Scoutfish

When I said religios. I was refering to some of the religions outside of Christianity that the follower do put a few tattoos on their body> Not a rock band reference or what is some sort of cool synbol in their society, but when some people of certain rel;igious beliefs have tattoos that are part of their beliefs Maybe Tibetian monks or those guys in the desert who are the secret protectors of the Holy Grail. Look at some African or Middle Eastern holymen or Shamans ( or whatever they may be called) Mayans and such. Tattoos and body piercings are not just accepted, but an eagerly expected indicator of the rite of passage into adulthood or marrage. I'm not just thinking continental US here. My point was that tattoos are not limited to or represent only prisons...although that has become it's own culture and most likely has a signifigant reference to stature in prisons. Prison tattoos are not an orgin, but the latest group that is using them.

I'd give credit to both religion and military service for the popularity of tattoos, but do not argue the fact that other venues also have a huge popularity in there use. I mean, although gangs no doubt have their use for guns, I do not credit gang warefare as the reason so many guns are in America. Perwonally, I have a split view on tattoos. I see people who are covered head to toe with them and i think that it is way too much and mostly tacky. But I also wouldn't dye my heair or wear a wig either (except for a skit or something similar) And even though I wouldn't ever get all the tribal tattoos I see so often or have a family portrait inked on my back.....I can stil appreciate the talent and the artwork behind it. But then I also see tattoos where somebody is using the tattoo as a personal memorial. Mine is celebrating my beating ( so far that is) cancer. Some are memorils to service in something life changing: Iraq, Viet Nam, WWII, 9-11, etc.... Of course, I know that those tattoos are more for the wearer than the public who see's them. So, I guess that even though I'd never get a bunch of tattoos in the style of so many I see, or for their reasons...I don't consider them trashy in themselves. Yeah, I'd consider a tattoo that promotes bigotry, racism, or prejudice as compltely moronic, and what gives tattoos a bad name. Also knowing it is forever should make some people think before gettin g their design inked in. Oh yeah, my barely shy of 11 year old son told me he wants a tattioo now. I told him he had to be 18 to get one. When he asked why, I said 18 was when you were legally an adult and that in theory mature enough to make a wise deciseon about something so permanant. He the tells me he wants a foot tattooed on his back. Yep! I tell him, that's why you have to be 18 to get one!

Well , none us will ever win any argument with an apponnent about opposing sides in person or political beliefs> That's a given, and I enjoy argueing myself. Sometimes It do see things ina different light, mostly I see people and gain respect for their passion of their belief even if we see it from opposite sides, and like you, I think it keeps us all a bit sharper.

Okay, my link isn't working right. You have to copy the whole thing and paste it to your search box> It's at the Scouter.com facebook page

THis may be the wrong thread/ forum for this, but seemed the best fit. If I ever wished that these threads would support pictures, it is now. So, Lets begin: Ever since I was 15 years old, I wanted a tattoo. Didn't know what or where, but knew I wanted one. But luckily for me, even back then, I realized that it was permanant and that I would wait until I found one that I wouldn't look back on when I was 80 years old and wonder why the hell I got it. So, sure, you couldn't legally get one until you were 18, but I was still aware of the permanancy of it. So all these years, I pushed it to the back of my mind until I found "the one". See, a few years ago, I was diagnosed with Melanoma. I was diagnose Stage III-B. It goes to III-C , III-D, then Stage IV. At stage IV, you pretty much get your affairs in order and make the most of it. A lymph node in my neck - that is supposed to be the size of a small baby garden pea, was swollen to the size of an extra large chicken egg. I had 19 lymph nodes, my SternoCleidoMastoid Muscle as well as a couple inches of my spinal accessory nerve removed. I can only raise my right arm level if I raise it sideways, and can only hold it straight up if I raise it frontward, I lost use of my trapezes muscle on that side due to the nerve removal. Even though I still write right handed, I am becoming left arm dominant as far as work goes. Mostly it means I cannot flap my arms and fly anymore. I was given a 3% to 5% survival rate, and although I am technically not out of the woods yet ( or ever will be) , after two surgeries, the Dr's cannot find any evidence to support that I ever had it to begin with. Test say I am clear. So, I drew up an idea for a tattoo a little over a year ago. My wife made it happen for me this Christmas: http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=338355406192749&set=o.172739770499&type=1&theater So, basically, this whole post is to ask: what tattoos do you have and why? WHat inspired you to get them, and do you reget getting it? Have you ever gotten "those" looks from parents in your unit? Me. I know I have one that I will never regret as it is a chapter of my life, my fight, and my overcoming obstacles. Oh yeah, I do realize the irony of permanantly having something put on your skin to celebrate not having something on your skin!

