Scoutfish

" All the town did was create all beliefs equal." Ooops! I meant to say, all the town did was create a situation where all beliefs were treated equal.

theyve taken this idea of no establishment as persecution, because they feel entitled, not to equal status, but to greater status. As a God Believing man myself, I couldn't agree more. I have personally seen it myself at town hall meetings: Some people only wanted a specific Christian prayer to be said at the beginning of town hall meetings, regardless of the make up of those in attendance or the makeup of the town. When the town opted to rotate out different prayers for the different citizens who regularly attended, only the Christin groups complained and had a fit about it. So the town did trhe only fair thing it could, it dropped any and all prayer, and elected instead to have a moment of silence before opening session. This of course caused those few people to claim they were being persecuted. Never mind they were doing the exact same thing to the other groups beliefs. All the town did was create all beliefs equal. Only one group saw it as persecution. "Do as I say, not as I do"

Seattle, Don't take Perry's commentys as the governments comments. The government dos not care if you pray or if you elect not to pray. The government only says that the school ( as a govt entity) cannot force you to or deny you the right to pray. The school cannot choose to "officially) conduct a prayer of any one particular religion. However, individula students and rgroups of students ( clubs) can have prayer on their own accord and be recognized as a group for such prayer as long as all other religious or non religious groups are allowed the same freedom. In Merly's case, they should not be expected or forced to take part in the prayer. In your case, you can take the time to pray as long as all others are afforded the same right as individulas. A Christian group could have a "Christian students club" at school as long as other religions are allows the same right..such as Muslim, Buddist, etc. The problem is that people like Perry see a very small part of a rule, and advertise it broadly beyond the rule's meaning and intent. Seperation of church and state (simply put) just says that government cannot force religion on you, cannot deny you any religion, nor regulate which religion you participate in. The government cannot create a religion or recognize one as superior to the others, or superior to those who do not follow a religion. People on the other hand ( like Perry) run amok and go overboard with it. And although I am a religious person, I do think goverm=nment needs to be in the buisness of religion anyways. Merly should not be subject to laws based on my religious beliefs. You should not be held to laws based on Merlyns beliefs. One day, if Muslims become the majority, I am sure you do not want to be subject to laws based on their beliefs as they should not be subject to laws based on our/my/your beliefs today. Again, Perry is either grasping at straws for his political career, misinformed, or blatantly malicious as Merlyn says.

Well, stupid is an equal oppertunity affliction.

My council just handed out two seperate surveys to units. One is for those who sold popcorn, the other is for units that didn't sell. I already answered both surveys as our unit fell in between. We sold popcorn, but nothing close to spectacular. So, I am just curious as to what your replies would be. Survey for units that sold popcorn Name ________________________ Phone _________________ Email _________________________ Unit type _______ Unit # ________ 1) What changes to the popcorn sale would help your unit increase sales? 2) Please share tips your unit has used to be successful in the popcorn sale. 3) Would you be willing to adopt a leader from a unit that does not sell popcorn? (The goal would be for you to share with that person the successes your unit has experienced with popcorn and to get the unit on board to sell in 2012). 4) Will your unit sell popcorn in 2012? 5) Please list any other comments/suggestions related to the popcorn sale. Survey for units that opted out of selling popcorn Name ________________________ Phone _________________ Email _________________________ Unit type _______ Unit # ________ 1) What was the reason(s) that your unit decided not to sell popcorn? 2) What changes (if any) do you feel need to be made to the popcorn sale? 3) If the above changes are made would your unit consider selling popcorn? 4) Please list any other comments or suggestions below.

