Scoutfish

Well, I guess you can see the problem with too hypothetical of a question. While others assume its a vendetta, I actually based it onw hat you said - which was having proof that the leaders violated YPT. But that's also a problem. Sinvce it was hypothetical, I pretty much use the parts and piece of the problem that my mind creates or makes up, which may not be anything like what your mind made up, nor anything like the other posters' minds made up. And sometimes, the very tiniest detail of what really happens can determine wether something is a blatant violation, or well withing guidlines.

What is a real shame is trhis: All the varying religions see themselves as shining example of high moral and social standards. Every one of them thinks they set the bar in compassion, caring and love. Each one thinks they sre supoerior in doing the rigfht thing....as long as you do it their way. Its a shame the government has to make them play nioe and behave around each other. I myself, I am very spiritual and I do believe in God. I have a very strong faith and it is above having to validate it to other people or just ify it to them. But make no mistake: religions - which may have started our great - have succumbed to man. Man had twisted, warped and modified religion to suit his needs. Religions are over run with politics, corruption, and people picking and choosing their interpretations to suit only their own needs and ignoring others. I am spiritual and have very deep rooted faith in God. But I do not prescribe to any one religion.

"Most religious people rank their allegiances in the order of God, Family, and Country. I can say the same as well. But I do not insist on demanding that everybody submit to my version of what I think God wants , and using government money to do it. Freedom of religion means just that/ FReedom on the part of the citizens. It does not nore has it ever ment that religion is free to act like it's own government. The government is here to make sure all citizens have equal rigts. No, it sure ain't perfect, and government ( which is only as good as those elected to be in it) sure can screw things up in a very efficient manner. But the job of the goverment is to make sure that groups like Westboro do not set policy, or that the Southern Baptist Convention does not have US laws that regulate all US citizens. Blue laws are a great example: Why should all people have to do without based on some people's religious choices? If you own the store and what to close on Sunday..that's awesome and a right I fully support. But to say that I HAVE to because of some peole religious beliefs is completely agaist what the founding father envisioned. They personally experienced what it was like to have all people subject to the rule of others beliefs. The US goverment is simply saying that you can believe what ever you want, whorship whoever you want, and (mostly) however you want - but you cannot cause others to be constrained to of live under those beliefs. And looking at immigration and how cultures change, ebb and flow, the thing all people better watch for is this: One day, Christianity just might not be the majority religion in the US. So whenever that other religion ( whatever it may be) is the guiding force of our Nations majority - you had better pray that they do not start enacting federal laws that are based on their religious beliefs. Christmas may not be considered a valid reason to take a day off from work, or maybe they enact birthing laws like Asia - mandatory abortions due to only two children per household. And the thing is, if we start going about to get the laws to be based on our religions, it's only time before we become another facist state. People getting persecuted for being the "wrong" religion. And do not forget, it wasn't that long ago that people were persecuted against based on sex, race or beliefs...and it was legal and backed up by the bible too.

I was told that either 10 dimes or 10 pennies equals one ounce of weight. But we found out that older pennies and dimes do not weigh exactly the same as newer ones...and that depending on how much wear and tear the coin had - bent egdes, nicks, wearing thin on one side - gave us a variety of different weights. The only place we have a real problem is when people try to sneak by the decimal point. Know what I mean? Our scale has number past the decimal point. Some of the dads will buy scales that read 3 or 4 places past the decimal point. So they think if thie car weighs 5.006 or 5.0019 on their scale, it will show up as 5.00 on ours. Of course, it doesn't work that weigh! The scales will automaatically read up and round up to the next digit. If your car weighs in at 5.009 on your scale...it will read 5.1 on ours. They complain that our scale is off, but I explain that even 5.0000000001 is still .0000000001 too heavy

It does sound similar to heaven. It's not a cghurch song or hymn I checked to see if it was Patsy Cline, Betty Carter, Ella Fitzgerald, and even Loretta Lynn. Nope. TRut is, I just don't know a bunch of women singers from those years. Guessing it's from between the 30's to possibly the mid 60's....but I am just guessing