Beavah, My poiny was not about what you should or shouldn't think. You are free to think what you want> And I fully support that freedom. My point was that you will jump on and chastize somebody for what you ascertain to be rude behaivor. Then (usually) within 2 or 3 posts, you will yourself say hurtful, insulting comments to that person and use your own beliefs about whatever the subject is, to justify your insults - or claim ignorance of thos insults. Cae in point: Merlyn> Merlyn may say ( and I am totally making this example up to get a point across) : Beavah, there is no such thing as God, you are misleading yourself." Then you respond by saying : "Merlyn, I'd expect somebody of you poor mental stature and pkysical looks to not understand why a society that believes in sometrhing therefore proves it's existance through mass idealoogy and by communial acceptance>" The point is, whatever your comment was that you use to justify your belife...you throw out insults and personal attacks> I've never actuallt took you to task for your beliefs 0 which are mostly along the same lines as mine to a degree> But you remind me of an aunt and uncle who would throw out snide and rude remarks to anybody they were talking about and then try to justify it by hiding behind the bible> They would stir up trouble, throw out unfounded accusations and then say they were just trying to hgelp, that they loved us, that they were good Christians, blah blah blah Kinda like a bully who throws the first punch then hides behind his mom all the while saying the other person is trying to start something. DEfend your beliefs..I have no issue with that , nor do I think anybodty else does> But defend them with civility. I will say this for Merlyn, he states his beliefs just as everybody else does in thsi forum> he has that right> But I have not seen him use insults as an offense, only in defense. In that I mean he will not ingage in insults until somebody engages him first> And even though we have different belifes than each other, I somehow am able to see his side and argue with respect and without having to throw personal insults at him to somehow try to justify my beliefs. He

Well, I suppose not all the parents know all th rules...even though we tell them, hand out parent guideboks with them, and pretty much all the camping forms from us and council list the big ones (like drugsm alchohol, weapons..) BUt the thing is, people also forget or just don't think about it> Point in case, a family where the dad is used to having two beers with dinner every night. Two, not one, not three, but two. He;s Italian if that means anything. So what did I do when I sw3 him witrh his two beers - that he is acustomed to as part of his regular routine ( and nothing more)? I tell him the rules> Tell him he can't have it. Then we carry on. I do not toss him out, do not make a big stick or a big show> But next time, I will tell him he has been warned before and know the rules. Get rid of it or leave> Third time ...you will be asked to leave and there will not be a fourth timed. If somebody somehow sneaks it in and gets drunk, they will be driven home or have a cab called for them. And anybody can say:" It's nota big deal and nobody is in danger!" But we have had scouts get hurt > they get sick, the get hurt, they throw up and they have allergic reactions. The last thing we need is to have to babysit drunk mom or dad while also tending to a sick scout.

I'd say Bigfoot , the idea that Elvis is still alive, aliens in silver catsuits flying over the US and "new and Improved" are myths. I have no doubt about it at all. But there are tose who believe those things to be just as true as I thnk them to be myths. I do not feel disrespected because they view my opinions as myth. I do not feel disrespected (if) Merlyn views my religious views as myths. Truth of the matter is, to him, they are just as much myths as little green men in foil catsuits from sector 7-123a are to me. So...now what? Thing heris this Beavah...You seem to hold people as rude and arrogant and disrespectful if they do not agree with or bow down enthusiastically to your ideals or beliefs. Yet you show that same disdain and disregard for their beliefs and views with equal fevor. I am deeply secure in my religious beliefs, but I also recognive that I cannot physically give the slightest proof of my beliefs other than that others think the same way as I do, or that what I believe is backed up in a book full of "He said it so it must be true" writting. So, I give Merlyn equal status and respect to follow his own beliefs and to view my beliefs in the same way as I view his. If I declare him to be disrespectful because of his opinions of my views ( as far as a myth is concerned)....the catch 22 is that I also have to declare myself just as disrecpectful by having that opinuion of his.

" Scouting targets youth and not adults for benefits. But nevertheless the benefits for adults are real and extensive in my experience." ABSOLUTELY! It may not have been intended to benefit adults, and it may have been esigned for the youth, but it does benefit adults too. I can say scouting has made my life, my approach to youth, and my unerstanding of people alot better. You gotta remember that at one time, pharmacutical companies did alot of research and spent alot of time developing a drug to combat Angina( hardening of the Arteries - in case anybody didn't know). Turns out it also benefitted another area problem in men that it was not designed to , nor was it planned or even considered........ They call it Viagra!