My son is allergic to peanuts. If he eats peanut butter, he has the best of reations: He will get kinda quiet, and usually within one minute, throw up. Maybe throw up twice. Then then it's over with. The worst thing he suffers from is mortal embarassment. We are lucky in the fact that he recognizes if he eats a peanut laden food. His throat gets a "funny feeling" and his stomach gets alittle warm, Then his mouth waters and he knows what is next. Now, I could throw peanuts at him, and all that will happen is he throws them back at me. I will inadvertantly start a peanut throwing war. But no reaction. I can eat a whole jar of peanut butter and breath all over him. The worst that will happen is a coment on my breath. No reaction. We have a boy in our pack who will get red itchy spots in peanut shells touch him for more than a few seconds. He has a reaction just from reading the word peanut! So my point is, it's different for everybody. My son can eat some things that are cooked in peanut oil, but not other things. I guess it depend on the quality and brand of peanut oil. Of course, most Asian restaurants in my area cook with peanut oil because it is cheap. So no Chinese or Thai foods for him. He can eat Cinnamin Toast Crunch trail bars even though they do list peanuts as an aingrediant, but cannot eat other products with a lower level of peanuts in it...so the process in which the peanuts are handled or cooked or procesed also makes a diference. AS for picky eaters who are just pickey for the sake of being picky..... they will either get over that or learn to bring their own. For allergies, we work with them as much as is reasonable expected: We will buy a bar or two of white chocolate for campfire smores. We will buy a loaf of special bread, we will usually offer two differt choices at mealtime anyways. But if a scout can only eat grade A triple Gold rated fillet mingon at all meals - well mom or dad better go shopping. We will cook it, but we aren't paying for it. If a scout or parent tells us the only eat X brand of hot dogs instead of Y brand, then we tell them to eat X brand or go hungry or buy their own. Unless it's a kosher thing. If their religion requires kosher hot dogs, we buy them and have no problem doing so. As a side note, if you never tried them before, Hebrew National hot dogs are Kosher hot dogs and they are AWESOME! They cost more, but man, they are good.

Funny story: Back in high school, my English II teacher used to respond to our complaints of classwork or homework with: "THis is not a democracy..This is a dictatorship and I am the dictator! Failure to comply will result in death by homework!" Incidentally, that was probably the coolest teacher I ever had!

" No way in the world am I ever, and I mean ever, going to be ok with the notion that some 16-17 year old kid is capable, not only of driving, but possibly also of instructing other teens to operate a PWC or ATV. The potential for kids to get carried away and tragically misjudge is just too great." I agree and disagree. I guess it dpends on who is teaching the scouts and comparing it to who else would be teaching the scout if they didn't get taught at camp. Okay, heres a pro for the program: Since another yout of the same age shows the scout what to do, and a certain amount of peer respect will kick in. Or at the least, you don't have the automatic "You're an old fogey and don't get us so your way is sooooo dumb" factor. Know what I mean? If an adult tells you something, you have to just nod in a patronizing way because we all know they are not cool and things are different now. Another thing to consider is if the scout doesn't learn from a trained scout...who does he learn from? Mom and dad? Yaeh, another automatic case of patronizing the parents - right up til they are not looking again and then you throw all safety to the wind in order to do something cool. Now, while I am not suggesting all or even half of souther adult ATV riders are irresponcible, I do want to tell you what I have seen in my area in particular: Dads pulling young kids on upside down car hoods at high speeds through the wter after a flooding rainstorm or hurricane. Same parent pulling same kids on same car hood through snow. Same parents battling with 2X4's in four wheeler "jousting events". Again, not saying all, or ewven half of ATV owners are that careless or stupid. But at least in my area, a good proportion of the youth have those wonderful mentors to teach them how to handle using ATV and during the summer, PWC's too. And that's the kicker of it too. Age itself does not automatically ensure responcibility and or garantee any level of maturity. On the CON side of things: A yout instructor may not hold alot of authority or credibility woith other scouts of the same or close age. There is always a chance that a big sized 17 year old scout may think he just knows more than the insructor or could handle things better because he's bigger and/or stronger than the instructor. But let's be honest, he'd act that way to any instructor withy that kind of mentality. So what it comes down to is this: Is BSA sayin g they are going to make youth into safe operators who always use the best judgement and that from noiw on out they will be so mature as to never ever need any guidance from now on? No, of course not, otrher wise our jobs as parents would have been over already due to all the other things taught during scouting. All BSA is doing is offerening a fun oppertuinity to participate in an event at campm in order to keep camping ( and ultimately, scouting ) more fun in order to help keep boys in the program. From a personal perspective: If scouts have to pass a basic boating skils class in order to ride a PWC, then they have by far surpassed what skills are required to go whitewater rafting, mountain climbing or flying that I or any other adult would be required to have if I were to go rafting , mountain climbing or flying right now as part of a commercial activity. Matter of fact, the first time I ever rode a ATV was when I was 18 and I was given a 5 minute run down before being turned loose on a race track on the Outer Banks of NC. Next time I rode one was from an EMS standpoint during a huge Christmas parade. Firts time I piloted a waverunner was during a water rescue class where it was assumed that I should just know what to do as an adult. Flying? Well, never been in a plane, but been in many helicopters for rescue or firefighting purposes. Luckily for everybody involved, I just rode and did not piulot. And who knows, maybe some of tose yuoth are just like me: Naturally able to just operate almost any kind of equipment. I have been told I am a natural at it wether it be backhoes, excavators, fire engines and pumps, cascade systems, scizzor lifts, boats, ATV's and PWC's , hydrofoils, dumptrucks and big equipment. It comes down to this though: BSA is not issuing a state recognized operations license, they are just showing the scouts safe operation.

