Scoutfish

WEll, while I have never pushed for co-ed scouting, nor have I rallied against it.... I think it's pretty cool they are pulling it of without anybody looking at it in any other way than just a normal thing. And the girl ( based on the picture ) isn'y trying to "pinkify" her uniform. She's studying that map just as much as any scout in my pack would , if not more. I guess I could even go as far to say that - that pack isn't going to hurt how my p[ack runs or how effective it is in one way or another either so.......More power to pack 121. Looks like they are doing a pretty great job so far. Of course, you also have to take in reporter knowledge and accuracy too: "Pack 121 might be unusual in Columbia from a demographic standpoint, but it functions no differently than any other troop." AWESOME! This pack is definantly ahead of the times! Not only are they co-ed, but have PL's, SPL's, and such too?

That's the kicker isn't it? There's no way to know who will do this if they haven't already been caught. No doubt the guy has felt this way a while, but this may be the first time he acted on it, so there wouldn't be any previous incidents or records to check. But now, look at what our organazation is: A youth focused group that needs leaders who use money to work with kids . Scouting is a prime target for child predators, imbezellers, and power hungry " do it my way" leaders. Motor heads hang out at car shows and race tracks. Muscle heads hang out at the gym or beach. Tech geeks hang out at the computer store or internet cafe. Metal heads are at the local guitar store or somebody's garage. So, where do the child predators want to hang out? Lots of choices I am sure, but BSA is among them.

"jumping the shark" is a way to say....your time is up or your carrer is about over. It's the point it's all going down hill. You ever see thnat show Happy Days ? Fonzi ( Henry whatshisname) Jumped over a shark while waterskiing. This was about the time the show was starting to drop pretty badly in the ratings.

Well, it depends on the sponsors BP is out because they do not promote LNT which is a big part of scouting. Bud Light is out because the scouts are under the age of 21. But I do se a scout accepting his first place trophy with this speach: " WEll, I'd like to thank the crew of the MINWAX # 28 Scoutertown 400 Pine Wood Derby racecar for their efforts. Our LOWES HOME IMPROVEMENT Top Choice Lumber Pine wood car ran pretty well on the DUPONT plastic wheels and the Pittburgh Steel nails. Of course, if it wasn't for the Tube-O-lube graphite on the wheels, we would have ruined the TESTOR'S paint job. Can't forget to thank our BSA council scout shop for setting me up with our Tiger Cub racing supplies. Right now, I am gonna go over to the MityLyte snack food table and have a handfull of OREO cookies and some MAOLA milk. "(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

I got it, and I thought it was funny! I have made references to my son that got me that same unblinking stare: " Jumping the shark " " Here's a quarter - call somebody that cares " " Where's the beef" ( at dinner during resident camp)

I don't see a problem with it. The buisness donated for whatever reason. You can put a sticker or lettering on the side of the track to let everybody plus future parents and scouts know. Where I'd draw the line is if they wanted to buy sponsor rights to future PWD's where they expect you to have a NASCAR style name change: " Feb 11th - Pack 123 is having their annual First Bank of Anywhere 500 Pinewood Derby Race That would be a big no. But putting their name on the side of the track as a donor is no different than a troop having their name on an adopt a hiway sign or stenciled on the back of a bench they built and installed at alocal community park for a service project.

I was going to say: "Hell yeah! You bet I am tougher than a boyscout!" Because I see how thee scouts can barely survive a few days of camping without tv, video games, and texting. But then I also know they can go two weeks straight with taking a shower or even changing their underwear if you were to allow that, sooooooooooooo............................... I have to admit - I am not that tough!

" Personally, I'm opposed to turning religious beliefs to mush in order to accomodate everyone." I don't see it turning religions into mush. But I do see it as us showing the scouts that their religious beliefs are second class/ second rate to our own beliefs. I see it like this: You all know the cub scout promise right? Hasn't been too long sinbce you recited it with your son? I ________ promise to do my best To do my duty to God and my country, To help other people, and To obey the Law of the Pack. So....each scout changes what is said by adding his own unique name to the promise. BUT...it doesn't change what he promises to do. So wether it be God, Buddha, Odin, Allah, Durga, or Zues.... ......the scout is still making a promise to be his best, to be a good citizen, respect others, etc...... So. What's the problem? When our cubs recite the cub scout promise, having 12 boys say their own names - of different varying length - the promiss doesn't get all messed up. It's still the promise and the intent to be noble that matters.

