Scoutfish

From the adult application( http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/524-501.pdf ) : Leadership Requirements The applicant must possess the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to youth. The applicant must also be the correct age, subscribe to the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle, and abide by the Scout Oath or Promise, and the Scout Law. AND Qualification. Adult citizens, or adult noncitizens who reside within the country, may register with the Boy Scouts of America in any capacity if they agree to abide by the Scout Oath or Promise and the Scout Law, to respect and obey the laws of the United States of America, and to subscribe to the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle. All leaders must be 21 years of age or older, except assistant Scoutmasters, assistant den leaders, assistant Cubmasters, assistant Webelos den leaders, and assistant Varsity Scout coaches, who must be 18 or older. So it still comes down to being an adult, wether 18 or 21 years old....not youth.

"Parts" Well,the application isn't in parts. It is a whole application that does not require youth membership to adhere to the DRP. Look on the application where it says " Requirements for joining" Read under neath, beside and past the part titled "Requirements for joining" Nowhere, I REPEAT NOWHERE does it say youth have to follow the DRP to join. You can take parts, and qoute them, but any fool can take "parts" and independantly..make them read anything you want. You can take parts from AA writing and policy and prove the existance of God if you want to, but that would be stupid to take the time and tell atheists that their own policies say God does indeed exist because "If you read "that" part." Remember, there is the truth, THE WHOLE TRUTH, and nothing but the truth. Partial is also incomplete and not the whole truth. George Washington could say : "Father, I did not saw down your tree." and he would be 100 percent truthful wouldn't he? But that does not mean he didn't fell the tree, chop it down or cause it to lay parallel to the ground. Show me the line that states that youth have to agree to the DRP and follow it in order to recieve a certificate of membership. Likewise, find anywhere that states a child ( using the under age 18 definition) can make such an agreement legally.

Well, I change my direction to say: "Standout" just might be a matter of personal interpretation. Just as in the fact, somebody somewhere thought "Ishtar" was a great movie! Great enough to produce, that is. LOL! Seriously, somebody liked it!

And didn't R. Lee Ermy's standout role start with "Hamburger Hill" ? And while not related, Robert Duvall in Apocalypse Now was great! "I love the smell of napalm in the morning!"

WRONG Merlyn! You are not quoting anything from any youth application! Read it again VERY CLOSELY!: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/524-406A.pdf Now Merlyn...that application does say: "The chartered organization must provide an adequate and safe meeting place and capable adult leadership, and must adhere to the principles and policies of the BSA." That would be the 3rd paragraph of the second page ( or first page if you consider the previous page a cover page) AND...In the first paragraph of the right hand column of the second page...it says: " Leadership is restricted to qualified adults who subscribe to the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle, the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, and the BSA Standards of Leadership." AND....The second paragraph on the right hand side of the second page says: "Excerpt from the Declaration of Religious Principle The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership." But it doesn't say a youth has to subscribe to or agree to or follow the DRP in order to join. Not in any way, shape, or form. So Merlyn..You were saying : "Beavah, I'm only quoting what the BSA's own youth membership form says, and it says you have to subscribe to the precepts of the DRP to be granted membership." But you are wrong! Just look and see for yourself. " If that's only for adults, why does it say "persons" and not "adults"? If it isn't for all membership, why doesn't it say "adult membership" or "leadership" instead of "membership"? If it's only for adult membership, why is it on the youth membership form? *Leadership is restricted to qualified adults who subscribe to...* OOOPS! It does say "leadership" and "qualified adults". And if you go to the actual application part on page 5, you will not see any statement asking, telling,or demanding that any youth member agree to or promise to follow the DRP.

Hooboy? What religion are they? LOL!

Merlyn, you are full of it! Any scout and scouter knows that avowed athiest cannot join. Big suprise their. But in your original post to LIBob, you did not say that, Nope! You defined Taoists as athiesta nd said they would not be welcome under the DRP. No, I'm not quoting you, just recapping your arguement. You did not specify at that time ONLY athiest Taoists. I guess you didn't because it would have been a moot point. Athiest anybody is covered in BSA...which you claim is "The BSA's religious discrimination is widely reported in the media, and on their own websites" ( which by the way blows holes in other threads where you claim BSA is hiding this and lying - since it is on their own website! and widely reported in the media! ) So, yes we can read the WRITEN word. But in the end..every scouter who replied on this thread said Taoists are welcome! You can try to change that all you want, but will fail! We are BSA and we have spoken. We have said welcome! PERIOD!

