RememberSchiff

"This is a Catholic Cub Scout pack/den, so something religion-based would be fine."

You mean like exorcism? Unfortunately Sister Anita wielding a ruler would not be allowed ... but I seem to remember it working on me.

Yes, we expect good scout behavior from all scouts, without exception. The "reward" is the privilege of being a scout. The traffic light is too lenient for this group, I would make it harder. First infraction, timeout on bench. Next call parents for pickup.

You need some reinforcements - no nonsense non-den adults. Before your next meeting, have meeting with Cubmaster and Pack Committee. Invite, no subpoena, your Cubmaster, Committee members and maybe your former den chief's (your older son's) Scoutmaster to attend your next den meeting to talk about the Scout Oath and following the rules. That Scoutmaster should be interested as to why your son dropped a leadership position.

With that help. Develop a new strategy to get your scouts back in the program. That new strategy might include

- more adult leaders present.

- remove ringleaders

- restrictions to Pack activities, e.g. cannot attend picnic unless they "green lighted" at past 4 den meetings.

- splitting den

- shorter meetings

- adding more den chiefs

- require uniform inspections as a discipline tool

- more sports, they are a high activity bunch

- develop a Pack Code of Conduct. Punching another scout means

the scout leaves activity. He and his parents has a talk with Cubmaster and CC before he is allowed, if at all, back in the den.

(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)

I am interested in a pointer to any official blanket-waiver info. If it is BSA policy, I would like the waiver to be prominently displayed on the bsalicensing.org homepage and in the FAQ.

My local shop informed me about the problem. He had read an article about non-profit trademarks in a trade publication. It was mostly about the Red Cross but mentioned BSA, etc. Neither I nor my Council was aware of the issue.

Glad to see your "farewell" was shorter than Sinatra's..."I did it MY WAAAAY...." Welcome back.

Some questions

1. What are your den rules? You and your scouts should have developed a rules list. These rules should be prominently displayed in LARGE BOLD FONT during the den meeting.

2. When a scout is not following a rule, does den activity stop? If too much time is wasted do they miss out on the game activity?

3. Do you use a timer (some use a lighted candle, some an hourglass) to measure duration of good behavior and then say if we go 5 or 10 minutes more the next time, then we will have some reward?

4. What help do you have? Parents, den chief, denner.

The license fee is passed on to his customers, so Troop XXX would have paid the $250 + $100 job cost for a total of $350. Still less than the "licensed" shop, but why should we pay the BSA for the "privilege" of embroidering BSA on our BSA Troop XXX camp shirts?

Your trademark is your corporate identity, your "good name"; you register a trademark to protect your "good name" so that others cannot malign it or profit from it. You then may or may not choose to license it use to third parties. Here, the BSA is protecting it's trademark from itself (Troop XXX). Troop XXX is using the trademark, not the local shirt shop.

Well doesn't matter now, I do not use any BSA trademarks, so the BSA is SOL.

Warning, I plan to trademark "SOL" also...

Here is another example of too much HASSLE in Scouting, a.k.a., Scouting Trademark Protection Gone Wild. It's all about $$$.

I wanted a local shop, that I have done business for years, to embroider a dozen camp t-shirts (Made in USA) for my scouts. I supplied the shirts and the added embroidery came to just under $100. So a small order, no setup charge, and he allows me to supply the shirts, gotta love this shop. The words were simply

Troop XXX BSA

Camp YYYY

But the shop was not licensed by the BSA (cost $250) and a "licensed" shop would not embroider any shirts that I supplied! However at the "licensed" shop, I could buy their (offshore) shirts + minimum order of 24 shirts + embroidery for a cost of $26/shirt. What a deal! A scout is thrifty, so I dropped the "BSA" over the BS.

My guys had economical Made in USA t-shirts with words

Troop XXX USA

Camp YYYY

Any patches that I design for the troop now have no BSA trademark. Our new Class B's will be silk screeened locally and will not have any BSA trademarks on them.

I can understand the BSA wanting a percentage on commercial products using the BSA trademarks; I cannot understand why they want to hassle units making patches and shirts for their own use. We certainly do not make any money.