Beavah asks if people even understand what socialism is. Well........ most people don't even know what our country is: It's a Republic, not a democracy like most people think!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Well, I don't know about the youth in everybody else's areas, but in my neck of the woods, boys never do anything on their own personal time that isn't offered in scouting. No dirt bikes, no trail bikes, no four wheelers( ATV) no four wheelers ( pickup truck) They do not hunt anything that resembles living creature ( they hunt the elusive bull's eyed, paperback target dragon) , they do not use powertools of any sort, and they do not drive. Poor things are stuck living with all their non scout friends who drive them everywhere. Now, I suppose that if you haven't figured it out yet, I am being a smart ass. In my area, boys hunt, shoot, and dress out deer by age nine ( with mom or dad of course). By age 16, they can hunt on their own. Some will drive a 4X4 truck, others stay on their own property and use ATVs. I have seen ATV's used for fun, but they are being used more and more for work. In my area, there are real idiots who zip all over the water way, weaving through boats just for the chance to jump the wakes left behind the boats. But they are also used by guides for sight casting in shallow creeks and bays, and by salt water fly fisherman. They will creep along in a creek who's water is only 9 inches deep. They fit in tight places too. All the local water rescue agencies use them too. As far as polluting, Every PWC I have seen is a four stoke. The boats that travel down the waterway are a mix of 4 stroke and 2 stroke, with 2 stroke prevailing right now( yeah, that's slowly changing - but still, the 2 strokes out number the 4). And I suppose you know that 2 syroles spit ALOT oil out of their exhaust. But then, I think about all the idiots who have driver's licenses. They zip around the highways , driving way over the speed limit,radios blaring, exhaust systems roaring, too fast in residential neighborhoods, drinking and driving, thinking all the rules do not aply to them. They pass around curves and other no passing areas, fly past stopped school buses, road rage and all. So, the only difference between ATV's PWC's and Motor Vehicles is basically the dreiver and how he operates his vehicle. And trust me - as a person who argueably spends too much time on the water way - the real idiots are the upper class dad's who are out in their 24 foot pontoons boats with their social elite queen wives who are drinking mixed drinks while pulling their kids around on oversized innertubes. They will do a 180 in the middle of the waterway without even glancing around to see who is where. Of course, since they own a beach house, they know the water that connects to both sides of the beach belongs to them. Besides, they make 6 figures so they can do whatever they want!