LIBob, You know what's funny? I know some "deeply religious" folks who crack on Bhuddists and other religions because they have more than one god. Yet these people theselves have never even cracked a book or took time to talk to anybody from those religions. These fine folks say that it's blasphemous to worship more than one god, then turn around and talk about praying to not only God and Jesus, but to joseph, Mary, The pope, Moses, St. Christopher,St. this and St.that too. We talk about the "Father, son,spirit and holy ghost( which comes out to 4 in others eyes...just saying). So what is to say that the other religions are not doing the same? Their saints and holy figures? We have God himself, and argue over his true name. God is almighty, yet sensd angels and archangels to do his work. No, I'm not blasting or making fun of any "western sense of God" but just pointing out how funny it is that we find fault with others religions, yet ours may look identivcal in set up to theirs in their eyes. Westerners may quite possibly and reasonably looked upon hippocrits to other religions...and I can't really say I blame them for that. I am religious. I have my beliefs, but man has screwed up organized religion and made it a political /power control thing. But that's just my opinion.

What? What is that noise? Do I hear tap dancing? Merlyn, are you dancing around your arguement? You came in here trying to tell LIBob that Taoists would not be welcome, then saying that BSA and it's members woulds notb allow them - EVEN though every BSA AFFILIATED scouter in here opened their arms. Then you tried to define what a Taoists was and believed to LIBob who pretty much could be considered the leading authority (at least in the sense we are arguing here amongst us and our experience with Taoists comp[ared to his relationships with them)on Taoism as far as we are concerned. Then you back pedal and tap dance by saying "athiest Taoists". But let's get real, that'slike saying "athiest Mormons " or Athiest Catholics"...It just doesn't work! I lie? Nah, you keep pulling out references to Wester sense of God every time you make an arguement of BSA policy. You keep saying how BSA would not accept them, yet every BSA member is opening thier arms and saying "Come on in!" So why do you say that I am wrong about accepting Taoists when I - a registerd BSA member in good standing , and a scouter - am welcoming them? Liar? Uh-uh, I don't think so!

LIBob, but you can have fun with Merlyn!

Merlyn, you are losing all argumentive credibility: "But you're ignoring that bit about "no entity in the Western sense of God can possibly exist." " No, I'm not ignoring it. But you are ignoring that LIBob SAID THAT, NOT BSA. LIBob could say "Taoists who have only 9 fingers are banned from BSA"...and you can qoute it every post you make...but it would still be only LIBob's statement, not BSA. Come on man...pay attention to WHO you are quoting when you quote the phrase: "no entity in the Western sense of God can possibly exist." No matter how tou spin it or twist it, it still isn't a BSA statemnt or policy, nor is it in the DRP

By the way Merlyn...where have you been? Kinda missed you..hadn't seen you around in a while. I enjoy argueing with you!

LIBob, I am not trying to imply you made any arguments about Taoists, just saying that Merlyn qouted parts of your original post, but trid to pass them off as something that BSA said instead of being part of your original post. Merlyn, Find the exact words where LIBob mentioned 1 single Taosit as an athiest. And yeah, I could google athiest taoist, but we are not talking googling. we are talking about the people that LiBob mentioned in his post. I could easily google anything, but the arguement is about LIBob's post. So yeah, I can read just fine. But "reading implies" looking at what was typed, not what YOU thought it might mean or what any of us could google. Now if you could read...you would see that LIBob did not mention athiests at all. I bet BSA won't allow athiests from Saturn either, but who thought they would? Hate to say it Merlyn, but you brought up something that wasn't being discussed, or broached at all. Matter of fact, you brought up a non issue.

Merlyn, I can read just fine. You do understand the concept of "read" don't you? Now, if you meant :"assume or use "ESP" then your arguement migh almost be valid...but you didn't. You said "Read" which I did. Nowhere...I repeat...NOWHERE did you say "Taoists who are athiests". But you did say : "And, of course, Taoists who are the sort that believe that since no god is above "The Way," then no entity in the Western sense of God can possibly exist can't join, period." But let me point out two mistakes YOU stated. First off, You quoted LIBob again. LIBob said "No god is above "the way".." He did not that they did not believe in a god, just that he/she/it wasn't above "the way" . Or I can make it easier for you" "The way"is higher than god. Secondly, you keep refering to a westernsense of god as a standard of religion for the BSA that the DRP specificaly does not state. Matter of fact, the DRP says : ".....No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training...." And please...This part didn't say the first sentance was overruled, but the first sentance didn't declare itself as the sole definition and ruling key to all of the DRP either!

