Scoutfish

Absolutely hand on! The FA class I taught to our sister troop was totally hands on. Brought a pack of magic markets and bologna with me. Drew wounds, drew cuts, made bologna injuries. Every scout had a turn being the victim and getting carried, bandaged, worked on , etc..... by the rest of the scouts. Nothing beats handsw on.

Thanks, I'll use those, but still..... I know I am not nuts. In one of my books, it has a list on two opposing pages. Thought it was cub scout leader handbook, but didn't find it. Also looked in the how to book, programs and ceremonies, and afew others. but cannot find it. It was as great list too.

Having thought about it more... It is possible now that he was talking about western countries. I remember his using a few Latin American countries as examples. Could be he was talking about NA and SA and not the European or far east countries. Could be he was talking the difference between democratic, republic, and monarchy's too. Was a long time ago.

Okay, need some help here: In one of my scouting books, I had that list of goofy/comical awards. But I cannot find it anywhere now. Know the list I am talking about? Example: You give somebody a fan for doing a FANtastic job. A checker for "keeping things in CHECK". You give them a toy top for being TOPS at what you do. It was a big list with about 50 different kinds of awards. Thought it was in the Cub Scout Leader Handbook..but I can't find it. I saw it in one of my books, but swear I cannot find it in any of them now.

As to the OP: Touriquets are like everything else... One year they are promoted, next year they are discouraged, next year they are banned, next year, they are considered the most advanced item ever. Look at CPR: Does anybody even know how many times it has been updated, changed, modified, changed again in the last 20 years? Then look at proticals : State to state are different. Counties within a state are different, The sponsoring hospital ( when multiple within a county) the head Dr who is in charge of protocal and S.O.P.'s . THen you have the AHA who says this, but the Red Cross say that. Somebody has to choose which way to go. First aid policy is almost like a city borad of commissioners . Every time somebody new is in charge, about half the policies and rules get changed. Back when I ran EMS, Tourniquets were allowed, but you only used them in very extreme cases. This was usually due to loss of limb or extremely sever cuts/ mualings. Never used them for snakebites or stuff like that as it turns out..sonner or later the tourniquets has to come off and all it did so far was allow the level of poison to build up - so when you released the tourniquet you ended up with a big concentrated dose being let loose at once instead of a small amount to slowly get through. And as KC9DDI alluded to, in cases where there is clean amputation, muscle, nerves and arteries and viens tend to pull back and close off quite q bit. It's not the same as cutting a waterline and watching a full diameter pipe spray out under full volume. With clean amputation( and by clean, I do not mean butcher shop meat slicer neat) blood flow is way less. One more thing: Supose you have a nasty gash on your calf. You do not just put a tourniquet at your knee to stop blood flow. Why? Because you stop blood flow to everything below the tourniqet if you do. This means you are starving your entire calf ( not just the cut) the front of your leg, your foot, ankle, toes, etc...of bllod and oxygen. The best thing to do is apply pressure to the wound and elevate if possible. Again, that was back when I was running EMS. I'm not going to even try and guess how many times protocol and standard operating procedures have changed back then. KC9DDI..... what was your policy of MAST trousers? Bet it was about the same as ours. Can't tell you how many times we put them on for wrecks, but I think we only ever inflated them once at the direction of the dr on call at the hospital.