"I have a policy that CalicoPenn is not allowed to post any more. " Yeah, but there are a couple differences: 1) This is not your site. 2) You are not a partial owner, person in charge, or even a governing board member of this website. 3) Calico didn't sign a written agreement declaring he is going to abide by, uphold, and to follow your rules while wearing the uniform of or being a member in good standing of your organazation- in order to be a part of your organazation " Fact is, "policy" or not, scouts across this great land of ours routinely, as troops and even as councils, raise money for causes outside of scouting, or contribute council funds to other local NFPs. " Fact is, people commit murder, rob banks, break the speed limit , commit insurance fraud, and lie too. But just because they do it does not make it right. Just because people break policy does not mean the policy is wronmg or shopuld be ignored. Some of my Webelos scouts have been seen to act more mature than some of the older scouts. Maybe I'll just break policy, tell them they are now Eagle scouts and and hand them a beer or two. I mean, all the rules and requirements are just a dumb policy and BSA cannot really do anything about it right? Drinking age? ....well. didn't I mention how mature they are?

Calico's perfect post not withstanding... " this is not the hill to die on for any party " Agreed, a party is not a hill to die on, but it goes deeper than that. It'sd about the people who put the hill there to start with; This could have just as easily been "Troop Christmas Party" but obnly for those who sold over $1000.00 in camp cards. Could be the "TROOP Christmas Party" but only if you were promoted a rank between October and November. Could be the "TROOP Christmas" party, but only if you attend the same church as the SM or SPL. Problem is, if the whole TROOP isn't automatically invited, then it's not a troop party. I can understand if you say you have to be active or still on the troop roster at council. But what you have here in the OP is not a "TROOP" anything! It's a private, select persons party. And If I was a member of that units committe I'd see to it that the troop funds did not pay for it. If the select group wants to have that kind of party, let them pay for it themselves and it will not be an offical troop function or require troop dress. Might as well call it a TROOP party , but only allow Life Scouts and above to attend.

" Basically, they self-appointed themselves as ASM without SM or CO say-so. " Time to hold a meeting with trhese self apointed people and explain to them that - in just acting thisway, trhey hyave completely shown they are not worthy to be leaders as they just bent, broke or violated the rules, the intent of the program and what it takes to be a leader . Then tell them they bcan appoint themselves as newly retired from their self appointed positions or they can be kicked out...their choice!

WEll, at first I thought: "Oh great, there goes simple fun camping in the way of high tech fun". But you know...if you could teach boys how to responcibly operate a piece of equipment that otherwise does not require any training whatsoever....then it might not be such a bad thing. I'd still limit it to HA camps, but make it into a merit badge of sorts> It wouldn't just consist of simple fun rides, but training on proper operation, safety, courtesey while operating, maintainance of the ATV/ PWC For the PWC, you could require passing a basic navigation laws test> What doies this marker mean? What does this bouy mean? Who has right of way in this situation? Both could place a special emphasis on LNT while still enjoying the use of the ATV/PWC What special ttpes of first aid sityuations might you run into while operationg a PWC/ ATV? Nah, I wouldn't use them at a regular concil camp, but HA is supposed to be HIGH adventure.

Well, well well...Mr. Negativity aren't we? You do realize that at 30% off, you can finally justify buying that 10 pack of Tiger Cub clickable ink pens now don't you? Yeah, that's what I thought!

Yeah, our boys are ready ( in their minds) to be boy scouts too. But the problem is there is too mucgh change happening at one time. That's why I say you take the lowest part of Boy Scouts and make that the highest part of Webelos. The problem is, we are basically saying this to them: "You are gonna be big boys, you will have all sorts of responcibility and you will be all mature. So here's how we are gonna change you from parent dependant cubs to independant Boy Scouts: Repeat after me....On my honor..." So we tell them what to expect,and we have them understand the parts of the badge and recite a promise from memory. So? I could recite an airline pilots creedo and identify the parts of a plane, but that does not make me a piloty. Somewhere, there needs to be an actual physical learning/ training time. Time for them to actually do what they are expected to do in Boy Scouts. WEbelos III wouldn't be about another year of cub scouts, it would be about getting used to the dynamics of Boy scouts and how it works. THis is where you learn to get away from mom and dad wiping your nose and bringing a secret stash of PB&J sandwhiches. Pretty much, by the time you do cross over to boy scouts, you are ready to earn your merit badges, earn your rank and be a boy scout without mom and ad in tow. Basically, you have all your cub scouting behind you and done.