This is in no way scouting connected , nor is it about I or P...I just didn't know which forum to post in... Just got back from a 4 hour away hospital. My mother in law passed away after 4 hours of being disconnected from life supporet after spending 8 days in a critical intensive care unit. It was for the best and we have no quals about the right decision even though it was a tough and emotional decision. Okay, anyways, she used to sing part of a song, but not alot. Just kept repeating part of the verse which is as follows: "Seven( kinda drawn out) ...the time to pardon is seven ( seven drawn out)" That was pretty much the only part she sang. This was an old school song from around the time James Stewart and that bunch were still reeling out hit movies. THis was a slow song. Thought it might be Patsy Cline, but not the case. Pasty did sing "Seven lonely nights" , but that's a faster tempo. Any help would be greatlyappreciated as her 3 daughters want to learn this song as part of a tribute to their mom. Thanks! Mark

Nah, I know what you meant about the pharmacist...I just added an aditional elemnt to it....or at least tried I get your comparrison and what you are saying about the pharmacist trying to control somebody els's life.. I was just adding to the fact that a person who decides to become a pharmacist in this day and age is pretty much setting out to do just that as they have to know about dipsensing contraceptives is a part of the job. Another way I see this is a contientious objecter to war. I get that people are against fighting and war. I respect that too. But if you are a contientious objecter to war, DO NOT join the military and when you are actually about to go to war - be upset with the military and complainm, fret and try to sue or change what you are rsupposed to do. War is a part of/ chance of happening part of being in the military. Filling prescriptions for birth control is part of a job as a pharmacist. If You get a job as a pharmacist and then pull out the "Birth control is against my religion" ..then it pretty much tells me you have a pre dispositioned agenda and knew ahead of time you were goping to try to impose your religious will on other people . And that's crappy. And while pharmacists are supposed to be the top knowledgeable experts when it comes to drugs..they are not doctors , nor are they privy to the what, why or reason for a dr prescribing something. As I mentioned before, my wife uses birth control to regulate and prevent a pretty serious hormonal imbalance - not birth control. But it does not say on her prescription what the reasons for that birth control are. So, the pharmacist is just assuming and jumping to conclusons as to what it is being used for. They are judging and creating bad, where there was no bad to begin with. Yeah, I'd call that real Christian-like behavior!

Basement< OGE wasn't insulting you..or at least he wasn't trying. He is simply stating your ccouncil/district, area is full of people doing the wrong things for the wrong reason. If I understand you correctly, they see scouting a a paycheck only: They collect money, they get paid, and they do not actually do anything in return for it. No work or effort on their part to provide a program, and they are all pretty much pissed at you because you call them out on it and expect them to dop what they are getting paid to do. I think most of us see that. So, what OGE is saying is simple as this: You got the candy that had the sugar left out, but that doesn't mean all the other candy makers are teh same. That candy you got was horrible and nasty and left a bad taste in your mouth. But if you had gotten your candy in another council or even region..You'd be thinking to yourself : "Damn! That was a great piece of candy!" OGE is simply saying that he wants you to realize that even though your district/ council pros are real asses, and do a pitiful job of most things - do not let those por's actions speak for or represent everybody. My thoughts? Personally, I say if WB helps what you do for your boys ( even the slightest bit), and even if it only gives you a bit of credential to what you already did anyways ....then it's a good thing. WB is for you, not your council paycheck jockeys.