"Why are you trying to dance around this, anyway? Don't you want the BSA to keep out Taoists who are atheists?" That's just it...I'm NOT DANCING! I stated VERY CLEARLY AND PLAINLY that Taoists would be welcome. No spin, no twisting of words, no dancing. You..you, not me - not anybody else ...but you = qouted LIBob words about "then no entity in the Western sense of God can possibly exist." And please tell me how you came to the conclusion that Taoists are athiests. Nothing I read on this site or Wikipedia says that Taoists are athiests..only that they do not suscribe to the western idea of god. They have their own version of what it means...which incidentally, is covered by the DRP and welcomed by BSA. Now, you claim they are athiests, but only you. Hmmmm, you wouldn't be lying. misleading or slandering just to try to prove something now would you? Cause if you have to lie to prove it...then you only prove yourself as untrustworthy and a fool. Again, I respect your right to be athiest, but that does not mean I will respect your want to twist things, make things up or mislead others under false pretenses. You used that in your attempted arguement about DRP, not I, any other BSA member or BSA itself. You claimed it, so don't try to say I am dancing.

The only thing pointless is your arguement on tis post! Everybody who has answered LIBob - and coincidentaly happen to be active scouters or parents of active scouts or religious - have stated that Taoists are welcome and have taken the time to explain that to LIBob with open welcoming arms. Then you step in. The athiest ( which I respect, mine you) - the only person who is saying that Toaists ( as well as others) are not welcome. Do you not see how asinine that is? The outsider ( for lack of better wording) is explaining BSA policy and qouting a non BSA source, then arguing against active members of BSA and saying that the officail BSA source is wrong. I don't know wether to laugh or just feel sorry for you on that arguement. You might as well say: " I am not in scouting, am not an active member, and I do not like scouting, but I know better than all the scouts who are into scouting and active members of BSA! Why not say ( as a source) : "I had a friend who's dad knew somebody who lived beside a guy who was a cubscout back in 1960."

Also Merlyn, It was pointewd out by you: Really? Where did you read that? I would bet big bucks it was NOT in any BSA publication. How about the DRP, quoted earlier? The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God." How about the ENTIRE DPR which includes: No MATTER WHAT THE RELIGIOUS FAITH OF THE MEMBERS MAY BE , this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely NONSECTARIAN in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the HOME and the ORGANAZATION or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Yeah, I capped for emphasis ..which busts a hole in your "attempted" manipulation of the DRP into being a statement of " Doesn't appear to allow multiple gods, and the BSA sure doesn't clarify things." It is ytour opinion....no doubt about that, but it ain't fact or DRP!

Merlyn.... Seriously? Are you blindly grabbing now? Maybe on summer vacation?Even YOU can do better than to quote somebody who is asking about something they heard from a non BSA "somewhere" source , and try to pass it off as if BSA said or claimed that person's question as policy.

LIBob, I think you answered your own question as to why there isn't an award for Taoism: Taoism is a single line of thought or an agreed upon line of thinking any more than Christianity is. Sure , many Christians, but then you break them down to diffent sects or denominations. The difference being they do have names such as Methodist, Catholic, Baptist,etc. From what I read about Taoists, they are all Taoists , but under many different beliefs that are not similar in nature. Additionally, you also said "The "church" to which my friends belong, recognizes that there are so few Taoists in America ....." So how many are scouts or have been scouts? Not placing blame or burden on the Taoists, but fror the sake of arguement, if no Taoist ever joined BSA before...that can explain why there is no religious award for them. Know what I mean?

Well, I understand not having the money. When money is tight, it doesn't matter how cheap - cheap is! If I can't spend $10.00 then I can't buy a $2.00 flashlight, a $12.00 sleeping bag or anything else. But I do know that I could save up SOME money if I knew I had enough of a heads up to do it with. Nope, you don't need sleeping bags or pads, but if yourthat tight, you probably don't have the blankets that you'd be willing to chance ruining by laying them on the ground. Never lived in a city myself, but I can imagine taxi fare or bus fare adding up and depleteling your cash if you need a ride to the closest camping area. But having said that..I'd sleep under a cheap blue poly tarp if that's what it took. The tarp might not survive two trips, but I'd enjoy the two trips that killed the tarp.