"As a simple example, a military medic is going to be far more likely to be able to distinguish between truly severe bleeding and something less severe, and therefore the risk of overly aggressive action is much less. Military medics are also more likely to perform procedures rapidly and correctly. " And how do you come to this conclusion? As a former fifefighter/ EMT myself, I have to ask. So a medic - in hostile circumstances ( gun fire, fighting, thinks expolding around him) - will have a better chance of determining how bad a wound( that is covered by more clothing, body armour, dirt, flying debris) based on looks? The bleeding ( which may be at a higher, faster rate due to adrenalin, stress, and the excitement of what is going on) can be from a bad cut, puncture wound or who knows what. Not only is he looking out for the patient, he is also looking out for himself and trying to avoid getting shot at, hit by shrappenel, bombs, etc..and still looking out for the enemy. NOw the medic - who has a limited supply of equipment due to space constraints) may improvise or just do without. And while that improvising is a very cool and skilled thing...it doesn't always work our. Now take your typical EMS worker who is not in a war zone, is not getting shot at, and isn't trying to examone a person on the ground who may or may not have been rolling around in dirt, have shrappenal burns,...with a stocked ambulance or first responder vehicle at his disposal. Not to mention that ALS ( advanced life support) is only minutes away........ WEll, guess who is calmer, more relaxed and not as rushed to make a evaluation of the partient. Also, you figure a medic does two main things : Stabilize ( same as ems) but also will give a filed dose of morphine/ dilatin, etc ...which , while halping the patient with pain, also causes a cvhange in BP, pulse and patient reaction and response. At this point, you may make a diagnosis of the patient that is wrong. So, now if you want to say a medic has to work in hasher, more stressful and extreme circumstances - well, I agree completely with you on that one. But to say he make better decisions is unvalidated and wrong. Being next door to a military installation or two ( Camp Lejune, Camp Johnston, Camp Geiger, Camp Davis) WE had our share of military people we transported in. We trasnported to 5 different hospitals( Naval @ Lejune, Onslow, Pender, Cape fear, and New Hanover) hospitals. When it came to our Marines and Navy, they prefered EMS 10 to 1 over the corpsmen. They prefered civilian ems over medics. Why? Medics tend to do more triag evaluation that treatment. Patient is gonna make it ( try to stabilze for eventual transport to MASH unit ( ot whatever they call it now)or patient not gonna make it - shoot him up so it doesn't hurt.

acco, I completely get what you are saying here. Honestly, I am willing to be that at least half of the people who get tattoos will regret it later on down the road. I will bet that at least Half will wish they did not get one, or just not as many/ not as big/ not as noticible. But it was because they didn't seriously consider the long term impact of it, or didn't take into consideration of why they got that tattoo. Me, I wanted one since I was 15 years old. I didn;t get one until I was 40 years old. I knew , even back then, that it had to be something that I wouldn't look back on when I was ...say...80 years old ...and think to myself : "Why the hell did I do that?" So, I will never regret my tattoo. Of course, mine ties in wirth a huge event/milestone of my life. So, out of all the tattooes people out there, I have to assume that many of them have gotten tattoos for the same reasons I did. They may have them for themselves and not for anyboy else. My tattoo is on my right shoulder and you cannot see it unless I either show you or if I happen to have my shirt off. So as far as cub scouts goes...if we go swimming, they could see it - assuming they are even looking at my back to begin with. But again, I do know what you mean. Too many people do things on impulse or because it s cool right now. They do it without thinking how stupid it will be 1, 2 , 3 or 20 years from now. Hey, I know a guy who got an 1/8th " dot tattooed on the top of his hands just before each knuckle back when he was 20 years old. They didn't mean anything, he just wanted a tattoo...anty tattoo, and this was the cheapest thing he could get! I do know some fellas who got tattoos while drunk. Yeah, I know most of those were regreted, but a few were really wanted and the beer finally gave them the courage to do it. So anyways, my point is this: When I look at other people and there tattoos, I do not ( always) just assume they all did something rash and stupid. I give them the benefit of doubt that they may have a really deep and thougtful reason/ meaning behind what they did. I mean, yeah.....some tattoos are obvious that people didn't think them through or give alot of thought, but some are for awesome, deep amd meaningful reasons. My tattoo - while not pplaced to be hidden, just happens to be hidden because it is right below where my cancer was. I got that tattoo for me and not for show or others to see. Not saying I will not let others see it or I won't show it......I am just saying I didn't get it for the purpose of trying to fit in or because others would like it or think I am more cool, or something like that. Kinda like scouters who take WB or have knots on their shirts: Some did it for or have earned it because of what they do/did for the program. Others do it for bling and showing off.