I'm somewhere in the middle. I see it like any kind of job or project budget: You figure all costs involved. Usually, you are figuring the cost of hiring people. Of course, in this case, you are not paying the volunteers to work. But providing food as a an incentive for the volunteers is a normal idea. Or, they leave and you lose at least an hour if not more dependinmg if they go home to eat, sit down at a restaur ant, just hit the closest drive through or bring their own lunch. Of course, if you make it a part of your budget, and list it as an expense and you go over all of this with the beneficiary, then it's covered. I would not endorse using the money on the wy home after work on the project is finished or just finished for the day , since you are going home and the worl session is over. But I wouild think it acceptable for paying for a simple lunch or a cooler full of bottled water or gatoraid. No steak dinners or anything fancy, pizza, hot dogs or a burger from Mickey D's would be okay.

I think your approach was dead on, but I too want to hear what the parents did. This is something I'd like to know too- for future reference in case it ever comes up.

Adding to what nldscout and Twocubdad said: You also have to look at it from another point of view also: Even if you had 5 years experience, they may be looking for somebody who is wanting to work with and look out for ALL the boys in the jambo troop...not fill the position with somebody who is going to shadow their own son around. NOw about Jim. Why are you pouting? I mean, not trying to insult you or put you down, but that's what it is.....pouting. Jim is not responcible for you being accepted or not accepted. Jim's position has no correlation to yours. Suppose you did get accepted and another parent from your troop didn't who also applied. Should they act toward you as you say you are going to act toward Jim? Do you normally withdraw from or have hostile feelings for people who have better luck than you? If you and a friend go somewhere and he wins a door prize and you don't...is the ride home also difficult? "I tried to stay out of talking about the jambo rejection as it seems to me he does not like me getting too involved in "his" scouting activities." Honestly here, Jim is in a difficult spot. Now he is in the position of not being able to talk about something he enjoys because you take it personally and hold hard feelings toward him. What else can he do? Either way, he loses: If he talks about the Jmabo, he gets the attitude from you. If he doesn't talk about it, he walks around on eggshells. Nopw, this of course, is my own opinion based on how I am reading your posts. I know that I might be totally wrong. I might be misreading or just not understanding what you are trying to convey. But.......in putting it all together, if years of experience weren't the biggest reason for them not choosing you, this would be a good reason for them to not choose you.

Tampa...That's nothing! Beavah has a porn connection with a car dealership!

Yeah, it totally sucks taht we have a a handfull of rules, but we did not make them for the sake of making them.. We made them speciffically due to issue coming up at PWD's. For instance: Wheels must be flat edged and original width. Why? Because we had some cars with rounded wheels, some were 1/8th inch thick, some were tapered wheels. Once cars pass inspection, only PWD crew officals can handle cars Why? Because scouts and parents try to add extra weights or lube to cars after weigh in and inspection. Because people have been " I was only looking at it" - when they "accidentally" dropped the competitions car or bent a wheel or pulled a weight off. Because overly enthusiastic scouts have dropped their cars while running to put it on the start ramp or have inadvertantly knocked other scouts cars to the floor where they get damaged. Thing is, if your car was running great during test runs and you really, really worked hard on it, will saying " Oh, better luck next time!" really make you feel better? Or would it be better to let us take your car and you watch your car race 4 or 5 times? 99% of our scouts do have a blast with the cars, and even more of that is directed at design than racing, but it's the 1% who can ruin a race for an entire den because of shady practices. Our rules are not for control, but for fairness.

Did you say Beavah got some Martha Stewart porn from the GM dealership in Irving?

One cool trend I am noticing with our pack is that the boys are more interested in the different designs than they are about winning.Most would rather have a cool car than worry about winning. Yeah, they still like winning, but real status is acheived by "car coolness".

