qwazse

Have you seen kids and their school packs lately? They break my back just watching the little gompers carry them two blocks!

"Defacto Troop Encourager" Now that would go well on a sleeve!

Is the DE actually getting involved? Or is he just telling Cross what he would do in a similar situation. It's unfortunate that the DE got involved. Not because the SM will need to change a thing that he's doing, but that in addition, he should respond in writing. Not E-mail. Probably old school typed or handwritten with one copy going to the boy (probably by hand when the SM has to break the news to the kid). I had to do this once. It was very handy in getting aggrieved parents to talk *to* me rather than *around* me. The gist of the SM's message to the DE is that he appreciates the concerns of the parents, but lacking any evidence of predatory behavior, council needs to let this rest firmly with the unit leaders (SM, CC, COR). And, that it being a boy-led troop, and seeing this particular youth being an honorable lad, he will leave the decision of how to response entirely in the SPL's hands and no one else's. [Obviously if the SM intends to do something specific he can rephrase that.] Finally, any concern about the SM's choice of action can be relayed to the SM through the unit commissioner, and discussion of this matter outside those channels of communication will be summarily dismissed as uniformed gossip. (Boy, do I hate paperwork.) No offense Cross, but if you weren't asked by the SM to run interference you had no business talking to the DE (except maybe to give him the SM's phone number, just in case they have the wrong one at HQ). Be far quicker to listen to the boys. They may be mortified when they realize so many adults got involved in this. They need to know that you all are standing by them.

Smaller bodies = lighter clothes, so your son has some advantages to start with. Hiking and marching band are good cross-training sports. If he works on hiking now, band will be easier. Routine drills that are good for "core stabilization": sit-ups, push-ups, deep knee bends, and balance exersizes. Basic stretching is always good. My problem was I didn't want to commit an hour, so if you can, help him choose a 10' - 20' set before he hits the shower. That way he can have something to do daily that won't try his patience. On weekends, 1-2 hour walks with friends is a good idea. Use this time to BREAK IN THE FOOTGEAR!!! This is the most important. These walks should give him an idea of how thirsty he can get and help him figure out his water needs. (Although being in the habit of carrying 4 quarts is always good, I usually carry only 2qts for a day hike.) Within three weeks, he'll know if he's up for extending his walk to ten miles. Where he walks for conditioning depends on the terrain he chooses for his hike. His conditioning hikes should match the terrain. This can be tough. My brother is a hiking guide in the rockies but winters in Ohio! He found a farm with a 100ft ravine that he can walks up and down repeatedly so he stays in shape. He showed me the place once. I busted his chops for wearing a rut in the hillside. If he plans well, each 10 mile hike will have slightly more varied terrain, so that the first couple prepare him for the last few. Needless to say, this can be a good parent-son activity if he'll put up with you or his mom.

Yep, FB has given us a lot more opportunities to reveal the breadth of a boy's character. The "goal" I've set for our boys is to be bold enough to give each other "12th point" challenges. That means if the boys hear us [adults] cussing, they have the right to call us on it, and we will humbly return the favor if the need arises. That doesn't mean we interrupt each other mid-speech, but we should -- after addressing the speech's content (e.g. get first aid kit) -- point out to the speaker that their language was offensive. And the speaker will apologize and do better the next time he has something to say. So, if this SPL was *my* friend, I would say that I didn't appreciate the obscene posting. (Sometimes I've put a "don't cuss" comment to youths' FB posts.) He would apologize. We'd move on. IMHO CRW, your SM is on the right track. Yes, he will need to explain to the other scout leaders his reasoning, but there's no reason to expect them to walk out over it. But, he should also talk to the younger (hopefully 13+ year old) boys and ask them why they didn't challenge their SPL on that posting. It's easy to wait for a SM or teacher to "blow the whistle", but those adults aren't always around, and the scout law is about taking responsibility to hold each other to that higher standard. As far as Chaplain's aid goes, I've known a few good clergy who were old cusses (and a few vile ones whose speech was impeccable), so I can't see how this makes matters worse. If he has the khustspa to ask forgiveness, he's got what it takes to hold the patch. (Although as SPL he should be looking to farm that out.) As a practical matter, you could ask the boy to delete the offensive post. If the content of the speech is important to him, encourage him to do the work of copying it, carefully removing the expletives.