I'm not on the "Overthrow the govt" bandwagon. I'm an anarchist! Nah, just kidding. REally though, I was just wondering is we were due based only on comparison of other countries . Not pushing for ort against, just observing something that is out there

Way back...way, way back in high school. Back in 9th grade World History, my history teacher was takling about governemnt, rebellions, and the like. Although I cannot quote him exactly, he said something along the lines of: The US is unique in that - so far, it is the only country to have survived for 200 years with the same government. Most countries do not make it to 200 years before there is some sort of upheaval, rebellion, or civil war that changes the contry, the type of government, or who runs things. Usually, the government changes so much from it's original start - either through dictatorship, abuse of power, government interferance ( BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU), over regulation/ taxation , widening gap of economic policy/ laws... that people get tired of it and act6 on creating change. Not quite unlike the Revolutionary War. So, are we overdo? Do you see it happening any time soon? Would you fight for or against the status qou?

China is just 100 years behind us in the ways of capitolism. They are not completely a "government gets all" country. There are those in China who are enjoyinmg the $$ they are raking is. People are starting to prosper. They are becoming just like post WWII United States. But with all the global reach, internet sales and demands, and interdependant global economies, they are going to go through pretty much everything we did...just faster. They are already starting to pay a higher wage for higher skilled workers. The workers themselves are setting up to be the ones in control. Only a matter of time before they start organizing unions and labors groups. Before you know it, they will have priced themselves out of the work force and the company owners and buisness owners in China will be outsourcing to Mexico, Mongolia, Check republic or maybe even the US. Just a matter of time........

I've always told some of the youth and my own son : Never judge anybody by their looks, You could be completely wrong. At the same time, I have always said that I do not live myself to fit other people's predisposed ideals about how I should look or dress. If you judge me by looks alone, it's your loss. But at the same time...when it comes to work, I do know that people do judge me by appearance. If I look like a thug, potential customers will think I am a thug and will more likely find something - anything wrong with how I do my job. Again, that's actually their own issue and problem, but if it affects me financially.... So here's the deal with tatoos: They can be looked upon just like clothes or any other accessory. Some people wear clothes they just shouldn't - and sometimes they were clothes that are inaapropriate for the situation at hand. Don't wear a see through dress while not wearing a bra and a g string to church with thigh high boots. Don't wear 3 piece suit to swim in. Do not wear your " F*@K YOU! " anarchy shirt to your son's school play, but go ahead and wear it while laying on a creeper while servicing your trucks transmission. Tattos are the same way. Saw an awesome scout tattoo on the facebook page. I think my tattoo is in very good taste. Used to be a guy who worked with my company a long time ago , and he had the word "freak" with a set up bondage handcuffs tattooes underneath - on the side of his neck. Yeah, that one - while probably entirely accurate - should be hidden . Not tastefull in my opinion. But then that's the catch 22 isn't it? Who's opinion sets the standard and where exactly do you draw the line? I know quite a few former military ( note I did not say ex ) men who have either branch, date or place of service tattooed on their arms, chest, back, etc... Saigon, Iwo Jima Pelelue ( I think I spelled that right) tattooed on their arms. In those cases, it's not even close to being about tastefull or tacky, but is a chronicled part of their lives and who they are - just like a birth mark or last name. I have my tattoo symbolizing my battle and victory ( so far) with cancer. I also plan on getting another tattoo of an angel that will be about 2 1/2' tall to symbolize what my wife means to me ( my guardian angel who just happens to still be alive) . Maybe one day down the road, I might get another one after that, but I pretty sure I won't......right now, that is.