I think one of the things that helps us is that the CC and myself ( CM) talk to each other about 4 times a week outside of any scout based meeting. We are friends. And almost every conversation ends up turing into a scout related conversation: "Hey Mark ( me) , Can you get me a price on a garage door?" In ten minutes, that coversation will be about some up coming scout or pack event , or about something to do with how we run things or what's ahppening in the district. I gues that means most of us are pretty well aware what we need to do and how by the time we have a meeting. The meeting just formalizes it.

Ours last from an hour to an hour and a half. If we would stop joking, yakking and stay on subject and just do the buisness end of it...mayb 30 to 45 minutes tops! I guess we are lucky in that we all get along and are on pretty much the ame page - or at least similar enough that we might make teeny tiny concessions and not argue major differences of opinions!

OH CRAP! My son learned the alphabet and how to read and write ar school. If he ends up writting a 300 page manifesto and reads books on how to build a bomb....should I blame the public schools, the board of education and anybody who blatantly and carelessly exposes my son to letters, numbers and such?

"Wearin' cut-off jeans and a tank top to a church wedding is probably a deliberate statement of disrespect. " You'd be surprised how many actually have no clue either way> "What's wrong with what UI am wearing, dude?" But then again, they also wear flip flops to weddings and those holey jeans have worn off from dragging on the ground and have permanant dirt stains. Myself, I take my hat off while eating, but I do not expect others do do it just because I do. And to be honest, I'm not even sure why I do. Honestly, I really don't wear hats that much. I think when I do, I take them off while eating because I do sweat alot on my head. I keep a high and tight crew cut even in January because of this. NOw, The way I always understood it was like this: While at attention at a flag, while in chuirch, or other somber occasions, you took your hat off unless it was part of a uniform. Scout hat stays on, police or fire hat (not helmet) stays on. John Deere cap comes off. But, making a point of telling a stranger to take a hat off seems to be a bigger act of rudeness that just letting be. I witnessed a man tell another older man to Take "His damned disrespecting hat off". during The National Anthem at the ball game our pack went to for a summer fun dayy. Turns out the guy who was wearing the had had some serious damage on top of his head. Could have been a war wound, cancer, sun damage, liver spots or who knows what. The man who made the comment ended up looking like a real ass.

What was it that Jeff Foxworthy said about "child safe" furniture? "WE didn't have child safe furniture when I was growing up. My dad let us pull the tv off the tv stand and would say: ' Bet he won't do that again!'" Okay, not an exact quote, but you get the point. Unless a scout is in sever jepordy of ruining without repair, his chance or earning Eagle rank..then let them make the mistake. Honestly, in my lifetime, and in my experience with cub scouts, at work, and all my years as a firefighter / EMS - sometimes the best way to learn something - and learn it good - ios to make mistakes. Short of physical harm, let them make a mistake in planning. Next time, they will not just have somebody saying to do it differently, but will have 1st hand past experience to draw from.

"Wasn't referrin' to the name, Scoutfish. Was referrin' to the practice, the belief structure, da epistemology." Nah, I wasn't refering to the name either, but just saying that - science by any other name is still science. Maybe it wasn't called science til later on, but the process was the same. When I was little, a garbage truck came by my parents house and the garbagemen would take our garbage away to the dump. Now days, a waster removal truck comes by may house, and sanitation removal technitions will take my domestic refuse, andf tote it to a waste disposal facility. New name, newer terms that sound nice and fancy...but still thye same process no matter which one you call it.

"Science is a form of natural philosophy that grew up out of Western culture. Just because it is currently practiced all over the world doesn't mean it isn't western. " Yeah, but that's like saying the name " car " grew up out of the American horseless carrage, but since we call them cars...all cars all over the world are actually American. Science is just a newer term for the word natural philosopher. But the principals and methoods are still the same. We could also say that all math is American thanks to Texas Instruments simply because they made complex calculations and difficult math easier to solve and more accessable to the average person by way of their calculators. Science was there, it was just called something different. The Chinese invented the decimal system back in the good old days of BC.