Okay, not having worked with much other than a pack, and my troop work being limited to out sister troop, plus some MBC and camporee staff work...I cannot even claim to be up to par wirth the age structure any of you are proposing, but...... I do have a thought, and realize, this is more due to parents and the way they handle their scouts instead of the scouts themselves. What if you kept the first 3 years of Cub Scouts the same: Tiger: 1st grade / 6 years old Wolf: 2nd grade / 7 years old Bear: 3rd grade / 8 years old Then at that point, you are done with your pack. At tis time, you join a Webelos Team. Team is just as much a part of the CO as the pack, but is as distinct as the troop , or crew or ship is from the pack. Webelos I: 4th grade/ 9 years old Webelos II: 5th grade/ 10 years old Webelos III: 6th grade/ 11 years old Change the AOL by upping the age requirement 1 additional year. Take the lowest rank ( or non rank) of boy scouts and use that the same as your AoL requirements , and alow the same bridging early at 11 1/2 , 6 months, etc... Now, the whole reason for this is basically for a better transition to boy scouts. While we try to carry ouit a Webelos program as a transituion away from regular cub scouting...and we try to make it more about Boy Scouting...we still have our Webelos march in for pack meetings, still have them regulated to pack activities and events at campouts and council camps. Now, I said that parents are part of the blame. I actually give them a bigger share of that. While the Webelos are going through some changes in the program itself, the parents still see them as Cub Scouts. They still come to den meetings like all the ranks uf cubscouts do. They still show up to pack meetings, B7G events, still wipe their noses and fix their hair. So other than a hike, a SM meeting and learning the Boy Scout Oath, motto, ect..where is the real transition at? Again, I have not worked extensively with a troop, but I have worked with a tropopm or two. I'm still friends with many parents and scouts who went to our sister troop and 2 other troops. I have seen where a coiuple scouts drop out completely, ot take a year off because the adjustment was too much too fast. So it really isn't so much as getting ready for Boy Scouts as it is stepping away from Cub Scouts Nah, I don't have a perfect answer, but just some thoughts bouncing around.

Depends. I rotate thiongs around. Sometimes I have a CubMaster minute, sometimes we end with a short prayer, sometimes a joke or an audience participation song,. sometimes I just say: "WEll...that's it, see you next week!" Depends on the boys and how they are acting.

"Definitely NOT "going on strong." " No, I stand behind what I said - taking into account of all the other oppertunitis clubs, organazations and the internet competing with scouting. In our council this year, 13 new troops and 8 new packs were created this year alone. Membership increased by 17 %. I have no clue what the numbers are regarding crews or ships as I mostly stick in the troop/pack circles and the troops comprise alot of the crew/ship numbers. So, considering all the competition, all the other things that youth could do, all of the other oppertunities snatching up youth and in the social and economic world we live in right now...scouting is going on strong.

I do get what you are saying 83... Reminds me of NASCAR - yes, I am a NASCAR fan. If you listen to trhe fans, about 50% of them will tell you each and every day , what is wronmg with the sport, what should be done, what should be completely changed and why their way would be better. I used to be on the NASCAR forums quite a bit. Everyday , and especially after races, fans would write about why trhe sport is dying, why it wouldn't lkast another year and why fans were leaving by the thousands... Yet, teh sport is thriving as much as any sport can under the economic conditions we have> For every fan that "claims" to leave, 3 or 4 take his/her place with as much spirit and enthusiasm as any fan could ever have. Funny thing is, not only have these fans been making these claims for at least the past 7 years ( that I know of) and the sport is stil around..but those same naysayer fans are still watching NASCAR with every one of it's horrible flaws and problems. I guess BSA is the same way: Still going on strong with not only the economic conditions we are experiencing, but going on strong with all the rival oppertunities that didn't always exist in the past - ie: Computers, chat rooms, sports, school, other civic activities and groups, peer pressure, etc.... So what does it really come down to? People are not satisfied that BSA isn't run exactly the way they want it to be run. Everything isn't exactly to their specs. I know I will never agree with every aspect of anything in my life, but that don't mean it isn't great! By the way, I am having a blast working as CM of my pack, MBC of our sister troop and district, District committee and Council camp promotor for my district. Let them complain, I'm tooo busy having fun!