Interested in reading Scouting Trademark Protection Gone Wild?

http://www.bsalicensing.org/council_faq.htm

Warning, I plan to trademark "BS". So that any use of "BS" will require a license from me. I expect to get rich off of "BS". You thought I was going for the "Gone Wild"?

evmori,

Long ago, as a scout, my SM gave me a counselor list and told me to pick three and see who was available. He did want me to call all three BTW. As far as my SM was concerned, all mb counselors were equal so the choice was mine.

Today. It does seem the SM chooses the mb counselor up front but the SM also signs the mb cards for summer camp and Merit Badge colleges, not knowing who the counselor will be. I too have been looking for a policy statement just out of curiousity.

I used the American Red Cross BAT (Basic Aid Training for Grades 2-6) for my Bears/Web I. Each student gets a workbook with first aid instruction, games, things to color. You might be able to finagle a Red Cross instructor, local fireman, or EMT to help you. Hope this helps.

I am interested in feedback from units that self-charter. In particular, info and comments about the following:

unit type

your reasons for self-chartering

how long have you been self-chartered

changes in your scout program and membership

size and membership of your unit committee

your council's assistance

relationship with sponsor

advantages/disadvantages

...whatever useful information that you could share would be appreciated.

Thanks

Well there's the BSA MB policy and then there is our Council/District policy (real world) on advancement. Here the Council has said the Scoutmaster is in charge of advancement. He may go along with the loosy-goosy BSA MB policy or enforce his own more restrictive policy - his/her call. I am familiar with 3 troops

Troop A: Parents cannot be mb counselors for their sons. Scoutmaster selects mb counselor for scout, sometimes he will not sign card for certain summer camp merit badges - "You do that badge with us". All Eagle-required mb's done within troop.

Troop B: Parents can be a mb counselor for no more than 2 mb's for their son. Scoutmaster allows scouts to select mb counselor from list but checks parent restriction before signing card.

Troop C: Parents cannot be mb counselors for Eagle-required mb's for their son.

I have not seen troop advancement policies restrict other relatives - grandparents, uncles,... There's some wheelin and dealin among parents - "Sign up as an X merit badge counselor with me. You take my son and I will take yours."

Make a rule and someone will find a loophole.

My point is that the BSA-Charter Organization model is not working. It needs to be reconsidered.

I am proud to be with this Charter Organization and I think their concerns and perspective are well considered. Our scout program is quite excellent, but the CO has little if anything to do with that other than providing a meeting place. Our CO suggested moving to a simpler "sponsor" model like Little League (his analogy) as an improvement. Their statements I quoted are feedback from our CO.

Now if you want an example of a Character Org that I want nothing to do with, consider this visit last March that my Webelos son and I had to Troop X which met at a local hall complete with a overstocked bar in the meeting area. The District Commish and Scoutmaster greeted us at the Gathering. The Scoutmaster yelled out, "Alright, line up". Scouts threw their Scout handbooks on the bar. The DC winked at me and said "Great troop. Earned the Quality Unit Award again this year!" The SM then proceeded "Scout salute..." My son and I left after the opening. I spoke to that council and I was the only one who had a problem. My son and I joined another troop in another council despite the long drive.

Long ago, when I was scout, my council had a policy that NO organizations that served or sold alcohol could be charter organizations. No exceptions. Maybe it was just the time or my council, anyway years later I was very upset to see scout handbooks on a bar. Still bothers me.

This is a good example of too much HASSLE in the program. Look at your data, if 25% willingly (grudgingly) come why is that? We should be grateful for the free meeting space and drop the attitude "what's one more meeting" with our volunteers and benefactors.

In our unit, we currently ask our CO to attend 10 Troop Committee meetings + 1 Saturday Recharter + 1 ECOH + various troop meetings +... Not surprisingly, our CO, a good guy, is feeling stressed. He showed us a folder with about two dozen worthy groups (most are local, non-franchised youth groups) who made a request this past August for meeting space. Not one of these groups asked that the church "sign" a contract, "micromanage" their group, "police" any program, "select" any leaders, or even attend any meetings though the welcome to the church was there. He asked, "Isn't a free meeting place with storage enough support? Why can't your troop and district manage themselves, afterall I see the troop earned the Quality Award again?"

