RememberSchiff

Another cave rescue.

Lots of preparation and excitement was put into this Boy Scout Troop's big snow camping trip in the caves near Idaho Falls and then early this Sat Feb 24 morning around 2:40 a.m. everything went wrong.

The reports to Idaho Falls Fire Department  and  Bonneville County Sheriff's Office said that there was smoke, lots of smoke coming from inside the 17 Mile Cave  where 13 Boy Scouts and five leaders were camping.

Upon the first engine’s arrival, Boy Scouts and leaders were evacuating the cave. Three additional ambulances were requested. An additional engine, a battalion chief and the Bonneville County Sheriff’s Office arrived on scene.

Crews entered the cave and began a search. Additional ambulances and engines arrived on scene to triage people and search the cave.

A total of 13 Boy Scouts and 5 leaders were evacuated. Four additional people were in the cave, two of which reportedly fled the scene.

Some individuals suffered minor smoke inhalation, but no civilians or firefighters were injured. There were no ambulance transports to the hospital.

https://idahostatejournal.com/news/local/boy-scouts-evacuated-from-east-idaho-cave/article_21e99121-d078-5187-9e2c-9fba6e57049d.html

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2018/02/boy-scouts-leaders-evacuated-17-mile-cave-following-fire/

How does your Cubmaster feel about this?

If  I was Cubmaster, I would jump at the opportunity.

Glad you did not feel bullied.

As to getting wrapped on the knuckles,  what are you referring to?  I found no warnings issued to you.

I only found a misunderstanding as to why a thread was locked which had nothing to do with you as Sentinel947 explained to you and you acknowledged "Fair enough, thanks".

Thanks for the feedback.  -RS

@NJCubScouter , @LeCastor

2 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

I swear.  Thanks for deleting a perfectly civil and respectable comment.

When a member states that he/she wants withdraw from a discussion as @HelpfulTracks so stated, his/her request will be respected. Bullying a member to continue a discussion will not be tolerated.

This forum is to provide information, express opinions, and discuss Scouting and related issues according to Scout Oath and Law.

@NJCubScouter , @LeCastor

Okay then, @HelpfulTracks @Col. Flagg let's keep it courteous and just agree to disagree. Thanks.

@NJCubScouter , @LeCastor

14 minutes ago, David CO said:

If that is the case, then we need to arm teachers. You can't expect people to rely on the police for their protection if the police are going to stay outside the building and wait for shooter to run out of ammunition.

Compare to the quick, heroic reaction of the Capitol Police detail at that GOP baseball practice where Congressman Scalise was shot.

18 minutes ago, blw2 said:

ok, well let's back this whole thought up a bit.... if one is to think that this problem we have changes somehow because of technology....weaponry is more advanced than it was before.... 

why did we not start seeing these mass shootings long ago?

  these things in their more or less current state of design have been around a very long time....the AR-15 variants currently in the news have been available since when, the 1970's maybe?

and going back even further.... an M-1 rifle as an example was state of the art for it's time....military grade, built for killing, capable of rapid fire, and available in mind boggling quantities at cheap prices since the mid 1940's or so....

ditto the Sprigfield rifle and similar, before that.  Again in their day they were state of the art.... and at some point became readily available.  But we didn't have crazy folks using them so much like we do today.

So, how is it that the technology has somehow caused this to start happening now?

My guess.... it's lots of things, many layers....but it's not the technology.

1966, Texas Tower shooting by Eagle Scout, former Marine sharpshooter Joseph Whitman. Killed 14, injured 31 others.  Autopsy revealed brain tumor. 

IMO, there are more people among us in need of help/supervision/medical than ever before.

2 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Most people focus either on a well regulated Militia or the right to bear arms not being infringed.  What most people don;t think about is "being necessary to the security of a free State".  This clause gives the reason why the second amendment even exists.  It doesn't exist so that people can use guns to hunt.  It doesn't exist so that people can have guns for self defense.  (Though those are secondary benefits which are still important - they're just not the primary reasons).

It exists so that people will be armed to come to the defense of their state and country.  The constitution presumes that the United States and the States within are free states.  It does not presume that the United States and the States are totalitarian dictatorships.  It certainly does not presume that when people have disagreements with their government that they can take up arms against that government (example - the Whisky Rebellion - President George Washington himself didn't hesitate to send the militia in to suppress and subdue armed and violent citizens that were threatening (and more) duly sworn representatives of the government there to make sure that a federal tax on domestic whisky was collected).

At the time the second amendment was created, the founding fathers were wary of having a standing professional army.  They had just seen how "ordinary citizens" (mostly - they did have help from "professional" soldiers) had defeated the most powerful army on earth at the time.  They knew that an armed citizenry was a powerful force that could be called upon to defend their government(s) from OUTSIDE forces.  They did not expect that people would need to defend themselves from their own government.  Yes, yes - we've all read the whole at times the tree of liberty needs to be refreshed by the blood of tyrants stuff but that was very much a political statement aimed at one particular tyrant.

