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100% of boys FCFY is what offends us. That a couple of "ahead of the curve" boys deservedly earn FCFY is not a problem. When you tell me that my unit lacks quality because it's taking on average 2.5 years for a boy to achieve FC, I reply that that is precicely why our unit is quality!

I think Kathy nailed it. Not only does a scout learn, a scout teaches. We teach our PLs to find out what their boys need for their next rank, build a program around it, and teach the skills for it. We have our scout-ranks/tenderfoots teaching newbies the parts of the badge. Second class scouts teach basic knots and let the tenderfoots know who they can talk to about rights and responsibilities. First class scouts demonstrate line rescues and arrange hikes. Now we don't intentionally make every SMC a review session, but if a boy can't show he knows a skill, we send him back to the books. (Since I don't teach EDGE, our boys know that learning a skill starts with reading a reference.) We don't delete his signature. We won't take away his 2nd class rank. But we aren't going to worry about a week's delay. We don't give him a pass because that just insults his intelligence.

Nag is a hard job. Done well, everyone loves you. Done poorly, you're doomed. The parent who shows up or sends her boy with a box of homemade chocolate chip cookies -- troop cookie-master.

As a crew advisor, this comes to the fore a lot. I've known parents who simply couldn't trust the YP guidelines to keep their daughter (on case it was a son) safe. Explaining the G2SS to them in detail didn't help. One youth upon turning 18 wanted to join the crew, and I encouraged her to still get the okay of her folks. It was sad when they didn't approve, but I told her I admired her for respecting their wishes and left it at that. The parents who could trust us were the ones who were willing to come on outings and see things in operation.

Way to go, Bart, now I LOST THE GAME! I figure it's renamed because a lot of us have read or studied game theory. And you've made the WB-ers point. If you are "in the game" to "win all you can" you loose sight of the possibility that "you all can win". In other words, if the aims of scouting are not valuable, your best strategy is to get the most out of the program for you and your kid and not return too many favors. But, if the aims do have intrinsic value, your best strategy is to make sure the way is clear for everyone to achieve those aims in hope that you'll be included in the winning. Sure, it's a little hokey. But I think that's the point. BTW ... Our course director did reference the prisoner's dilemma.

On pirates: I just read a quote from a brigand who was arrested by Alexander the Great [to which I can only paraphrase at the moment]: "the only difference between us is I rob using one ship while you do the same with an armada." On what-to-do-with-my-kid: Keep in mind that the SM may have gotten jumped on by the last BOR for sending up scouts who had no clue about insignia, and he was just trying to save the boy the embarrassment that comes with failure in front of a bunch of adults. Not saying the adults' attitude is right, but sometimes that's the dynamic. If your boy's having fun, stay. Volunteer to offer a skills challenge on one or two requirements. (For example, I routinely offer orienteering challenges and water rescue, another dad is all about fire starting, another about citizenship, another about insignia.) Make it available to the entire troop. Have a prize for the best patrol or the boy who is first to submit an answer in writing. It could take up the morning of a campout, a 15 minute opening activity, or an 5 minute announcement. Make it so the SPL can set it up (or at least help). You don't have to change everything. You just need to offer one thing that will enhance the program. (If you think of 5 things like that, hustle up and take WB because your ticket's nearly written.) You just explain to your son that bureaucratic delays are part of the micromanagement of this troop, and enduring them is the price of sticking with it. If he's okay with that price, he'll learn to stick with it. If he's not having fun, let him know it's okay to visit other troops and transfer to one that's more his style. When he's older he may find himself building patrols with other boys anyway (e.g. Jambo, O/A, etc ...), so he's just getting a head start on that fun part of scouting. But, point out that chances are a boy-led troop may not sign off on requirements as quickly. PL's are busy people, and you often learn the parts of the badge on your own. Or if you do it in a group, you aren't allowed to sign off on it until at least the following week, and you have to get it perfect before they'll sign off (no looking it up and coming back that same hour), and there's no rank-advancement SMC until the PL is sure your stuff is in order. At the end of the day, forall the fun you'll have, advancement may go a little slower.

Well ... references can be a selective list. The advantage of someone from the community, is you can easily use the local grapevine to tap more folks than are on the reference list. But, as Beav pointed out, a really good predator knows how to hide in plain sight. He/she is unlikely to be the bumbling 19 year old who's new to town and looking for some way to make himself useful to the community where he just landed.

I think each year a good program should provide multiple opportunities for a boy to exercise every T-2-1 requirement. In this age of velcro and ratchet straps, I'm never surprised when a boy forgets how to tie a sheep-shank. But, when he can't re-learn it quickly by going to the book, that's a problem. If a boy shows continued ineptitude with knots, I don't want him advancing. Why? Because his patrol can't count on him to pull it together (literally) when they need him to. He is, by definition, not a First Class Scout.