I think it falls back to just what Moose said: very basic morals. Specifically what she said in "Do unto others as you would mhave them do unto you..." Meaning. let others make their own decisions and run their own life by making the choices they decide. And the kicker is this: If you were a pharmacist back around the time birth control first came out, I could see you having an objection to this new "evil" pill. But the pill ( along with other means of contraception) have been around so long now, that if you go to schoo to be a phamacist, then you are going into a profession that you already know has particulars that you object to. But again, the thing here is individual choice. The Catholic hospital is not an individual. It is a group or an association. The government is standing up for the individual here. It is not saying the hospital has to perform abortions on babies. The government is saying the hospital must leave that decision to the parent(s) as individuals, and not some board or group. And the thing here is rthat an individula is making a personal decision based on may reasons while the hospital is deciding , before hand , for everybody based on a personal tennat. Now, my next question about the pharmacist is this: Does that same pharmacist prscribe Viagra without any hesitation? Do the sell ( ring up at register) condoms? A diaphram? KY jelly or other lubricant for sex? What about Vicatin , Demeral( spell that right) Dilatin, or many of the other narcotics that so often get abused or people get addicted to? What about medicines used for ADHD and ADD? We all have seen how those get over prescribed and way too fast and often. I have seen it used for bahvior control just because a parent wants a "Be seen but not heard" & "Act like a grown up" child. Is that pharmacist going to object to that too? How about selling of beer or wine? Cigarettes too? - Yeah, some drug stores sell wine, beer and smokes down here in the south. They also sell lottery tickets too? So far, I have never seen on the news, or read in the papers where a pharmacist has objected to selling anything other than the pill. And it comes down to the pharmacist making a person choice for him/her self..what it is - is the pharmacist making a choice for somebody else based on their own personal beliefs. And that's where the hospital; falls to. The hospital is making a choice for others. The government is saying : No, you have to let individuals make thier OWN choice. Now lets change the question a bit: Do doctors have the right -as individuals -to refude to perform abortions as it goes against their personal values, beliefs, or tennants? I say absolutely! And I would bet that the dr in question would probably pursue the abotion option in the case where the abotion would in fact save the life of the mother due to severe or mortal defects in the baby that would prevent any life of the baby. And I'd give the individual Dr that chpoice as much as I give the dr the choice to decide on any procedure or operation. Becausde the Dr is only choosing his own participation - which does not prevent the patient from seeking the service from another doctor. Now, all of that aside, with the exception of abortions for medical reasons..I do not know why anybody seeking an abortion would go to a Catholic ( or any other religious) hospital in the first place. I would not go to Mickey D's seeking a vegan atmostphere. I would not go to a car dealership when looking to buy a boat. I would not go to the butcher seeking vegetarian recipees. You know what I mean? I wouldn't pm Kudu and ask him how to help promote WB to my district either! \But if I was a Catholic, and I needed an abortion due to impending mortality because of severe birth defects and real danger to my wife if she tried to carry to term...then yes - I would expect the Catholic "hospital" to perform that procedure.

Nah, not Godwin's Law. It wasn't a reference to or me making a comparrison of a point of view or argument as being Nazi like, It was a list of various dictators and the reference was to dictator like actions : "You accused me so now you will pay!" Maybe I should have used the British supreme Ruler from V for Vendetta as my example of what I meant? "Tonight, I will speak directly to these people and make the situation perfectly clear to them. The security of this nation depends on complete and total compliance. Tonight, any protestor, any instigator, or agitator will BE MADE EXAMPLE OF!

I get what you are asking Taserdoc, so I am going to answer the best I can. And my answers will be based on my position of leadership as a CubMaster. What would I do if: A) Nothing. As a leaderof a unit, Iam not in a position to handle or take care of this. This is a where as a leader, I should not be involved , lest you figure I handle complaints filed against me. (you see how that collapses the system right? ) B)At this point, I would talk with council as their lacsidasical attitude shows me they do not have the best interest of the scoutys, the reast of allleaders or BSA in mind. Just like a judge saying : "Your guilty! What is the charge?" C) This really scares me. This shows revenge and contemps on the part of the leaders reminiscent of Hitler, Saddam, Qhadaffi, etc.... This leadership hasd to go- excluding it it was a false alligation by a scout who has previously and constantly slandered the people in question. Then you have what others have said - an axe to grind as well as personal vendettas. D) Then I would do just that. Intergrity is by far more important than the public image in this case. My owm morals and simply following the scout law would demand that I do it. I know you sound taken aback by the " Stirring the pot" comments, but units are made up of people. Real , average people of all walks of life. SCouts, their parents, leaders, Concil straff, etc..... Some are the greatest people in the world and full of honor. Then on the other side of the spectrum, some see BSA as their persona tool to assist themn and olny then in whatever they do. Parents thing the unit is their for their child first and foremost. Leaders will become leaders just to steer and mold thier childs program as they see fit. I have heard of CubMasters who's only concern was their own son's advancement. Even got that from a person who wanted to be a jambo leader , but only to deal with their son. Scouting has a bunch of fine people in it, but ther are others too. The ones who will step on anybody's toes, will ruin a geat unit and defriend everybody and anybody in their path to get what gthey want from scouting. So yeah, "pots get stirred " in BSA just as much as dutch ovens get set in hot coals. But even the smallest, tiniest details can and do change how you approach what has transpired. (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Dammit! I have been mulling over the "woodsy" comment for a couple hours now, and I am still not sure if I was complimented or insulted. And even if I was insulted...that in itself might still be a compliment!