I think some of you are missing the point of the ban. It's not that you ( everybody involved in the discussion on this forum) but those other folks. You know the ones, right? The ones who will build a pyre stack that is 12 foot around and 15 foot tall made out of oak pallets and will pour 3 or 4 cans of lighter fluid on before lighting..while at the same time handing out fiberglass sticks ( the ones driveway reflectors come on) for roating marshmellows on. Yeah, I'm pretty sure most of us can make a home made stove that might even suit our individual needs better than manufactured stoves just in the fact we can customize them to our specific types of uses. But, it's not your average scouts or scouters who have experience that the ban is targeting. It's targeting ...gosh, should I even say it?....the redneck dads and uncles who spray those old cans of DDT that were found in the back of grandpa's shed...on the tomatoe plants because the stuff works fine. It targets the men who do not understand why you can't scratch your manhood, then reach into the 5 gallon Igloo water cooler to get that canned beer you hid in there, because it's 95 degrees - and nothing cools you off like a nice frosty beer. Simply put...the ban on alcohol stoves is not intended for people like yourselves who use things like common sense ans intelligence. The ban is intended for the ( to borrow from National Lampoon's Vacation) " Uncle Eddie's " who somehow find their way into scouting. And you know that the ban cannot be inhingant on an IQ test.

Well, I guess SR540Beaver said it a hell of alot better than I could, but that's what I meant: It doesn't matter who you are or what you (r dad) make(s) or where you live. It doesn't matter if you shop at Macy's or Bargin Barn. No matter what goes on elsewhere, when you are scouting, you are equal and on the same ground.

Lisabob, I disagree with you, but for a slightly different reason. Sure, those boys do know who has money and who doesn't, They know who lives in a single wide trailer and who lives in a 5 bedroom house with a detached 3 car garage and huge swimming pool in the back yard. But what the uniform does, ( pants too) is prove that while scouting, we all put our pants on the same way. I know that I am a male and you are female, so why use Mr and Ms or Mrs at the front of our names? The pants are not to trick or fool us. They are a reminder of the fact we are all part of an organazation in which we are equal. My uniform does not say I am richer or porrer than you. It does not say what kind of car I drive or if I have 3 different cars toi drive. IT just says that I am a scouter just like you and that's all!

First time I saw the battery funrasier ads, I thought: "This has to be the dumbest idea ever!" But when I look around at all the electronic stiff everywhere...It's actually a great idea. I betr my son has at least 16 different things in his room that require "AA" batteries alone. Then a few with "C" and maybe 2 that need "D"/ Almost every remote in the house used "AA" except the dvd player remore wich uses "AAA".

Standing ovation and a big ole nod from me. Funny thing isn't it? You know you did your job just right because you can step down. Congrats to you and great job!

Forgot to mention.... COR recognizes and presents me with a gold plated BSA keychain with my name and position inscribed in the back for turning things around and "getting the program right again so that the scouts enjoy it like it was meant to be" . I had no idea this was going to happen.