Your right to keep and bear arms is meant to have an armed citizenry ready to come to the defense of the government (the State).  We've allowed the creation of a professional military to defend us.  In doing so, we have allowed ourselves to believe that we can leave the defense of our country to others while we go on with our lives.  This has allowed folks to twist the meaning of the second amendment to one of being able to defend themselves against their own government, and get away with it.  Those folks are deluding themselves in these modern times.  When you have a government with a standing army that can manipulate a silent drone from a thousand miles away to drop an explosive device on your home, there is no effective gun defense against your own government.

ps - yes, the Illinois Militia had 2 pound grasshopper guns (cannon).  Like every other state, the Governor/Legislature could call forth citizenry to form temporary militias - these were the armies of a state, the militia members were paid for their service while they were part of the militia, by the state.  While many members of the militia brought their own rifles, the state also had their own armories that they could outfit their militia from.  If a militia unit had 2 pound cannon with them, they were provided by the state armory - not brought by some random guy who happened to own a 2 pound cannon and just happened to be in the area that the state was recruiting people for militia service.

Abraham Lincoln was a member of two different militia units.  He served as elected captain (elected by the members of his militia unit) for 30 days, then when that militia units term expired (after 30 days), re-enlisted and served as a private.  His militia units were formed for one purpose only, to chase down the Sauk Indians refusing to give up their land that they felt was ceded to the US by people not authorized to do so.  We know it better as the Blackhawk War.  

Colonial (local) militias of "ordinary citizens" were meant for the common defense. The tyrant , a foreign king or corrupt government or Indians or ...was not specified.

"When you have a government with a standing army that can manipulate a silent drone from a thousand miles away to drop an explosive device on your home, there is no effective gun defense against your own government."  Please tell that to the Taliban in Afghanistan so they will give up fighting after 16+ years. Their strategy is not new. Fight a guerilla war, win the PR war,  drag on the conflict,..  Our last Civil War had a higher American casualty total than any other war or conflict including WW2.

My $0.02

2 hours ago, Urbanredneck said:

If any of you are curious, my idea for a new merit badge was : Paracord

You see I figure the scouts already do something similar, leathercraft, pottery, and basketry. All of which take a basic product like leather, clay, and grass, and use it for different things. Paracord is a very useful product not just in making bracelets but also helpful objects like tent fobs, tent lines, using paracord for repairs, using paracord as fire starter, use as emergency fishing line, axe handle wrap, makes a good shoelace for your boots and such. Here is a website with ideas.

I like it. Great website. Paracord is the duct tape of the outdoorsman, but astronauts use it too.

A requirement suggestion:

Where did paracord originate and for what purpose? What are the types of paracord sold and why is Mil-spec 550 the most preferred?

@David CO , @skeptic  hopefully my edit to skeptic's post will suffice. 

Just now, skeptic said:

Ahhh.  This is what I see being pretty much ignored in most conversations.  Does not "well-regulated mean that controls of some form, such as laws and such, are part of the right noted?

I would add the context of 2nd Amendment is ignored well as can read in the Declaration of Independence.

Let's keep this a courteous discussion where different opinions are expressed and not a argument that some one has to win.  Thanks.

@NJCubScouter  @LeCastor

11 minutes ago, gblotter said:

I was motivated by the Scout slogan.

He was not offended in any way to receive my phone call - it's just that he is apparently not the sentimental type when it comes to Boy Scout patches.

Glad to hear he was not offended.

In personal matters, MYOB has worked well for me.

On May 6, 2013 Adobe announced that CS6 would be the last version of the Creative Suite,^[2][3][4] and that future versions of their creative software would only be available via their Adobe Creative Cloud subscription model. Adobe also announced that it would continue to support CS6 and would provide bug fixes and security updates through the next major upgrades of both Mac and Windows operating systems (as of 2013).^[5] The Creative Suite packages were pulled from Adobe's online store in 2013,^[6] but were still available on their website until January 2017.^[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Creative_Suite

https://www.dpreview.com/news/3633651596/adobe-cs6-has-been-officially-retired

But who knows maybe Adobe changed their mind or renamed new product after old. Who cares?

7 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

I guess I would ask another question, assuming your fancy new duds, tracked the right kind of data, and they were able to transmit that data, what would be the trigger for emergency response or SAR? I mean, did my heart rate tracking stop because a tree fell on my head or because my base layer malfunctioned?

All this tech is cool, but there are still major limitations.

Depends on the hiker's medical history and preferences, the selected monitoring system and its response protocol.