Nah, he still didn't speak for every gay man. He did speak for those that were a part of his group though. Just like the KKK doesn't speak for every white person, nor does Kudu speak for every scouter...this man does not speak for every gay person. I have enough gay friends to know so. But even if it was only one gay frind, it still says that they are not all anti religious. Matter of fact, they do not care what you do in your houise or what you want to do with your lives, They are not concerned with nor cussumed by what you do. But they only wish the same indifference towards them. They do not want or need you or me to criticisem, judge or examine everything or anything they do. The want the same privacy, the same rights and the same ability to live their lives they way the want, just like we want to live ours our way. Now I do agree completely with you about not respcting that man. His mission is more about vengance on others instead of bliss for himself. I do not respect that in anybody. And even though I do support equal rights, I also do not support the in your face "you have to accept and promote my life" tactics by gays either. If you do not accept that lifestyle...I support that . I do not accept Islam or Bhuddism as my lifestyle.. hut I do not deny it for oters either. To each his own. If we all just gave each other the same respect and coutesy we want ourselves...this wouldn'ty be an issue. Right? Point is, I can respect your felings and your right to have them even though I do not agree with them.,I only ask the ame in return: You do not have to agree to them or like them for yourself...just recognize amd respect my right to have them. It doesn't have to be any more complicated to me liking Pepsi versus you liking Coke.

I don't know about them redheads.....

" So! How about those Bears?" John Candy in Planes, trains, and automobiles

Even though I am borrowing Joe's quotes, I am not directing this post at any one person. "I thought 'pro-choice' meant people having a choice. Now it seems that the tolerant left has defined 'pro-choice' to mean 'doing it our way', or else! "We choose that your Cathollic doctors will perform abortions!" Funny, isn't the Catholic hospital doing the exact same thing? They are taking the choice away by refusing to do it. They are demanding others to follow their own beliefs. The choice belongs to the individual, not to the Doctor unless based on medical reasons. The doctor is supposed to respect the choice of the patient. Of course like Moose said, dentists and podiatrists and proctologists are not ssked or made to do these procedures. You mentioned: " Whatever happened to the cherished separation of church and state?" Well, those lines were blurred when religion asked the state for monetary support. It's a two way street. One goes with the other. You can't have seperation when you ask for non religious funding to suppport and promote a religious program. If you want it seperate, you have to keep it completely seperate. And just to let everybody know...my stance on abortion is this: As of right now, I do not believe in it , nor do I ever expect to support it. But who knows, maybe if my wife got pregnant and the baby was so severely deformed that the chance of life would be nil AND continuing with the pregnacy would also endanger or kill my wife...I would think I'd be for it then. But I can honestly say I do not know how I'd feel until it happens since I never have been in that position. But even though those are my beliefs, I do not expect others with other beliefs to have to follow mine. I believe in the right to make our own choices for ourselves and not to force our choices on others or have others choices forced on me. Another example is birth control. If you have a problem with using it, dont! But do not get a job as a pharmacist, then prevent others from having based on your own beliefs ( which is denying them the rigfht to their beliefs) then cry about your own beliefs being violated when you have to fill the prescription. I mean, WOW! YOu just traded places with the other person ruight? You have no issues denying them their beliefs, but then cry about your own when having to respect theirs. Then their ios another side to it. My wife is on the pill. We do not use it for birth control. She uses it to maintain what is a hormonal imbalance. She will not have her monthly visitor if she isn't on the pill. Atr least not on a regular basis. She might have a visit 4 times a month or once every 6 months or any strange combination of...except when she is on the pill. w Pain, cramping, headaches, stomach aches, nausea ware all common for her until she got on the pill. So for that reason, I do not need anybody to look down their judgmental nose at my wife and try to deny her something based on beliefs that have nothing to do with why my wife had the prescription in the first place. On top of that, my wife does not owe any pharmacist any explanation or justification as to why her prescription should be filled. If this is a problem with the pharmacist, they should quit and get a job at McDonalds serving up instant heart attacks and artery clogging fast food. Maybe a side of diabeaties. What? Sloth and gluttony aren't as important sins to take a stand on?

