! First of all, parent involvement, while still important, will be different. With Wolves, you do not have a "parent buddy" or whatever you like to call them. You kinda transition to more ofa teacher witha class for lack of a better way to describe it. The scouts are a little bit more responcible for what they do, how they listen and how they act. But they are also older, so they connect the dots alot better. You should already be familiar with great resources: Cub Scout how to book: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/hispanic/english/33832_WEB.pdf Cub Scout activity book ( at you local scout store) Boy Scout Trail has lots of rank and age appropriate ideas, crafts and activities as welas ceremonies and lessons: http://www.boyscouttrail.com/ But in reality, having served a year already, you probably have the best ideas of what to do with the boys in your den .

Any of you ever make wine in science class? We did, but it wasn't a big deal back then. It was just a part of science class and learning about fermentation. Of course, as just the right amount time went by, we'd come to school and find the experiment gone. Teacher said an "unfortunate accident" happened. Cleaning crew must have "knocked" the experiment on the floor and ruined it. Try it today and you have broken who knows how many school and federal rules in the ZERO tolerance policy.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

dScouter15, Are you replying to me, John or Beavah? As for me, I never said do away with anything. I am only saying that Scouts own is not supposed to be a full fledged church service no more than sleeping in a tent in a sleeping bag is supposed to your full fledged house. The whole situation is a temporay deal. A get away from the normal routine of life excursion. We cook differently, we sleep and shelter ourselves differently. We do so knowing it's not our regular routine nor is it a attempt to try and mainatin everything up to it's 100 percent on par for daily life. Scouts own is just a break from the break from life to give some time to worship or reflect. It's not a fullfledged church service, worship, or whatever your religion asks of you. But it does keep you from avoiding or missing any participation of your fatith completely. But again, from my standpoint, faith comes from within, not what you do on the outside. In some sense of what way John views the world, I myself can feel closer to God by walking through the woods, watching the sunrise over the ocean or just enjoying the natural ( meaning non man made) beauty of the world....not following or conforming to some rite or ceremony created by man. Now, I say some sense as I do mnot mean to imply that John does this exact thing.

REally? spending 10, 15, 20 or 30 minutes cost a bunch of time and effort? It never costed me a thing. As far as time. After spending a whole week, or even just a 3 day weekend, up to 30 minutes is next to nothing. Now, I'm not sure about other packs, but we do Scout's own after breakfast and before pack out/ LNT check.

Twocubdad, I think you might be on the same wave length as me. Now, the way I see it, it's not a full flrdged worship for anybody, not even close! And I know that most of you get that too. But it sounds like it's being made more into something it's not even supposed to be. Ever go somewhere with your kid when they were young? I ean really young? When my son was 2, and we went shopping for groceries, basic household needs or just visited friends or family, we'd take along some animal crakers, or even Vienna sausages for him to snack on. They were not lunch! They were not a meal either. Just a very basic amd minimal amount of the most basic nourishment to hold him over. Ever take a drink with you while you drive somewhere? Coffee? Water? Soda? It's not your lunch. It's not breakfast. It's not even an emergency ration. It's just something to hold you over or at the very least ...wet your palate. To keep your mouth from going dry. So, the way I see it, a Scout's Own is not even intended to be a substitute service. Just something to "wet your palate" and keep your spirit from going dry.

Merlyn, You ever consider that it's not a club of scouting people who exclude athiests, but rather a club of people who believe in a god who like scouting stuff? Isn't that the nature of all clubs? Corvette clubs do not exclude other cars..it's a club for people who like corvettes instead of other cars. Even AA wasn't intended as an exclude "whoever" group. Rather, it is a club of people who have the same opinion or view.

My bad...let me rephrase something: Our Tigers went from 8 or 9 to 40, but we created more dens. Same thing for Wolves and Webelos I and II. The Bear den had 24 in one den. I wanted to split it and had the blessing of the pack minus the Bear den leader ( specifically his wife). Well, due to that DL and his wife starting another pack, we will now have 3 Dl available for the (now) Webelos. Didn't mean to imply that all dens were of a great number.

My entire scouting experience can be summed up into a hair more than 2 years of being active. I started out as a reluctant Wolf parent who became an active Wolf parent who became a Wolf volunteer who became a Bear ADL who planned and trained to be a Webelos ( first year)DL, but became CM instead. So my point is, I have not hung out with a bunch of other packs through the years. I had no concept of what a "normal size" or "average size" a pack was. At roundup last year, we had around 120 active scouts AFTER figuring in those who would cross over to Boy Scouts. Of course, as the year goes on, you lose some scouts to other activities, you lose some who were expecting something different, lose some to another pack that is actually closer to where that scout lives, or those other reasons: Somebody owes over $500.00 in popcorn money - so you never see them again, somebody did not like what someboidy else said, did or proposed, politics, etc... Anyways, Like I said, we had around 120 active scouts due to roundup. Our Tiger group went from 8 or 9 boys to 40 boys Wolves , My son's den alone had 24 boys. Now, I figured this was normal until I see pictures on various web sites or read posts in here. I see dens with 4 or 5 boys. I see packs with a total of 20 boys. Now, I am not knocking any size in any way at all. I just figured ours was normal sized. Matter of fact, we( our pack membership) are spread over a wide area and surrounded by 3 or 4 other packs. One of our den leaders is breaking aay as I speak and creating another pack. I really, really hate to see him go as he was a great leader, but honestly, having our membership drop some is actually a blessing if you ask me. Okay,I am rambling on ( big surprise huh? LOL! ) So how many boys are in your pack?