You have to realize too, that to some extent, hunting is a action that puts more responcibility on ones self too. Used to be a time - way, way back - that the only meat you had was either raised on your farm, or you hunted it. If you didn't make an effort and do the work, you didn't eat it. THere was no convienence of going to a grocery store. Funny how most of us grown adults lament about the good old days when people took more responcibility for themselves and their families, yet we also advocate having other people do our work for us - ie; buy groceries and food from tehe local grocery store instead of growing or raising it ourselves. Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think it would be plausable to expect everybody to have a farm in their back yard in today's modern society...but somewhere, our arguement about going back to the old days and all the values that came with it would very much include more hunting and less relying on others for our food. My grandfather would consider buying fish and ham, eggs and chicken the ultimate act of being full of yourself and a waste of money. He'd think you were just showing off because you bought you ham and eggs and fish instead of working for your own. In his mind, it would be just like bragging about how many maids and servants you had. Myself....I don't hunt, but I do fish. I fish with a rod and reel, I set nets, I shrimp, I use crab pots. And I enjoy it because it's not my full time job abd I do not have to have that gear to survive. But I also do not catch fish and just throw them back after they die. Every fish I catch either gets eaten by me, a family member or people in my community. I give fish to elderly people who physically cannot catch their own, or who cannot afford to pay $12.00 a pound for fish or shrimp at a fish house. Plus I give them seafood caught that day, not last week . A bunch of guys at my company hunt deer and turkey. They quite frequently bring deer jerky in for others and they give to the local community also. One of my workers alwys gives half of what he kils to a local family who are down on their luck. So, you may consider that a agressive act, but it ends up with a family having a meal they wouldn't of had otherwise.

"But, there is really no point in pointing this out to some, as you will continue to argue that you are right, and everyone else is wrong if they disagree. " Sounds like every different religion and every different denomination to me. Sounds like every religious person I know also. And I would include myself too. Mater of fact, sounds like the definition of faith to me. I believe in God myself. Not a god, but God. But come on, That's sentance descibes you just as well. Merlyn could say the EXACT same thing about you when he talks about your belief and faith.

" I was just using Linzey's work to show that my way of thinking was legitimate and well thought out " No more well thought out or legitimate than any other person's arguement that defends their own opinion, right? Here's what I know from personal observation over the years. No, I haven't been taking notes, but just from experience s and knowledge gained over the years from many friends who hunt, and also trhose who fish ( as I do). There are a few hunters who thrill over seeing a wounded deer limp and fall to the grond. There are some who could care less how much pain they have caused. There are a few who will shoot a deer/fox/trurkey/ bear/ elk/ ewtc... just to get a head monted on their wall at home and not use a single piece of meat for themselves or to even donate to those who could use it. But they are the very, very small minority of the hunters I know. On the other hand, muders, drive by shootings, gang killings and beatings, murder and rape are up. Every day I either read or hear on the radio or evening news that somebody has been killed in my state due to a robbery, gang related, marritial issues ( affairs? ) or even the absolute stupidest stuff like somebody being "Dissed over my score on the vieo game" and having to shoot anotrher person to get their respect back. MOst ( but not all) are city folks. Straight up urban dwelling , city folks who are no more hunters than I am the Russian Premier. Go into the most gang infested and hi crime areas of america and conduct a poll to see how many are hunters or who hunt animals. Go to our prisons and see how many convicted murderes were hunters. No group is 100% perfect, but I suspect that a vegetarian who has "proof" of the connectuion between hunting and animal abuse is only pushing his own agenda with only "facts" that support his opinion, and none that are even remotely contrary. Of course, I guess I am also biased since I am the son of a 22 year military dad who was also an MP . Most non violent and confrontation avoiding guy I ever knew. Yeah, opinion and nothing more.

I'll say this: I hunt with a fishing pole. not a gun. Never been much into hunting myself, although I do love me some deer jerky! But, even the non hunter I am, I do know most of the areas the local hunters hunt on. Private owned property that they had express permission to hunt on. Point being, If I take my cub scouts hiking in those areas, and one gets shot...youi should blame me first and foremost. Why? Because it would mean I was in a place I did not have permission to be in and/ or thatr I didn't bother to talk to anybody about going to that particular place as I surely would have been advised that people were hunting there. Wether you like hunting or not, there is responcibility on our part too. We can't just say that we are scouts abnd just go hikiung anywhere anytime we want. WE do have the responcibility to check and see whats's going on wether an area is closed to hunting, pollution, land conservation project, or just off limits due to the rare and endangered Eastern Scarlett Skeeterhawk. Sure, the hunters have the same responcibility too.

Ooooops! Musta missed a < I > somewhere!