Our council and alot of scouters in our district ( when volunteering their bb guns for district events) use the Daisy Red Ryder spring air rifle. It has more spring than air to it. They usually set the targets 15 feet from the barrel line and mats. They are very low power and as far as firepower goes, ideal for boys who are shootying a bb gun for the very first time. But once a scout is experienced, these guns are more of a hinderance than good. The triggers are very stiff and doe scause problems of maintaining accuracy while pulling the trigger. My son can take the camp bb gun and hit the target at 15 feet, but when we go home, he can hit a bull'seye at 200 feet with his .22 rifle. No, not even suggesting camps have .22 rifles, but they could use better bb guns. My son also has a Daisy air rifle that shoots at 880 feet per second. Technically, it's a small game air rifle. It will kills small rodents and birds and even small dogs. Smother trigger and he learns more about breath control and squeezing a trigger versus snatching or pulling a trigger.

"More importantly it's about the time when a lot of the Christmas goodies are about done." About? Ours al done for about the time New Years rolls in. I'm working on Velentines and summer goodies right now!

yeah, one gay man does not speak for every gay man. I know people who are animal activists. They love animals and put them on equal ground as humans. To an extent. Then you have those who would watch twenty people die in order that one animal be freed ( say if a building was on fire). Some animal activists would blow up buildinga and murder innocent peole to promote their cause...but that does not mean every animal activists fels that way. Shoot, just look in this formun. Kudu specifically and his feelings about Wood Badge. If you take his viewpoint, BSA is in the middle of illegally and maliciously trying to destroy Boy Scouts of America . So does that mean we are all trying to destroy BSA and are all participating in an illegal activity if we do not side with kudu's veiwpoint? That gay guy may very well been trying to further his cause and BSA probably was his stepping stone. I have no reason to not believe you in what you say. But I also know a handfull of gays and lesbians...Other than a few obvious differences, they are just like us: A place to call home, a place to spend quality time with loved one, a decent paying job, able to eat decent meals, have fun, retire, etc... They are not all members of a "lets ruin America and slander God , and insult others." club. And truth be told, All I ever see the gays ask for is to be treated equally,and just like everybody else. It's the other side who demads that all of society should bend to their own interests. I

We have been averaging 69/ 70 degrees the last two weeks with a record high( this date in time) of 76 last Tuesday . 6 more weeks of winter? Who cares?

"No where in what he posted did it say that the program was offered as part of Jamboree as a courtesy to those from out of the country" WEll, actually, it does. "to be held in conjunction with our friends from Scouts de Mexico. " But nowhere does it say this is for illegals or non english speaking citizens. Nowhere does it say it's a permanant thing to WB or that all WB will be this way. It's just for when the Mexican Boy Scouts will be visiting during Jambo.