Doesn't sound much different than any unit that has members made up of LDS, Catholic, Baptist, Pres, AME, Anglican, Protestsnt..etc.. groups. That's the reason that most scout reverances are so generic and "middle of the road" . You don't want to push one over another or alienate one religion in support of anothr. And by mentioning LDS, I'm talking about a kid or two who might not have a LDS church or unit close by, so they join the next best thing - yours! America might be (overall) a very religious nation, but we are also a nation that is divided into different sects or groups by individual religion too. No, we are not at war witheach other, but we don't exactly give any ground when it comes to religion either!

From my standpoint...there isn't a problem. Granted, I do not have a written copy of National's view on this particular subject, but I'm most don'teither. The thing is, BSA wants you to recognize some form of a higher power or god and at the very least something above yourself , which can be also called a deity. Deity: (from Wikipedia) A deity[ is a postulated preternatural or supernatural immortal being, who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, and respected by believers, often called in some religions as a god. I want to stress the part: " often called in SOME religions as a god." Not all religions, but some. Many of ours included. But who are we to difine what another religion considers a god? So, depending on which group or sect of taoism that this families follows, they may have either a barely there deity( god) or a high recogniton of a deity(s)/god(s: Tree Pure Ones Yu Huang Guan Shengdi Eight Immortals Yellow Emperor Xiwangmu Jade Emperor Chang'e etc.... Bhuddism, Hinduism, and a few other religions do not view a god as we do, but do recognize then in their own way. BSA allows / recognizes this and that meets the criteria. So, Taoists should be fine(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Basement, you are so right, and that statement is way bigger than the statement itself! Think about it this way: Suppose we were to turn into that fly on the wall...or I guess the fly on the tree in this arguement. Listening to the boys, how many things wopuld we hear them say, and completely agree on? For instance: How the view the importance of homework or good grades. Maybe about how much honest effort the put into something or even they way they will spend twice as much effort trying to make a chore easier than the effort required to just do it right. Know what I mean? Youth approach things differently than we do in both a logical way and in the way they work out the details. A teen just might argue all day long over a fine point without ever conceding that the bigger picture outweighs the fine point. Teens tend to be self absorbed and are more about the instant gratification that the long haul. Let me blunt: How many of you ever think to yourselves: "Oh man, In cannot wait until he grows up and enters the real world!" And that is my point! Teens think differently than us, act differently than us to particular situations. They process information differently and also live in a completely different state of mind than us. So when did teens startacting differently than when we were younger? THEY DIDN'T! We grew up. We became adults who lived on our own ad became responcible for ourselves. We started watching the news, we stated watchoing the government and making choices ( by voting) we started thinking of our retirement one day by either saving or investing in 401-K's. We looked at medical, dental and life insurance policies. We started thinking about how a HI-FI stereo with 36" speakers was not the best investment. We went from CD"s that go in stereos to CD's that are from the bank. We grew up. We started thinking differently and started acting differently. We started deciding what the younger guys ( who do not think like us) really wanted, when in fact, we decided what we "thought" they wanted. But since we do not think like them.....we missed the mark Now, I am not saying that every single one of us "lost it", or that none of us have a connection with kids anymore. I'm just saying, our perception is not the same perception as the youth of today. You want to test it? Follow the boys in your troop around for a month and start talking like them, play their games, dress like them, listen to their music and watch their shows. SCarey isn't it?

SSScout, I can totally respect your beliefs. Matter of fact, I like the fact you allow your son the option to earn his badges. From my standpoint and experience, childhood friends who were not alowed to shoot BB guns, ride dirt bikes, go carts or "banned" from any particular activity...would eventualy do it anyway behind their parents backs...except, they had no proper supervision. Not saying my son is an expert with a .22 by any means, but he does have experience with a .22 bolt and semi auto. He has shot a .410, and has a bb gun. The biggest thing is this: he has a reasonable expectation of what could or might happen. He is not a safety officer either, but has a basic knowledge of how dangerous a gun is. The point I meant by that is he is not fearless around gun - he knows they are dangerous. Anyways, like I said, from my experience, a child will do something one way or another if he sets his mind to it. I'd rather my son have at least some MB experince instead of none if a friend one day tempts him with a gun. At least at a BSA shooting range, it's in a controlled environment.

Any company in particular that you use/used? I just got a catalog from AC Supply.