"One of the athiest displays is 4 pictures which asks the viewer what myths they see while pointing out that 37 million Americans know a myth when they see it - one of those pictures is Santa, one appears to be a depiction of Poseidon, one is a depiction of Jesus and one is a picture that appears to be a depiction of Satan. I don't see how this mocks anyones religion since it is letting the viewer make their own decisions - it suggests that Jesus is a myth but doesn't try to hit you over the head with it. " Hopefully by now, it has been made clear that I am not an athiest. I am a man who believes in God. But I am also a man who believes in fairness and equal treatment to all before personal or religious beliefs. Looking at the above qoute from Packsaddle, I honestly do not see any difference between the above statement any any statement alluding to CHristmas that is publicly displayed in any parade or or in a public forum or govt public forum> Scene of a nativity does indeed promote a groups personal beliefs and ideals. Showing angels and the cross also promote a specific set of beliefs and ideals. I mean, nobody ever confused a nativity scene with Holiday Inn Express did they? You don't see a cross and think that the state chapter of math lovers has left a plus sign on the lawn do you? Thing is, atiests have just as much right to promote their own beliefs as we do. They are citizens, they pay taxes, they are covered and protected just as much as we are by the Constitution as we are. THeir beliefs( in a very short nutshell) are that God and the devil, etc...are myths. Why is that any different than me wanting to put a "John 3:16" sign up in the local park? It is a statement of personal belief . Nothing more, nothing less. Since it really boils down to "We don't want anybody elses beliefs to be posted lest we cry of being offended!" , the town really ought to just disallow any display at all. And for the record, I personally hate when people call Christmas trees "Holidy trees" ! What Holiday? Why Christmas! July 4th isn't "Summer vacation Day". The holiday is a specific holiday. Either you are on board with it or not. Be anti Christmas or celebrate Christmas, but drop the holiday tree! If you don't believe in Christmas trees, then don't have a decorated tree during Christmas. I am not Jewish, but I do not have a "Christmas Candelabra" either! It's like people are trying to use a holiday loophole to get around what it really is! Anyways, my point is this: The only reason Christians should complain about poersecution at that park is if ALL OTHER BELIEFS EXCEPT Christianity are allowed. Having to share space is not injustice.

"Yah, I think most hunters are pretty responsible folks." And I agree with you. but it's the "non most" who are the problem! Last year, at one of our council campouts, we were told to be extra careful as the weekend of camping was also the first weekend of hunting for .....something. Could have been turkeys, deer, bear, or wild dragonfly for all I know. DD said that if we saw any hunters,call him or the ranger immediately due to past issues with the hunters. The past issue? The hunters decided they were gonna hunt on the council property and that the had the unalienable and God given right to do so since their prey ran onto camp property while they were pursuing it. Got ugly enough that the law was called and threats were made and somebody arrested. And that is the problem in our area: The "non most" hunters feel that they have the right to hunt wherever the hell they want. They will tear down fences, tear up land, trash posted signs, and will even try to intimidate landowners. Of course, the majority of hunters are in fact responcible people who are the leaders of local land stewardship, conservation efforts, restoratin efforts and most of them support higher hunting fees " IF " it is actually used for wildlife managment, enforcement and education & training classes.

Having had time toi think about this post since my first comment(s)..I kinda sort have an inkling of a thought about something: I'm kinda thinking ( to an extent) that Perry isn't so much making a statement about religion in schools , so much as making a statement about his own stupidity or inability to understand. Likewise, if the parents of the chilodren who are the subject of this thread do not take time to find out for themselves wether Perry is right or not....well. then I fault them too to some extent. And by that, I mean that citizens do have a responcibility to make sure what they hear is legit and not misunderstod wether on the part of the citizen or govt representative. For example - thought not the same kind of issue - our pack has a Christmas party at one of our local elementry schools each year. Well, this past year, the county started charging groups for using school property. To be clear, I do think that is a fair idea. I have no issue with a school charging a fee for use of facilities. So anyways, we are planning and comfirming dates and times , etc, and we are told it will cost us $100.00 to use the cafeteria for 2 hours. Not even the whole cafeteria, just the dining facility as we are not using the kitchen. I had remembered the newspaper article announcing that the schools would start charging, but had remembered that youth groups and civic groups were exempt as long as they were not fundraising at the time of use. I just called the County school system a few minute before this post. Turns out that the person we talked to at the local school was wrong. Not maliciously wrong, but just misunderstood policy. Now, I feel as CM, that even though we were told something by a school representative, I was still my duty to check and confirm the validity of the subject matter. And it is going to save us $100.00 in the process too. In the past, I have heard police, fire, EMS, town maint staff, town clearks, librarians, store workers, etc...state what I knew to be incorrect facts and policies. I always made a point of checking to be sure the info I got was correct. On few occasions I would get the run around, but most of the time I could either confirm or dispell the info and would have an authoritve source to substantiate the info. In todays case, I have the name and contacty info of the county dept head who creates and oversees the community use policy.

Wait a minute beavah, I am going to have to argue with you on something..... You say "hick dialect". But what I am hearing is a northern - possibly Northeastern Maine Dialect. Or somebody who watched too much Justin Wilson growing up! "I gar-on-tee!".