"So "gay marriage" is viewed quite simply as a deliberate sacrilege by folks who come from that tradition " Yeah, but that's the problem...the gays do not see it as that. They simply want the same type of service for themselves. Gays believe in God too. Gays are religious people too. So now, groups "a" thinks group "B" should not get married because groups "A" is insulted? That's like Bhuddists saying Christians should not be allowd to celebrate Christmas because the Bhuddists do not believe in Christmas and think celebrating Christmas is simply as a deliberate sacrilege . SO why should Christians forfiet their own beliefs based on somebody else's? I don't know, but it's the same thing the gays are asking? Why should they forfiet their own beliefs and feelings because you do not agree with them? My wife and myself bought our house 5 months before we got married. But we had been planning our getting married for a year . We had been dating for 3 years before that for a total of 4 years before getting married. We will have been married for 16 years in 2 months. But would you belive that quite a few people thought we were an abomination to marrage because we lived together for 4 months before we got married? Yep! That's right. We slept in the dame bed beside each other . Yep! We were viewed quite simply as a deliberate sacrilege of marrage and God by a handfull of people. About half of those people are divorced or seperated. I am still hapily married. Go figure! Point is, at what point was my wife and I supposed to put our own thoughts, feelings and beliefs aside because somebody else didn't agree to them? At what point did my and my wifes ideals become open to their dissection and opinion? At what point do any of us have to live based on somebody else's ideals and why do they elevate themselves to assume anything we do is a deliberate sacrilege to their beliefs? Kinda sounds like they need an ego check and a few bubbled popped!

I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier: When we go camping at Camp ( John A. )McNeill Cub Scout World - wich is abuttied up against Camp Bowers Boy Scout Camp - of which both are located at Cape fear Scout Reservation ( in White Oak, NC........ .....my pack usually tries to reserve a spot at the First Union (bank) Field. This is just left of the Carolina Power & Light( electric company) Pirate Ship which is just around 10 yards past the (John G. ) Goldsworth mines. I have taken most of my scouter training as well as YPT, BALOO, and POW WOW at the BB&T (bank) training center. Alot of our cub scouts enjoy the ( United Carolina Bank ) western fort. Every bulding, every activity center or amusement, trails, ranges, lakes, etc......are names after a donor or former scouter, humanitarian, etc...who gave either a donation of time or money or goods to our camps. Seems like our council is setting a fine example of recognition to which we should be able to follow...right?

Get outdoors.. It saddens me tat you "read" that this course is for non english speaking US citizens when I will bet you that not a single piece of advertising literature ever aid that this is what the course was for. It further saddens me that you ignored the many, many posts explaining this was a gesture to our VERY welcome guests from Mexico during their visit from Mexico durinmg the Jambo. NOw, as Srem said, I would say more, but I'd hate to be banned from this site as I have come to enjoy it very well for the information I learn from the scouters who do not demostraight tunnelvison and prjudice. Thing is, if you were to really study the "english" language, you would actually find out there is no such thing as an original American language, but in fact that every word in our language came from "foriegn countries as all the original "Americans" immigrated here from other countries. The exception being Native Americans. Go cry to them about immigrants and how the "American" language is being ruined by a different language. When they offer you sympathy, I will also. Bet you also jumped on the anti french fry bandwagon because they were french- didn't you?

" When Catholic hospitals stop accepting government money, can they stop accepting non-Catholic patients?" They should be allowed to do just that, with the exception of the emergency room - in which even private hospitals who can turn down non insured - have to at least stabilize a patient in an emergency. And I never said anything about legal overriding moral. But you have to ask, how moral is it to take my money, but refuse to treeat me based on my lifestyle or own morals? You'd think if you can turn me away for my atrocious lifestyle, that you'd turn away my atrocious money too. And the thing about morals is this: who's morals do you want to be treated by? I would guess you want to be treated with, and handled with morals that are the same as yours. So what if you end up at a non catholic hospital and they treat you using a set of standards that are not consistant with your religious beliefs..or worse, refuse to perform certain procedures because you are a catholic? Same thing, just turned around. And I say let the Catholic hospitals refuse, but they also need to be ready to accept that they might lose the funding. Either you play the game by the rules or you drop out. Nobody is making them accept federal dollars.