Tell you a true and amazing story. A few years ago, we had a Tiger Cub make his own car. His mom was single. I don't know if it was divorce, death, out of wedlock, deadbeat, etc... He just didn't have a dad. So the mom and the boy take turns with a coping saw because they didn't want to use the scroll saw we had at our PWD workshop. The boy put the wheels on the nails, slid the nails into the wood and took the car home. Come the day of the PWD, he presents his car for inspection: It has been colored with magic marker. Lot of magic marker. Thius car looked fuzzy because of the amount of magic marker he used on thsi car. Must have gained at least 2 ounces just from te ink. Every nail was inserted to a different depth, no glue on the nails, no graphite on the axels. No weights added either. They just took it home as it was at the workshop and colored it. So we gave alot of suggestions to help him out. Had DL push his axels in evenly and at a good spacing. Gave the boy a tube of graphite and told him to lune the axels. We told him to tape a few quarters to the car too. So it passes inspection at a hair under 4 ounces. We felt bad too , knowing how bad this car was going to run. This Tiger scout and his mom were very appreciative of our help and efforts. They appreciated it so much, that when the scout recieved his 1st place trophy for his rank, he thanked us repeatedly! If I was a betting man, I would have lost money that day!

" Has our conduct in accord with the charter been sufficiently exemplary to justify the people of the United States giving us a protected monopoly, so that no other citizens or groups of citizens are permitted to offer Scouting programs? " I say no. I don't care if BSA was doing the best job possible in such a way that the next youth group over couldn't do half as good...other people should be able to do it too. The end user( us) will determine who is on top. Sure, I can see having a trademark and rights o the specific name, logo, etc.... But if you wanted to go out and start a group called "American Scout Boys" or "Wolf scouts" or Aroow Indian Scouts"..I do not thnk anybody should take you to task and take you to court because it is "simmilar" to BSA. If BSA is doing that great a job, they shouldn't need a Congressional Charter. I ean, having a Congressional Charter doesn't mean squat if your program is so bad that it folds from no participation, so the quality of your program matters, not the charter. I forget that Latin saying , but it basically says that it's a free market and that the qulaity of your buisnes or product will determin your success. People speak with their feet. They stay or they walk. Having a monopoly doesn't ensure success, it only ensures no competition!

Good luck with that. We have boys in our pack who are very talented. You could give them a raw egg, a handfull of sawdust, a pocketknife and chunk of plastic and they could make a PWD car that looks like it was a laser engineered car straight from NASA. On the other hand, we have dad's who could buy a PWD that was already cut out, clear coated, assembled and weighted and only needed paint, and it would come to the Pine wood Derby looking like a three-wheeled dog's chew toy. I always make sure my son does at least 50% of all work. He usually does more in most things anyways, but 50% is the minimum bar. So I am pretty good with wood and building things as is he. Not all other people have that ability or talent. So the question is, If the car looks great: Did a talent scout do most of the work as compared to a parent doing most of the work? If the car loks bad: Did the scout do most of the work, or was it a parent without the talent, or proper tools or creativity? One thing we did do ourselves is allow the dads to have a Dad's race after the PWD is over. They collect money and the winner gets half the pot. They then donate the other half to the pack , the school, a local chaity or whatever they choose. But we make it clear, that is something they are doing. It's NOT a pack function. But the point is, the over competative dad's end up letting Jr pretty much do whatever and however he wants to build his own car because over competative dad is busy spending 30 hours a week designing, testing and tuning his own car.