The BSA-Character Organization model needs a reality check. I worry if the Charter contract is made more demanding, my unit might disappear.

Less HASSLE please. KISKIF for all.

SMORES. Actually smores are considered a requirement by Cub Scouts.

Launching bottle rockets is cool too.

I would wager that T164Scouter has forgotten more about scouting than the WB21 staff knows and that T164Scouter has not forgotten much.

Belayer_StLouis is correct. I did some research

http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html

http://www.flagsbay.com/flag/brief-history-of-the-united-states-flag-code/

The statute numbering seems to have changed some but here is the summary

Congress passed Public Law 77-826; chapter 806 the U.S. Flag in Dec 22, 1942. It has be amended three times since. In 1976, Section 176 which deals with Respect to Flag, part (j) was amended.

"However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart."

So prior to 1976, the US flag could not have been worn on a scout uniform.

Why did this change? Not sure - draw attention to bicentennial year, U.S. astronaut spacesuits had a U.S. flag, raise spirits after Vietnam, Watergate, Gas Shortage, ??? Now why the flag patch is not placed on the left sleeve so as to be closer to the heart, I do not know either.

Xyzzy

Sounds like you are teaching your son to be leader. If we didn't question the rules, we would all still be doing the Bellamy salute for the Pledge of Allegiance. Oh, thank you service and the comfort that you gave to our servicemen and their families, that's a hard detail. You had some other points/questions, good ones:

1. Wearing the flag is disrespectful. I agree, what a flood gate that change opened. I wonder if one wears a scout uniform at night, does one shine a light on one's right sleeve?

2. Maybe family, God, country?

3. How many countries wear their flag? I suggest we send you to the next World Jamboree in Sweden and report back. I do know that Australia wears a flag patch not on their sleeve but next to the purple World Brotherhood patch above the left pocket (close to heart). I think France does not wear a flag patch but a country symbol patch. Sorry not much help on that one.

4. Why did BSA change?

5. An uncluttered uniform - you would have liked the 50's and 60's, well at least the uniform we wore back then. Our uniform was even "green" and isn't that a good thing these days.

We repeat the Pledge and Scout Oath/Law ad infinitum but marriage vows once. Repetition is a teaching device, maybe it will improve the chances that they think about the words. I ask my scouts to say the words slowly in the hopes that they will consider the words. Maybe.

Teaching your son to ask questions is good, teaching him to find answers is better.

"That is not "blindly going along" with something. That is following the rules of the organization you belong to." Was that line from Dr. Strangelove?

My two cents

"Could a patrol forget to showup with food on your campouts?"

So far no patrol has forgotten their food or water, now tent poles, stove fuel, grills, and lanterns are often forgotten - time to improvise. We ask our SPL have patrols completed their checklists (this task is on his checklist). If yes, off we go. After the campout, we debrief and often ask "Was that on your checklist?" "Did you use checklists"...fun

Helicopter ASM's? Hmmm, when there is a safety issue I guess you can say we are hovering above.

I don't mean to infer that our approach is perfect, but a small group 2-4 adults (at most one adult newby) on scout outings works better for our unit. Even experienced adults learn new things on outings, so the notion of "training adults" seems odd to me. Our focus is on the scouts, but we all learn from each other.

My unit is fortunate to have a group of competent, experienced ASMs. Some trained at US Armed Forces, AMC, NOLS, Outward Bound, BSA... but more importantly, they have allot of "field" experience. Also, being a diverse group, our scouts learn different camping styles taught by different adults. We have never cancelled an outing for lack of adults.

When an activity is planned, it is designated a scout outing or family outing. For example, the first campout for new scouts and an overnighter on the USS New Jersey would be family outings. On family outings, adults form cooking groups or not.

So for a scout outing, when the permission slips are returned, we look at the headcount and the activity plan (from PLC) a set the number of ASM's needed. So for the usual campout with 20 scouts, that number would usually be 3 or 4. Additional adults are discouraged, too much of a distraction. We want just the minimum, necessary adult oversight; scouts need to feel that they are in charge.