Nar - I don't recall NESA offering anything except to help one stay connected with other Eagles. That said, Eagles are a diverse group. Herding them in any one direction is not easy. And, maybe not the most desirable thing! The one thing that I missed on as a young adult Eagle, was to participate in scouting internationally. I just didn't see how I could make it "fit" into everything else in my life. Now that I have kids, and lots of adult leaders who were not scouts in my unit, coaching them (and learning from them) seems to be the best use of that bird I earned.

Ya SP, I don't see it working as a bludgeon very well. It's better used as a net: "We're all in it for the boys, so what's the best we can do with our time and talents that will guide them to being caring adults?" For some that's get trained. For others that's getting a spiffy uniform. For some it's throwing down some serious cash. For others that's leaving some knots in the drawer! For others it's listening closely to the youth. For others it's explaining the program to the parents and keeping them a distance from the SM! For others it's telling the youth, "Well that's the way it is, let's suck it up and get it done." We all come into the program at different starting points. The challenge is getting as many of us as possible to grow into it peaceably!

Ya, jblake, and I'm sure one day there'll be a tourist guide on America that will say that you'll only find Boy Scouts out camping on warm summer days. But, the ones who would listen to angels (or -- if you hew to the more modern mythology of Le V. -- would use them as an excuse to sneak back into town for a little warmth) would be the only one's crazy enough to be camping out on a mid-winters night. The story of God's generosity to the lot of us stinking shepherds is about the best Christianity has to offer for an otherwise bleak season. Make of it what you will. Boy do I miss camping this month. But I did get to go wading with the dolphins Christmas Eve morn. They kind of ruined our fishing though. But, it made the Mrs and Daughter happy because they thought they were gonna be just along to help Grandpa stay warm from the shore. Later, we caught up with some little great nieces and nephews and took them paddling on the Sebastian river. (Kayak rental was my present this year!)

m2c - You would be surprised the number of folks who have potential to make $10k purchases of popcorn, but don't. It's hard to judge at a distance if mom and dad were the sole movers and shakers in that deal, or if jr. asked dad if he could sell popcorn. Our kids weren't allowed to solicit at either mine or my wife's office, so we were grateful to the one dad in our den who could and did do something like this. Maybe Mom and Dad were so touched by how much the den did for their boy that making popcorn the corporate gift (instead of the usual gift certificate inside some neutral festive card) was the least they could do FOR THE BOYS. Your district should have a pizza party for the top 5 sellers, so the boy who hit the streets gets a chance to meat the boy who "leveraged" his family assets. The latter might need a helping hand from the former some day. (In a family business, there is no true write-off. Spending capital on edible biofuel decreases the value of your company. That 10k today will no longer gain value and be counted in the boy's trust fund.) You do have a point, that all eyes can be on the one big donor to the exclusion dozen who earned only 1/10th as much. It's good to remember that 12 times $1000 > 1 times $10,000. It's even better to remember that 12 times $1000 + 1 times $10,000 is even greater.

I miss midnight Christmas Eve service! You knew you were "grown up" when you could go to it! And several churches gathered in one building for a combined service. You could catch up with all your friends who came home from college.

I'm sorry, but unlike "Pistols" and "Muzzle Loading" I don't see "Overnight Patrol Camping" on the list of unauthorized activities. Once again we are confusing youth protection with general health and safety. A well-prepared patrol is no more likely to suffer injury with adults vs. without adults on an overnight. Do you know of a case where there was an injury on a patrol overnight and the insurance did not cover it? Moreover, if liability were an issue, your injury is more likely to occur on the G2SS explicitly approved patrol day-hike, than on a camp-out.

Like any quality program, it's the combination of elements, not any single element, that makes it distinctive. Change the thread to "doing without cheerful service" or "doing without brotherhood", and what answers will you get? I think Short's points about really making an effort to connect with your local Native American tribes is important. It's important that boys participate in preservation of something of value, but making an effort to capture the nuances of the ceremony may be the best cross-cultural experience some boys will ever have. (Not everyone goes to world Jamboree.)