It could be a alarm to the hiker and to a monitoring station with a callback similar to a home security system and likely notification of other networked hiking members near you.  Or it could be self-monitoring with an alarm call list. Or something else.

I agree the tech is remarkable. There are even non-invasive diabetes sensors now. I am skeptical of the sensors being in clothing or boots, I think arm/ankle bands would be more workable.

Just now, Eagledad said:

It’s more, but I don’t like showing my cards. 

Barry

Oh, I thought you ran out of fingers and toes.

"Organization" refers to beneficiary not unit, as apparent in the previous paragraphs.  An Eagle project does not require scouts be workers. The Eagle candidate, as demonstration of his leadership, recruits workers not his unit.

My $0.02

2 hours ago, ianwilkins said:

Actually, I don't, up to a point. I know, all those guns would happily sit in a drawer or cupboard and not do any harm to anyone. And yes, it's way more complicated that that, sadly.

 

I feel the same about dangerous people. Come election time, we often hear that the US has more incarcerated/institutionalized than any other nation, perhaps too many of certain "classifications" and not enough of other "classifications".

3 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Well, how about that.  Yet another change snuck in by National without adequately informing we who toil in the fields.

Not only was I wrong, but the three people who green-arrowed my post were wrong as well. 

I always thought that the Eagle candidate was supposed to be in charge of his (or her) own project.  I guess not.  I agree with the idea that projects should follow YP guidelines, but beyond that it kinds of takes away from the idea that the Scout is in charge of the project.

Mea culpa.

What happens if there are no scouts helping with the Eagle project?

14 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Position: Associate Organizational and Leadership Development 
Compensation: Exempt Level position
Department: Human Resources
Position location: Irving, TX 75038

...

How to apply: 
Qualified candidates must email a resume and cover letter to: Resume.Exempt@Scouting.org . The subject line of the email should state Associate Organizational & Leadership Dev. . (Internal applicants should also include the word Internal in the subject line.)

Well they requested a resume and April 1 is approaching.

4 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

Cubmaster is a big task! Thanks for getting involved into scouting right away with your son! 

Theres plenty of information on this forum that can help you!

Quite right, we have a sub-forum on Cub Scouts

https://www.scouter.com/forum/25-cub-scouts/

Here are some past topics which may interest you, in addition to advice from past and present Cub leaders who will join in.

@KC4KEV welcome to scouter.com

Some followup, updated

The 15 year old Boy Scout was alert and not injured. (Wind Cave is also locally called Cold Cave as it is nearly freezing temperatures all year round - RS)

The teen was part of a group scouts and adults from Elizabethtown accompanied by a cave guide. The group of 16 was about 350 feet into the Wind cave south of Pequea when the youth slipped while crawling through a passage and became wedged by a large jutting rock around 3:30 p.m

The cave one of the largest "tectonic (fault) caves in the eastern U.S. Tectonic caves are formed when masses of bedrock are pulled apart along joints or fissures.

This was not the group’s first time in the cave, officials said.

Group members tried to free the youth for two hours, but that caused pain in the boy’s back and hip. (?? Unclear when 9-1-1 call made. RS)

Rescuers, arriving in the dark, chiseled away at the rock and used rope pulleys and a harness to free the boy. Warming pads were used to keep the trapped youth warm in the cold air.

More than 60 personnel were involved in the 7 hour extraction effort. About two dozen fire apparatus and other emergency vehicles were parked along Bridge Valley Road and at the Pequea boat launch.

The effort was complicated by the winter weather and the length rescuers had to travel through mud and snow. Even in good weather, it takes around 20 minutes to travel from Bridge Valley Road to the cave entrance. It took about 45 minutes to transport the boy to the cave entrance after he was extricated.

It took about 45 minutes to transport the boy to the cave entrance after he was extricated.  This was 5th rescue in Wind Cave since 1993.

Spokesman Tony Williams of Rawlinsville Fire Co.

Popular short hike: Wind Cave Trail

https://www.alltrails.com/trail/us/pennsylvania/wind-cave-trail

Wind/Cold Cave information/directions. Has picture of a local scout troop.

http://www.visitlancasterpa.net/Lancaster-County/Things-To-Do/Trails-And-Vistas/Wind-Cave-Aka-Cold-Cave/

Rescue news report:

http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/teen-boy-rescued-from-wind-caves-in-martic-township/article_a9867b78-143d-11e8-84d7-bf48f68d95eb.html

Cave map and more background.

http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/cave-rescue-in-southern-lancaster-county-was-th-since/article_7c370470-14ed-11e8-8ccb-7f7505dd40c0.html

http://fox43.com/2018/02/18/how-emergency-crews-rescued-a-14-year-old-boy-from-a-cave-in-lancaster-county/

Been almost a year since the Merit Badge Calendar has been updated.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/merit-badge-calendar/