Yesterday was our pack's combined B&G and PWD day. Yeah, that may sound odd to most of you, but it really works wells for us. Anyways, I have to start out by starting with 2 weeks ago: WEEK ONE Saturday My mother in law was hospitalized after suffering from Pulminary Edima and cardiac arrest while 4 hours away from home. She ends up in a coma. This was Saturaday - 2 weeks ago. Tuesday I go 4 hours to hospiutal and see my wife for te first time since that Saturday morning. Later, we meet with neurologist who says that mother in law will be a lifetime vegetative state at best, but most likely will not survive long without life support. Lot of family meeting and discussions. We know what must be done as well as respecting my mother in laws wishes. But we do have time to work it out. I leave that night to come back home & take care of my son. Wednseday Around noon, my mom calls to tell me that one of my aunts died. About 11:30 pm, my mom calls me again and says: "I don't want you ton worry, but I just called EMS because my bp is 167 over 110 and mty bp monitor can't even get a reading on the pulse. " Now, since I had not only my son with me, but a nephew too - and all other family is 4 hours away at hospital - I cannot do anything but sit at home and wait by the phone. No sleep for me until 4 am when she calls to say she is home and doing fine - after they shocked her back into rythm. I think she actually enjoyed the ride and visit as she used to be a EMT / caregiver. Thursday An Uncle( in law) is taken to ER in real bad shape because of both poor health combined with added stress over Mother in law( HIS SISTER) WEEK TWO Saturday We finally get around to working on PWD car. I cut some, my son cuts some, then it's all up to him. He sands, paints, checks and mounts wheels. Sunday (It's been a week and 1 day since mother in law went to CICU. I go 4 hours back to hospital to say my goodbyes to my mother in law ( who mentally died the Saturday a week before) and to be with my wife. I am there as well as the rest of the family and a couple of my mother in law's sisters and brothers. My mother in law is taken off life support. My wife holds her moms hand for a little over 4 hours until she passes away, and then an additional 2 hours after that. It's 1:30 am by the time we get back to the family house the Chaplin arranged for us, and Monday around noon before we get back home. The next 3 days are kinda foggy as we were more on autopilot than anything else. Meetings with other kin fiolk, meetings with funeral homes, calling insurance company, meeting with people from cemetary, family visitation night... Thursday We have the funeral. Toughest day yet, but also a turning point and closure on what has happened up to that point. Today begins a new chapter of life for all of us. Friday I am going back to work for the first time the whole week and about halfway there when I realise that neither my son or myself ever weighed the car. The car, by the way, is an 80's style Porsche 911 and my son added wood to the sides so he could cut out wheel wells and carve ( cut out) a scale body style . Even had the whale tail rear spoiler on it. Friday after noon, I weigh car. 6.4 ounces. Son is with mom and in laws house, so I get out dremel tool and start taking chuncks of wood out of the bottom and weighing it, weighing it and weighing it again. Get it at 4.9. Do you know how much wood you have to remove from a PWD car to make it weigh 1 .5 ounces less? ALOT! WE shoot for 4.9 to allow for variances in scales. Then I manage to break the rear spolier off the car. Well....not so much break it off as break part of it off. Time to get glue out and fix it. You'd thought I was scared I was going to get in trouble or something. Kinda funny now, but thought I was going to cry at the time. Son gets home around 10 pm . Oh yeah, I forgot. I started sniffling and sneezing around noon on Friday. Head starts getting stuffy and headaches start too. Called one of my ACM's and turned over emcee duties. Saturday Time for B&G and PWD- I have a full blown cold. I am starting to seriously debate wether to just say screw it and tell my son that it just isn't meant to be. But I realize that this is the closest thing to normalacy for him after the previous 2 weeks, so I am determined to take him. On the way to the PWD check in, I apologize that we didn't have alot of time to work on his car and that I was sorry we had to rush things. My son won 1st place in his age division of 5th grade Webelos . He places 2nd overall in the pack. And will go to district to represent our pack for 2nd year Webelos As rough is it was for the previous two weeks, I am so glad we went. (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

mbscoutmom. So far, what I am reading from you is this: Your son should have done it like his brother did - which sounds like you wanted it done your way. Your son should have done it with you - because you wanted it that way. The SM and his wife should push your son to reconsile ( read apologize ) with you instead of causing the issue ( read latting son make his own decisions). Now, like everybody else said, there will not be a single answer hear that has any credibility because we are not personally involved with, know, or active with your son, the SM and his wife or you. BUT.... everything I have read gives me the gut feeling that you and your husband probably try to control everything about him. The boy ends up in Juvie, but make the decision himself to turn his life around. And make no mistake here....that is soley his decision - nobody can decide that for him. He has to act on that on his own, and it wil only work if he's committed to it....whih sounds like he is. Now, he goes to people outside of his parents , and get himself in a position to earn Eagle . WOW! I'm impressed with his determination and mindset. Not to mention his independance too. Sounds like scouting is really working with this young man just like it was intended too. Now about that scout law. Yeah..it's a little tough. Obedient? Well, how do you define that? Do as mom and dad say even if it's clearly wrong? If a parent( and I do not mean you) tells a child to steal something and the child refuses - did he break the scout law? If an abusive parent tells a scout to keep the abuse a secret - did he break the scout law by not being obedient when he tells? No! Not hardly! But since we are speaking about the scout law.... It does apply to scouters as well. Telling everybody about your sons stints in juvie and how he's just the worst liar, how he has a vendetta against you and then insinuating that it's all the SM and his wife's fault ....on this site? Well, That pretty much falls outsie of following the scout law too. So, it seems council investigated you, and still stuck with their decision. THat isn't a coin flip kind of decision. There is alot of thought that goes into that sort of thing, and the fact that it comes from within the family really does increase the care in which it is handled. My opinoon of this: You are on a damage control mission in which you are trying to move blame to somebody else and deny any responcibility to maintain your "social appearance" . I may be completely wrong, and will be glad if I am, but I don't feel it.