jp's line of reasoning is not new, and if abstaining from certain meats helps him march through life with his head held high, more power to him. However, my upbringing was closer to EA's. In SW PA, cattle and bean-crops (your protein substitutes) were for paying bills. Wild game was for feeding the family -- God's blessing to your community for setting aside lands from farming or mining. We knew hunters who were in it just for sport (and to keep their corn fields from being ravaged), and knowing Dad was disabled and Mom had a knack for finding folk who would need some help to make it through the winter, they would bring their kills at our house for us to butcher. I loved skinning deer (a lot cleaner than snapping turtle), and the pelts would go to some poor farmers kid who could sell them. And all the expense for guns and gear for stalking and time spent tracking? Well, we'd all be doing that anyway to prepare for when the Soviets invaded! Like EA, I'm no hunter. But would never turn down fresh game. Moreover, when it comes to knowing local trails for my crew to hike, it's the hunters who can give me the details I need. I'm just trying to figure out how important it is for my state to set aside Sunday for a rest from the sport. P.S. - Oh and EA, if you're ever inclined to share that venison, drop me a PM!

With my oldest B&G was nice, but my favorite memory was when he, his best buddy, his dad and I went on the boys' first backpacking trip. For those two, that defined the transition from cubs to boys..

I don't think a quota would make a difference with our troop. Not all of the boys eligible get elected. If over the past couple of days, you have not helped this year's crossovers adapt to camp, you've lost nearly half your voting block. Cuss and/or prattle on rudely about the gentler sex in front of 2nd year scouts, you've just lost another 20%. That's what I love about elections at camp. After not getting called out, those boys will approach me, and we have a pretty solid discussion about how to correctly "set the compass" for the following year. I tell them the next time I hear them acting inappropriately, I won't yell. I will simply walk up to them and say "And you wonder why?" For that reason alone I am grateful for O/A, and the SM's status doesn't matter at all. The rest of us in the troop will keep offering it to the boys. That lightens the SM's burden. But, authenticity (both in terms of Native American culture and cheerful service) are what makes our chapter worth joining. Keep that up, and you'll maintain interest. Bringing back secrecy and rough-and-tumble stuff does our boy's interest. That's just hiding a light under a bushel. How are you going to get your non-O/A SM to appreciate the program if he feels excluded from a ceremony? Bringing "the honor camping society" back into use may help with vision. Certainly a lot of boys are interested in a venturing crew if it's activities are "above and beyond" the troop's. Can't hurt for O/A.

MT: The term applies to protestant worship as well. And when I grew up, 'dem Presbyterians served communion then. Besides, Meryl would be really upset if we took the mass out of Newton's day!

SSSc:It really would be appropriate to have a Faith and Chaplaincy forum (look at this series!), thus alleviating the load on the I&P and other forums. Face it, a lot of us simply don't believe and the separation of F&C and I&P! I can see it now. One of us makes a comment with religious overtones and SSSc and his thought police will petition Terry to move it to the virtual "Avenue of Churches" and leave it there. This entire thread is not about Faith and Chaplaincy. This is about what policy should be used to handle the issue of unfettered expression of religion. It is in exactly the right forum for this site.

HC - Except for one or two really active individuals, my numbers are a lot like yours, and the Troop and Crew are under the same roof. This term, our troop's SPL has two leadership positions in our crew and our ASPL has one leadership position in the crew. So, yeah, it's a drain on both units when that happens. (But it's a youth decision, so we're stuck with it.) On the flip-side, in their positions with the crew they hone some leadership skills that I've seen them apply in the troop. So our patrol method isn't any more broken than it was before we rolled out the Venturing program. IMHO limited use of the patrol method is more a function of adults unwilling to let it happen than any draw that the crew has. You may not see it this way, but your boys who are multiples with that other crew and only showing up for one activity are doing them a HUGE service. They are giving some other youth an opportunity to plan a program for them. As advisors, that's kind of what we're looking for.

Pack. It was a Papal thing. (Might makes right, basically.) There are Christians (strident anti-Catholics) who oppose a set date. Then in the U.S. capitalists seized it as a money-maker. The Nativity scene was the invention of St. Francis of Assisi. His parishioners didn't have much to offer for Christmas besides themselves, so he said "OK, That works." Then, folks who saw it said "Hey I could make a carving of that so I don't have to go out in the cold and stare at these peasants ..." Then, folks looked at the carvings and said, "Hey, we could dress up like peasants and do that!" [source: qwazse's crassly redacted history of the world.]