Before campout, ASM's approve patrol food menus. So no poptarts or Captain Crunch. Each meal has more than one entree. SPL checks menu, but ASM's sanity check for food allergies and other diet restrictions at that time. Before heading-out, we verify that patrols kept to plan and safely packaged food for campout.

On these outings, our #1 job as always is safety. Scout-run, but ASM's are the last line of defense that things were done safely. Scout parents have entrusted us with their sons. We cannot be distracted by helicopter parents, a dad who decided to bring a compound bow, a mom with 4 dozen cupcakes, adults who want to "vacation",...

We ASM's check that scouts are properly dressed and check for exposure. We watch that fire, stoves and axes are safely handled, prevent rough-housing, counsel scouts feeling homesick, make sure meds are taken. And more... We intervene to correct problems as needed, usually by just talking with SPL or,if urgent, directly. We are also there to further instruct and sign off requirements.

We are not cooking meals, we are listening as Tenderfoot Charlie Brown explains how he is cooking his patrol dinner where we are gueste. Maybe some entrees are overcooked, but this is scouting. If the PL and SPL forget, we make sure to remind them that scouts wash their hands, say grace, that everyone eats, and oversee cleanup.

Falling asleep when I return home is not a problem.

Our ASM's are not a "patrol", we are ASM's. We carry different gear than patrols. We carry the emergency gear - radios, cellphone, extensive first aid kit with med forms and scout meds, extra water,socks, gloves. We carry a personal stove and survival gear but not another patrol cook kit.

On a campout,I will make my own coffee. Experience has taught me that wisdom.

Good question. I believe it is OPTIONAL for the reasons you state but I cannot find any official documentation for you. I doubt that the uniform inspection sheets will reflect this, but I always make my own inspection sheet.

My scout uniform from the 60's just had a patrol medallion on right sleeve and my fine Boy Scout Handbook from that time has a Norman Rockwell scout on cover in proper uniform with no U.S. flag emblem (no silly shoulder flaps either). Frankly, I cannot recall that a U.S. flag emblem was an add-on option, as it would have been considered disrespectful to "wear" the flag as clothing back then. The "BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA" strip above the right pocket identified your country. So if it is a "tradition", it started later, maybe in the 70's and the U.S. flag code was amended.

I have a corollary that I have found very annoying. Parents rarely, if ever, read e-mail or website updates done days in advance of my den or troop meeting. So I could expect this interruption:

Parent: "I didn't have time to read you e-mail. {CAN YOU STOP IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR SCOUT MEETING AND} Tell me what you wrote."

Me: Sorry, no. { I have more important things to do }

See things from the boy's point of view. BP

The scout who did not earn his AOL, sees his patrol leaving for Boy Scouts without him just because he did not earn a patch. Rejection is pretty tough at that age. Think of the boy, change the rules, and let him enter a Boy Scout troop together at the same time with his buddies.

From my Webelos Den Leader experience, this "tough love" policy has always been applied in my unit and always with the same result. Webs that did not earn their AOL and did not crossover at the same time, did not join Boy Scouts. Not one.

This is an opportunity to show that there are many paths to Scouting and that you can join at anytime. Also, advancement is just one method to achieve the aims of Scouting. (The "aims" are character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. Advancement is just one method used to achieve these aims. The other methods are Ideals, Patrols (a.k.a patrol method), Outdoor Programs, Personal Growth, Leadership Development, and Uniform)

At the crossover ceremony, I would recognize the non-AOL scout's accomplishments, respect his decision, and let him know he can join scouting anytime. They are all making a next step in their life, they are just going in different directions.

Maybe say something like

We honor the accomplishments that you have made on journey along the Cub Scout trail and we ask that you too look back and remember those accomplishments and your many friends as well. Now you have reached the end of the Cub Scout trail, where two new trails begin. Some of you will now take the trail (bridge) to Boy Scouts and some will take another trail. These trails will cross again and again. You can crossover to the scouting trail at any time, at any age. See you on the trail.