MIB, I'm with you. There are certain hassles with young adult leaders, but the payoff is usually bigger than the grief. I think the apprehension isn't entirely age. Part of it is "stranger danger." Successful troops are tight communities and have built up a pretty stable core of leaders from a narrow set of channels. They look askance at that "foreign influence" and stick to their usual sources for adult leadership so long as they aren't betrayed by them. I suspect if I turned my resume' into Eng and his wife -- absent my 14 year old first class scout-son -- it too might get rejected. I'd find my way to a unit that needs me. Although they may be rejecting an asset and making their boys no more safe, I doubt it would hurt their program much.

vol, First, thank you for your cheerful service. You're in for a wild ride. (That includes, among other things, getting niggled until you call it a "Venturing" crew.) I introduced myself to my youth at their inaugural meeting as "the first crew advisor I ever met" and promised that my co-advisor and I would try to correct that (by taking Venturing Leader Specific Training) before they met again. Being humble at the start helped a little. Also, I think it made the kids realize they were starting something new. Time for them will go by so fast, so you don't want to squander any leadership opportunities. If I had it to do over again ... The advisor would start with elections at this first meeting. The way I do it ... - Introduce the program for about 5-10 minutes. - Then, describe the officers you need. (Some crews feel the need Quatermaster, Historian, and Guide while others do without.) Give them an index card with the title, "Crew ###, 2011-2012 Officers" and the positions down the left hand side. Give them a pen. Say, "You have 15 minutes when I come back, I expect you have selected the right people and put their names beside the office you've elected them to." - Leave the room and take any parents with you. I would take all adults to the other room and explain that while the kids are electing their leaders you need them to organize in two ways: - Decide how the committee chair should organize and schedule committee meetings. (My one requirement is that no committee meeting is held in the absence of the crew president.) - Complete a program capability inventory (forms for these are in the leader's manual, but you can get them online.) - Remind parents that they need to complete youth protection if they want to officially register with the crew. - Advisor emphasizes that we don't produce *any* program unless the youth initiate it. Parents who insist on doing too much for the kids will be remanded to VLST. (And deprived of caffeine and chocolate if necessary.) - Advisor reminds them that female adult leaders are precious in the eyes of many in venturing. If there is a mom or older sibling willing to camp and hike wherever with the young women in your crew, you may not be able to guarantee her much besides the admiration of young people who will be thankful for that woman's availability. While adults stay and cogitate, advisor returns to the youth and thanks the newly elected officers for their ensuing year of service. Say, "I'm sure you'll do an excellent job. Officers we need to figure out some times for us to meet at length. But, let's use the remainder of our time to brainstorm about activities you all want to make happen in the next year or two." You can hand out the activity interest survey, or lead a brainstorming session. Your newly elected secretary can record results. (Take that paper home, it will be your compass when you do meet with the officers.) Bring everyone together. Introduce the officers for the upcoming year. Let them know that the adults before them will be available at the youths' request. Look forward to the next meeting. Anyway, that will make for a busy meeting. But, it will give you an idea of what's really important for the kids and enable you to set your compass. There will be plenty of other meetings where you can discuss the nitty-gritty like by-laws, uniforms, public displays of affection, chairmen-of-which activity.

One of the boys in our troop has one. He loves it. Still sleeps on the ground though! Enjoy experimenting. As far as packs go, don't get one so big that you'll fill it with stuff that will weigh you down. If you can borrow a friends until you decide which one works best for you, I'd take that route.

When it comes down to it, what makes a Jamboree is the scouts who go there. If meeting people from everywhere is your thing, then this is the place for a young lad to start. At least, that's the core of my Jamboree memories from 30+ years ago. That said, I've never been interested in going back, nor have my kids had much interest. (Although, my daughter enjoyed hosting a local satellite party of the arena show.)

V. There's no such thing as "a" personal 1st aid kit. You should have one stashed in every gear bag you have. One thing I try to leave behind: a hike plan! Don't clear your patrol to go without one!

I like my VLA knot. And did wear the bling on one formal occasion. When I heard it was being phased out, I had my DE get a second knot for my scout uni. It's nice to have something that no other adults are getting. But, a knot or nothing but a handshake ... either way I'm happy it isn't a plaque!

Thanks for the update. Regardless, y'all did right by TT.

Just a thought: OA chapter chiefs and venturing officers should be planning/administering district/council activities. My point, if a youth are promoting the events, they may be more sensitive to expenses, etc ... Certainly we have negotiated for better fees when our VOA cabinet says "that's nice, but too expensive for me and my crew." Also, if a kid is collecting the fee, you might be less frustrated about paying it.

"Trust, but verify. In that order. " No way... "Verify ... decide if you trust the verification ... consider closely monitored events." Yeah sure, like, if the guy's been a collegiate football coach for years, you can trust that verification more than if some young buck's scoutmaster tells you he is worth the bling over his left pocket? We see how well that worked for the kids in Happy Valley. Don't get me wrong, we need to be on our guard, but like Beav explained, the strangers are no more of a threat than the familiars.