MT: What was wrong with allowing a Jewish display?? Not always on (and usually finished by) the 25th. Or a Santa display?? St. Nicolas day is the 8th. Or some other winter wonderland display?? Sure, how about Jan 2nd - Feb 13th? I don't think Orthodox Christians would mind -- they usually don't insist on displays in public squares on Jan 6th. The counter question: Why insist that every day/season that is special to one religion be turned into a pantheon? P.S.- In the show you were watching, did the characters actually disallow a menorah? That would be funny since the historical context of any Christ narrative is necessarily post Maccabees! (No temple, no lampstand. No lampstand, no restoration. No restoration, no point announcing a new king.)

TT We have POR descriptions that say "attend 75% of meetings and Troop activities" and then do not take attendance., Have you asked your boys the question my theapist friends hate asking. "Tell me, how does that make you feel?" If they say "Don't worry, we know who's a 50%-er, and we'll tell you if he should not be on a ballot." Then you probably are okay. If they say "Nobody can meet that mark. It stinks." Then you might want to rethink the policy with them. (Possibly increasing the importance of troop Scribe.) If they say "Who cares? You adults are going to do what you're going to do." Then you have a big problem and the committee needs to know about it right away and figure out how to get boys more involved in the process. And here's my point: none of us old folks can define the expectations for our units. The best we can do is reflect what we hear from our boys about what's fair and what should be expected for each POR. (Warning the boys that if they expect X one of THEM will have to be in charge of reporting X!)

No surprise that Christians want special treatment. They spent centuries co-opting this holiday from the pagans (and suppressing some Evangelicals who insist that one day on the Julian calendar not be elevated above any other). Now that they've made the whole thing into a syncretic secular economic engine that no idol-fashioner could ever have imagined, and demand a token of respect for their success, every marginalized group wants in on the action! Well boo hoo! Get your own day. Now if the atheists want to organize a unified display around some prominent date (say Voltaire's birthday, or the anniversary of the invention of TV) that motivates folks to go out and consume big bucks and spurs people to part with their hoarded dimes (or credits) to grease or economy, more power to them. It's the American way. Actually I don't mind if they make a play for the 25th, it just seems pathetic.

I like your definition Brent. It meshes with our communication-oriented society. Sometimes I think we should do role call at meetings just like we do at camp. At the SPL's direction each patrol sounds off: "All present or accounted for sir" "Who is not present Mr. PL?" "Joey and Johnny, sir" "Did they both call/text/E-mail you as to to their absence?" "Well sir Joey told me he had to visit his grandma, and I know Johny has practice for the game." "Mr. PL, that was not the question I asked you." "Sorry sir. No, they did not both tell me." "Would you please, then, revise your count?" "One unaccounted for, the remaining present or accounted for, sir."

Never saw a big problem with NS leaders. We all come to the table with different skills. And sometimes different baggage. On the flip side, I am excited that some of my first venturers are now old enough to sign on as co-advisors. I would like my replacement to have a better "from the bottom up" perspective than I had starting out as a non-venturing leader. (Yes, having a bit of scouting experience helped, but not much.) No problem with female SM's. If the boys love and respect 'em, keep them in charge. If you ever make it down to Key West, check out the sculpture garden on the edge of Mallory Square. There's a bust of one lady to whom all the scouts in the Keys owe their gratitude. No problem with former scouts who aren't helping with the program now. Invariably they are caught up helping others, and those recipients of the good turns just don't happen to be members of the BSA.

Other facts not in evidence: The impending military career, noble as it is, can sometimes be a "wake-up" call to go after Eagle. The sudden realization that a boy might get a bump in pay-grade is enough to motivate some boys who three months earlier were dismissive of the badge. Even if that was his motivation, would I ask the SPL to find the boy a POR? Probably. But, then again, our troop does not have fixed elections. I have no idea what the history of the OP's troop is that would require them to stick to the schedule, but our troop plays fast-and-loose with elections and appointments, and sometimes I think we suffer from "schedule slip" and our program hurts because of it. So, I'm with Beav. Don't throw stones. The ASM and SM should talk so that they understand each other's thinking -- even if they disagree. It's perfectly fine that the ASM communicate the opinions of the troop back to the boy, and explain him his options. There's nothing wrong with that being done out of a sense of loyalty to the boy and his folks. So I think CR8 did the right thing. It will be interesting to see what the boy decides.