Reminds me of my niece's birthday party when she was 7 or 8 years old. My sister-in-law booked the party at one of those indoor gymnasiums with the super version of the MacDonalds play climbing contraptions. The place also made the cake and served pizza as well as "X" number of tokens for games. WEll, my niece, as well as a few other cousins and a few friends were running around gplaying and having a good time. My sis inlaw was fussing because about 8 kids didn't show up due to previous obligations, soccer games, being sick, etc... She sdaid the pizza was cheap and not very flavorful, the fruit drink was kinda bland but over sweetened too. THe games were kinda hokey and boring, etc... Just over all, it was a failure of a party> Until my niece runs up and hugs her mom and tells her this was the best birthday party to have ever been held in the entire histry of the world! Ever! Of EPIC proportions! I guess nobody thought to tell the birthday girl rthat she was wrong and actually having a miserable time. I have always rememberedn that day and always remind myself that - just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder...fun or quality ( or whatever it may be) is in the mind of the individual. So as a 40 year old person, I could nit pick and find fault with a ton of stuff that has to do witrh scouting.....but I have to remind myself that the scouts themselves might be having a blast and really getting alot from the program.

Our council's top seller also hit just over $5,000.00 The 2nd and 3rd place guys wre in the high $3,000.00's . I was totally blown away and impresssed when the highest cub in our pack hit $500.00 !

I guess it sometimes depends on your mindset going into things. Being on the coast, I have spent my fair share of boat ramp experiences. Sadly enough..the more people who come to the coast..the less access and available ramps there are - people buying up property and the whole NIMBY (not in my back yard) syndrome when it comes to boat ramps. Funny thing is, I watch people line up at the public boat ramp and complain about everybody in front of them taking too long. Basically, they are standing there waiting up to 30 to 40 minutes for their own turn to launch a boat. So what do they do during that time? That talk, they look around, they stare at other people waiting, and they complain about the wait. Then when they finally get their turn, they back their boats down and stop just shy of the water, then load the cooler from the truck, get their lifejackets from the truck, get their fishing poles from the truck, get extra jackets, snacks, food, etc...from the truck. Then they decide it's a good time to see if the damn boat will even crank up! All that time they stood waiting around and they did nothing but complain about all the other slow pokes in front of them wasting time! There have been days that I took a small coler to the boat ramp and a chair too. I just park in the non trailer parking area, pull out my chair, sit and drink a pepsi and eat a sandwhich while just watching these clueless people get bent out of shape at each other. So, with the right mindset, it can be fun. Oh, you know how much damage you can do to a rubber pump impeller if you crank your outboard moter while it's out of the water? I watch people not only crank them, but rev those motors up and down while bone dry!

I had a thought today, about what you could do: Send it in to SCOUTING magazine as one of those "What would you do" questions> No, it sure won't fix what happened, but it would bring up a bunch of interesting responces and maybe, the leaders of this unit ( that were not at the park) will get to wondering and possibly make the connection opf what their boys did on that day> Maybe it could be an eye opener. But at the very least, the next Basement will have an idea of what he could say or do...according to a national of scouters via Scouting magazine!

Having had more time to think about it...I'm thinking it really doesn't matter what you would have said. They are already in the mindset that they were in. Unfortunatly, this will always be the kind of scouters who give BSA a bad public image.