If you think it's unfair for leaders to pay for stuff only the youth would use, then you need to factor that into the cost of the event. (E.g. for 20 youth to bring 2 leaders, cost per youth would be 10% more.) Then let your boys decide if it's worth it. I had to "vote with my feet" this summer because another adult and I were charged full price for chaperoning an $40 event. This was a change in policy at council from the previous year. We weren't aware of it in time to adjust our budgets or to find adults who really wanted to get the patch, t-shirt and headlamp that came with the event. Simply put, neither she nor I were prepared to pay for anything except pitching in for the food we'd eat. My crew, having only recruited 6 youth participants, was not willing to pay extra to cover our charges in order to still go. The youth bowed out of the event. The youth made a last minute decision not to go over budget for the event. For that much $$, we could forgo the bling and hire a guide to have us enjoy a day on some serious cliffs. I sincerely hope the folks running the program were okay with losing 6 participants because they couldn't charge us for 8. I'll be sure to let them know the next time we're invited. Either way, no hard feelings.

LV, if they dole out a knot for wilderness soloing with less than 5 lbs of gear for a week, I hope you wear it. I'd like to pick you out of a crowd and shake your hand.

I honestly have not heard of anyone turning down any young adult solely on the basis of his/her age. No offense to the Mrs., Eng 61, but you all sound a little paranoid. Trust, but verify. In that order. That said, if the SM feels adult:youth ratio is a little top-heavy, he may not feel like taking on another ASM, so signing up newcomers to town doesn't always need to be a given.

TT, just keep in mind that getting rid of the trouble maker doesn't get rid of the trouble. In your case the trouble is a boy who is picking up a negative vibe from his parents and using it as an excuse to "coast." So, as much as it will be a thorn in your side, you're stuck "coaching" this dad to be positive with his son wherever he lands. That includes encouraging the boy to step up and do his best in his current youth-led unit until the day he transfers to another. Waffles are better with butter or syrup.

Being an ASM, I expect to: Pay my own dues. Get trained on my own dime. Maintain certifications in First Aid, CPR, BSA Guard (council lost the paperwork on that one, I can't find the card, so I may be stuck). Maintain a vintage uniform (thus teaching the boys thrifty and clean at the same time). Attend troop meetings. Attend committee meetings as time allows. Inform and apologize when I can't make one. Offer my opinion to the CC only when asked. Communicate with the SM regularly. Support his views. Coach him where he needs it. Fill in for him when he's not available. (To one of your points, Moose, all of our over-21 ASM's are of a caliber that they can lead an activity if they want to, no SM required.) Be available for activities. Especially ones where my skills would help. Keep a healthy distance away from my son's advancement. (Mom can prod him.) Be the advisor for our venturing crew. (It was either gonna be me or another more qualified ASM. Guess I got the "short" straw. 'Been lovin' it ever since.) I'm sure there are other things, but this is what I expect from myself and other ASM's. I don't know how important it is that I "pay my own dime". But I write it off as charitable contributions anyway. Tried the ASM-to-patrol thing. Big waste of time.

This is one reason why I'm no fan of NSP's. They can easily become NSC (New Scout Cliques). But, even with crossovers fed directly into existing patrols, you can experience these kinds of splits. I am much more in favor of splinter groups starting their own troops rather than giving some other SM a new set of headaches. It gives the adults a chance to learn and grow and discover "no matter where you go, there you are."

Wow. Where have I heard this before? Here's a few suggestions to make sure you avoid that slimy feeling. Let the SM know he might get an "influx". Explain the situation as you understand it, and ask him if you could touch base in a few months to see if he hears something that your troop may need to address. Dismiss boys from POR's based on performance only. If one of these boys has been doing his job, but wants to try out the other troop because his buddy just relocated there, make note of his time served and encourage the new SM to line up a similar position for the lad. Make sure your even-handed about the POR's and review every boy in a position regardless of his intent to leave the troop. If a camporee is not in your future, suggest to your SPL a joint outing with the other unit. Maybe one where you all share the same campground but your boys do their thing during the day while the other troop does theirs. Camp at a reasonable distance, but plan for an evening campfire together. Ask the boys leaving if they would be willing to donate uniform parts (#s, neckers) specific to your troop so that new boys who join could use them. Yes, you will have to address the parents who remain. Let them know if they want a thorough explanation, come to the next committee meeting. Tell them you really appreciate seeing their boys every week, and would appreciate continuing to do so. Explain that you want their boys to maintain goodwill to the other boys so that the scout spirit will be alive in both troops. You're probably going to loose a committee position or two, so have the CC announce the vacant positions. Have the CC make solid plans for school recruitment, because those dozen boys potentially mean 12 less boys invited to your troop.

Well, technically (see other threads fretting about internal revenue, etc...), the balance is not the scout's. It's the troop's. You have only allocated certain amounts from fundraisers for the scout to use so that he can be properly equipped for the good of the troop. That said, I agree with E92. It's a big deal. Some boys are embarrassed that they have money at their disposal (or more properly, have stewardship over troop funds) when others do not. Other boys who have less (or none) might feel defeated by those who do. Having online balances that anyone can browse allows for both categories of unnecessary frustration. Anyway, even if scouts don't have a positive balance, they will probably check the scout account option anyway. (It defines our culture.) I would make payment and sign-up a two step process. The treasure contacts the boy about payment options after he signs up and lets the boy know his options based on the allocation in his account.