I'd like that alot. But as far as creating a page, I'm just thinking viewable and joinable for my pack only. Not meaning to sound snobbish by any means, but just planning somewhere safe for the youth to talk online about...whatever I guess. I mean, most of the adults have FB pages already and relax a bit between ourselves.

So I'm thinking of starting a facebook page for my pack. Of course, there would be all kinds of considerations: First and foremost, I think the privacy settings would have to be maxed out. Only actual members of the group could see any posts or pictures of those who are in the group. All members would have to be members of our pack and approval comes only by admin verification. Only members of our pack could view photos of group members. I'm looking to create a place for our pack where you could hang out and yak it up, just shoot the breeze and what not. We have a great pack web page, but other than updates, activity calendars or info, there is nothing else. No community to it. So I'm looking for your experiences - good and bad - about how you did it. I'm not asking IF I should do it, so no offense intended when I say I don't want to hear an opinion of wether I should or shouldn't. I just want to hear who did and what you'd recogmend based on your errors and finer points. Thanks! Mark

Merlyn asked: "Which James Dale do you mean? The gay one?" So only for clarification's sake, I ask Merlyn: Why do you say "the gay one" ? How do you know he's gay?

A letter reminding of the policies of drug/ alchohol annd other substance abuse before EVERY trip is a great idea...but a contract>? Nah, you don't need it, you already have it by way of application. G2SS has spelled out in no uncertain terms what BSA's policy is with alchohol, drugs, substances, etc.. As far as the fate of this kid, I wouldn't call the cops to send him to jail. Not sure if my earlier comment about the cops was misunderstood or not, but as an active community memebr and former fire rescue person, I have seen cops have freindly, yet meaningful conversations on a personal level ( meaning not an official action or paper trail) to youth who have strayed abd crossed the line. More times that not, that talk scares the crap out of a kid and sets him straigh whereas going to lock up "may" introduce him to things that are bigger and better than he dreamed of. No Ev, I do not ,mean that everybody who goes to jail get worse, but you know that if you go to Juvie, you have to step up and be tougher and meaner to survive. Myself, Had a talk with a certain police chief when I was younger. Like I said I "USED" to smoke some weed myself. As a scouter, I thing guidance and mentoring is the order of the day, not arrest.

Of course, if the accused has been active in the trop for any amount of trime or is a well enough of an aqqaintance with the SM, ASM or other adult leadership....then there ought to be some signs in behavioral change to some extent. Acting differently or being out of charachter somewhat.

Ooops! I meant to say : You know ANOTHER reason why somebody gives an anonymous tip? I was thinking it that way even though I didn't type it! Sure, I have no doubt that a parent ( seems more likely thier influence than just a kids) could accuse "that other kid" of doing drugs..especially if "that other kid" stod in the way of their own "perfect angel" from holding a POR or getting the "deserved recognition" that "the other kid" was preventing. But what if the tip is true? I'd rather be safe than sorry.

MY understanding of it is this: Boys are not atheist. They are not religious. They are jusy boys. They do not know what they are and legally, they are minors. Kinda like my son: Today, LEGO is the best thing EVER! Tommorrow, his Playstation3 is the best thing EVER! Next week, whatever comes out at the store is......THE BEST THING EVER! Sop a boy may profess complete atheism today, and might decide to join a monastary tommorow. Simply put, they don't have aclue what they want, what they plan to do or what their beliefs are. So, the youth are neither atheist or believers......they are just youth. Youth are welcome. And just from personal observation: Ever see a kid who swears that the bible says "X". And if you ask him how he knows, the only answer is that his parents told him so. His beliefs are more likely to be his parents and not his own. Same for the whole Chevy vs Ford vs Dodge arguement: Whatever dad, his dad,and his dad before him drove is the best truck ever - no doubt about it! Under 18 and they are just youth. After they turn 18, they can be whatever they say they are.

Yeah, truer words were never spoken! I mean, no disrespect, but this is almost funny. You can hide a joints worth of weed almost anywhere . That small amount can be hidden in a sock that you are wearing, inside the inner band of a scout cap, even in the rolled up edges of a neckerchief. Yeah, I used to smoke some weed back in the day when I was an 18 year old "grown up who knew everything". Drank a lifetime of beer before I turned 21 too. In the end, it comes down to this: You are responcible for anything tha happens to the other youth on that outing if you just totally ignore the anoymous tip. And while we are speaking about it, take of yourmature, leader, grown up mom and dad thinking caps and put on a youth thinking cap. You know why somebody gives an anonymous tip? Because they have a friend who is about to do something wrong, and they want to prevent it from happening, yet they do not want to lose the friendship of that friend or cause friction with that friend or considered to be a tattletale or narc by the rest of the troop. No, It DOESN'T matter how correct or in the right that youth would be He'd still be sovcially outcast by the other boys in the troop. If nothing else, anonymous tips are better than complacency or apathy from the other boys. Get the dog at the meeting place under the guise of a "demonstration event". See what the dog does or how it reacts. As non law enforcement , you can make a decision to make a learning experience out of this. You can even call in the law before hand. Explain it to the officer(s). From my experience, most officers will give a lecture to anybody if they think that will steer ( read scare) them straight. No paper work to fill out either. Not every situation is a call the cops or face a slander suit situation.

Gern, That's not what I got out of Vol's post. What I read was this: A parent did not realize the religious connection to boy scoutimng and when she did, SHE ( not her son or any BSA leadership) decided that scouting what not something she or her son could be a part of. At that point, Vol said" Well, I understand that , thanks anyways for at least considering us. Vol didn't argue about wether the mom's choice was right or wrong or that she should cave in to others wishes. Just said "we respect your thoughts on this". So , there are no horses to be held, and no statements were said saying repent or be expelled.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)