I don't think there will be a one size fits all, definant answer to your question. Personally, I say a private page is just that - private. But, there comes a responsibility with that privacy. You don't mix things together. You keep them seperate! If my son has a facebook page one day, and he has a video of some rapper or comedian using a few choice words...that is his own buisness. Not saying I would encourage it, but it is what it is. But I would not expect him to friend his COR, SM, the DE, the SE, and the distict or council's facebook profile on that page either. He can have two seperate pages and two seperate profiles. KNow what I mean? Your page is only private to the people you do not let in. But I do see BSA's side to it also. My son might think it was funny to make a video and act all "gansta" and use profane lyrics, but if he's wearing his scout uniform, or if his whole troop or patrol are in the video too - even if it is on his own page - I can see where BSA might say : "HEY! You are representing us in a bad way that does not work in agreement with our beliefs, views and policies!" But if he posts a video of himself singing a song that he likes, and that song is a bit questionable, but it's on his own page that has no connection to his unit, district, or counsel - not even by mutual friendships...then BSA needs to keep their own nose out. Let me put it another way. I am a CubMaster for a pack, I am the cub scout camp promotor for my district, I am a MB counselor for our district and I often work with our sister troop. But I am also a male. I am also married. I do normal married person things. My wife and myself have marital relations. That's how e ended up with a son . Sometimes we are creative and spice things up. Both are normal sides of me, but I keep them seperate. I would not put pictures of my wife in her latex catsuit ( it was a halloween costume, by the way) on the same facebook page I am friends with pack members, troop members or any of the youth I work with. I would not have pictures of me getting drunk with friends, or anything extreme or risque' And to be clear, I do not have any youth from any BSA association as my friends on any online page or site. I do administer our pack facebook page as well as our pack website, but during that time, I am a CM and nothing else. Seperate pages, different usernames, passwords, profile pics, etc... I am sure many of you enjoy a beer or two or twelve at times. Maybe a mixed drink or vodka on the rocks. Nothing wrong with that at all. But you wouldn't drink that drink at a unit meeting, at church or at work. That's how I see website privacy. Keep it private by keeping it private. Don't post pics or videos of you doing dumb stuff in your uniform, keep intimate details intimate and away from pack stuff.

I think computers as well as all modern equipment helps us in uncountable ways to gain access to whatever we want, wether it be easier and quicker access top all things scouting. For example, I can look up the next camping event offered by council or district and sign up, register and pay in less that 2 minutes instead of driving 30 miles to the council shop or waiting a week for mail. My point about not using anything more modern than 1916 was in reference to those who think anything BSA came up with after 1916 should be ignored. If yah gonna do it, do it all the way!

It would seem trhat scoutcraft is actually redundant. Wouldn't scoutcraft just simply be whatever was being taught to scouts at scout meetings and activities? But then, don't stop there. If one truely feels that everything should go back to the way it was in 1916, should that person not turn off the computer, ipad, any electric devices ( including printers, copiers, faxes, etc...and break out the old scout manuals andx pen and paper for everything. No more using cell phone to call anybody for anything scout related, no more posting advancement to scoutnet. Goota get the ole pen and paper out and hand write anything and everything that needs to be kept track of and recorded. Toss out the camp stoves, camp chairs, grill lighters, mosquito spray, Gator-Aid, bottled water and coolers.No trail mix bars, no trail mix, no poptarts etc... Oh, no more posting on scouter.com about how things were better back in 1916 either! And I think you have a great point about: "The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916." What were the kindred values back then? Wasn't segregation considere a good thing? Weeren't women still treated as inferior and should be kept barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen? If a child was born with any slightly percieved condition - you sent them to an instituition to live ( if you could afford it)? Speaking of dumb laws: North Carolina: No costume meetings Utah: No hunting whales Kennesaw, Georgia: You must own a gun Tennessee: Atheists and preachers may not serve in public office. Seaside, Florida: Every house must have a white picket fence and two-story porch. New Orleans: No cursing the fireman while hes working Washington: Report your crimes ahead of time.

We do things slightly different at our leader/ committee meetings. We all work together when we plan and vote. All committee and all leaders get a vote. Since we all have time and energy vested in the pack, we let everybody vote. Of course, before we vote, somebody has to bring stuff up...we talk about it, everybody tosses out their ideas, and then we discuss more, then settle it with a vote. This woman is B&G chair. Does a grea job right up til food selection. Same thing with camping and other events. She helps aout alot. But as soon as we start talking about an event, she starts on pigs, boston Buts. etc... So it's not that we have to over ride her, but more like : "Really? You still bring that up?" Kinda like the one former leader who wanted to have pack provided ( and pack paid for) canoes on the lake every time we planned a pack campout. Okay, that one goes against G2SS, but the similarity was the member bring it up every time just like it was the first time and we never discussed it before. It's not so much a leadership or committe problem, just a big PITA!