Okay, that makes sense. Barry, You can add wood to the front or rear just as easy as you add it to the sides or top: glue, nail, screw, etc... My son's last car was a 72 Mustang fastback. We added wood to the sides ( to the max width of 2 3/4 ) and cut out fender wells for the wheels. The body was cut as close tio scale replica as possible including length, then bumpers were added back to the front since they were easier for my son to make as seperate pieces than carving from original block. But some scout's designs have tail pipes, hooks ( was a tow truck..I think) boat with bow mast or whatever it is called Bulldozer with front blade...

When we do check in for PWD, we of course use a scale, but we also have two boxes . WE use the boxes to check for width and length and bottom clearance. Used to be that we'd close the lid too to make sure the cars were not too tall, but that was due to a previous timing gate that really did have a limited height to it. Pretty much now, you can have a car that is about 5 inches tall...not that you'd want to - that is....but you could. Now, the rules we follow ( based on district rules are as such: 1) Car must not be over 5 ounces 2) Car cannot be over 2 3/4 maw width overall. 3) Must be at least 1 3/4 between wheels in width 4) Axle grooves must be same distance as what they came from box - if you move one, you must move the other the same distance in relationship to each otrher. 5) Car cannot be over 7 inches long 6) Only graphite lube on car 8) Tires can be de burred, but must stay flat and same width as originaly packaged 9) All parts must be offical BSA parts But I've been thinking about the length of the cr having to be 7 inches max. Why? I mean, I don't care that it's 7 inches max, and I do not have a problem with it....just wondering why? I mean, if all cars start equally at the front edge by using a pin starting gate, then the front edge of all cars crossing the finish line will still be reflected by how fast the car ran, and not that it was longer. Based on all cars starting equally in the front, the only thing you have done is added more length to the back of the car. From a logistics point of view, the longer a car is - and assuming you maintain axle distance - the more unstable it will be and the ability to track straight diminishes. Again, I have no issue with a car haviong a max lentgh of 7 inches...just wondering why.

This should be page 3 of the BSA book: G2RS Guide to Realworld Scouting

You saying I was weigh out of line?

WEll, we tell everybody that :"Tis is the official scale. We do not care if you weighed your car at NASA before the race...this IS the offical scale. Period. " And every now and then a parent will say our scale might be +/- "X" number of grams, etc... WE say : "OKay, but it's off that much for EVERYBODY ! Everybody still gets judged on the same scale of scale! WE bring our scale out at both PWD workshops and at the track test run day that we have a week before PWD. WE also tell everybody to stay off the table. Do not lean against, bump or touch the scale table. And I don't know about anybody else's scale, but I can just breath on ours and watch it change by at least 2.2 ounces.

You will probably get alot of different interpretations on this, so here goes my $.02 worth. A crossoveer ceremony is just that: crossing over to the next thing. A graduation ceremony is also just that: graduating Every year, my pack holds a graduation ceremony for all the cub scouts who are going up to the next rank - but they are not crossing up, crossing over, crossing their hearts, crossing their 'T's" , etc... So, this scout should get his carreer arrow at a graduation ceremony with the rest of the pack if you do such a thing, or at the very least, get recognized at the last pack meeting before everybody else graduats or the other 2nd year Webelos cross over . Honestly, without meaning to be rude...what the former den leader things means nothing. You know that saying about opinions , right? They are like butt holes- Everybody has them and some smell worse than others! Do what you and the scout and his family are most comfortable with. You do not owe any explanation to any former leaders.