Those who earned AOL, "crossover" to meet Scouts/Scout Leaders of the troop they will be joining. Now if the Non-AOL scout wishes to join Boy Scouts let him walk a different symbolic trail over to the Boy Scouts. If he does not, he justs remains seated and watches as his friends head down the scouting trail.

Talk to the Scoutmaster and see if he can attend their meetings until he can "officially" join at 11 or graduates 5th grade in 4 or 5 months. Hopefully, this troop is now making plans for summer camp. I think he will lose interest in scouting, if he is "held back" in Cub Scouts. Would you place him in a Web I den?

All new Boy Scouts have to complete the "Scout Badge" which is mostly a repeat of AOL requirements anyway. He will have to work a little harder to complete Scout Badge than his fellow scouts who earned their AOL and hopefully that will make an impression.

Good Scouting

My son's troop chose a baseball cap over a neckerchief for their class A. I asked how can a baseball cap be used to make an arm sling or cravat or signal flag or hankerchief (what's that?)...well you get the idea. Baseball caps are cool and cool wins over all.

Now, my old BSA neckerchief dates back to when usefulness was more important. Usefulness was cool then. It is a large square (approx 30" x 30", it was probably larger when new), single color with BSA logo. You folded along diagonal and rolled then draped OVER the collar to protect your neck from sunburn, etc. This was worn or carried on all scout activities except COH when the dress neckerchief was worn.

I wore my old neckerchief for awhile and showed its usefulness to new scouts, but it wasn't a baseball cap. Maybe just as well, the current, so-called BSA neckerchiefs are just expensive, dandy fashion accessories in my opinion.

No neckerchief, no need to whittle a slide (woggle), and no interest in Woodcarving mb. Baseball caps. Maybe if the Red Sox were and wore Red Neckerchiefs?

Good question. Here's a quick answer - Read and Practice.

1. Borrow or buy the Boy Scout Handbook and read Second Class Scout requirement 2c.(page 77-79 of the edition I have). Better yet, buy the Wood Carving Merit Badge.

2. Ask advice and questions of local scout leaders "Say could you show me how to do this?", "How should I teach...", "Could you recommend..." Be prepared for different opinions on knives, sharpening, wood. There may be a training class at Roundtable or University of Scouting. A woodcarver or Woodcarving Merit Badge counselor, and maybe your den chief or another Boy Scout are possible resources.

3. Buy or borrow a basic, lightweight pocket knife which fits in your hand and has a short whittling blade (smaller than the main cutting blade). No bulkly, ten-tools in one knife.

4. Count your fingers before you start and have a box of Band-aids handy.

5. Follow safety rules, particularly the safety circle. Test knife for sharpness - does it slice (sharp) or tear (dull) paper? If dull, sharpen. Never test knife or chisel sharpness with any part of you!

6. PRACTICE whittling a simple neckerchief slide or whatever you want to carve. Small cuts away from you. Take your time.

7. When done, count your fingers again. If the number is the same as before and you are on your way to becoming "qualified".

I did not teach knife safety until my Bear den demonstrated consistently that they could follow our posted den rules. Around April, they have achieved that goal and were ready to learn a new set of rules - Knife Safety. We started carving soap and then basswood neckerchief slides to be worn for their Webelos cross-over. Had a couple of finger cuts which were quickly bandaged. Overall, this worked well.

Here's the Knife Safety rules that my den proposed. I was pleased that they had obviously read their Bear book and surprised that the first two rules that they came up with are NOT in the Bear handbook.

1. Always have adult permission and supervision.

2. Always know where to get first aid.

3. A knife is a tool not a toy.

4. Know how to sharpen a knife. A sharp knife is a safer.

5. Keep a blade clean.

6. When not using your knife, close and secure it. Close the blade

7. Keep your knife dry. Oil as needed.

8. Before opening a knife make a safety circle.

9. Make easy, shallow cuts away from you. Let the knife do the work.

10. Never throw a knife or cut a live tree.

Be Prepared.

Advance notice would be nice, but this is Boy Scouts. Expect that you will be suddenly asked to help and then just do your best. Now if they asked you to sing, you would have my sympathy.