nah, we don't feed them pop tarts. They brought that themselves. We give them what you'd expect a kid that age to eat for the duration of a one day campout. Sausage and pancakes for breakfast. Hot dogs and chips for lunch. The past campout, we cooked chicken nugets and mac and chese for supper. Not a single scout turned their nose at the food choices. They all ate, and were happy. Now, you have to realize, we do not feed these boys for 3 meals a day, 7 days a week. We are talking about a weekend event where they fend for themselves on Friday nights ( parent menues usually consist of Micky D's or similar), we cook 3 meals Saturday, and Sunday, we cook sausage again, and have warmed up danishes and juice. One weekend, 4 meals. Thing is, the scouts have spoken. I'm not the only person who is tired of tossing out a bunch of barbeque hog, boston Butts and chicken quarters because the CUB scouts do not eat it. And to clarify, it's not the parents who ask for these meals. Just this one lady. And to further clarify, she is not cooking, she just plans. She plans for these meals expecting others to prepare, cook, and clean up. So, it's a weekend campout. What time do you start cooking a 200 pound pig? I'll give you a hint: You do not start at 11 am. Think more like 5:30 to 6:00 am How many adults does it take? Well, it can be done with only one, except when it's time to flip the hog and chop it and mix the sauce in, ect... Boston Butts? We did it 3 years ago. It took 16 Boston Butts when you accounted for the size versus the number of servings it would take to feeed those in attendance. But then, those numbers were off because out of 70 or so scouts, only 3 or 4 actually ate any. Scouts do not want what you and I know to be pretty great food. They want burgers and hot dogs and junk like that. If they had their way, we'd have only soda to drink and a cse of ice cream too. And remember, thee are not Boy Scouts, these are cub scouts. First and second graders...third graders and 4th graders. The 5th grade boys will eat pretty much anything, but you cannot plan a menu for 80 boys based on the likes of 10. Again, this isn't 24/7/365...this is 4 meals out of 9 during a weekend and also when we do B&G and sometimes crossovers. If mom and da want to educate their palate's let them. But since camp food costs us money, it ain't time to experiment.

Eagledad, No, I think adults in troops should cook their own meals seperate from the patrols who cook theirs. But if the scouts invite the adults to dine with them, then it reverses to the adults accepting what the scouts cook . If the adult does not wish to eat what the scouts cook, then the adult goes back to cooking his own food. But we are not talking about a troop, we are talking about a pack where scouts do minor cooking with an abundance of supervision. The problem isn;t a real problem so far, more like an annoyance since it's the same thing over and over again and again. But outside food selection, she's an awesome asset to the pack. (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Here's the deal: I do not have a problem with the kind of food she wants to cook. I very much enjoy that kind of food: Boston Butts, Whole pig , chicken leg quarters with boiled green beans and potatoes with yeast rolls and salad. But when we camping, most everybody expects "camp food". You know...hot dogs, cheeseburgers, stuff like that. Me? I'll eat any of it. But trime and time again, most of our scouts will not eat the food. Ever notice what they serve in school cafeterias? Not a whole hog or boston butts, baked /grilled chicken quarters! They serve what the kids will eat. And the cost is way down. Now, this mom doesn't just decide th menu for events. The committee does. We all get together and make suggestions as to what we think will go over well with the scouts while still being healthy and cheaper too. Every time we have served the hog, butts or chicken, we have lots of waste and kids who end up eating pop tarts or gummy bears or whatever snack junk they brought along. Sure, the adults enjoy the food( including me) but the whole reason we are eating is because we are holding an event that was designed for and all about the youth. My only issue with this mom - since she does not have free run - is that it's always the same menu ideas over and over and over. And she's been here long enough to know that most scouts do not want that. It's pretty much like she just ignores the scouts tastes over her own. Now, if we were hosting an all day adult leader training session that included the meal..I'd bend over and give her the golden apron to the kitchen. But i's a scout thing we are doing here. And she usually doesn't plan on doing the cooking...she just plans on doing the planning.