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The Girl Scout Troop method! Works wonderfully, except the boys don't LEARN anything! Aside from all of the leadership and planning stuff, they don't learn how to cook neatly. Why don't you have the adults clean up for the boys for a change? I know why! Because no adult wants to deal with the mess that a couple of boys will make in your campbox! Tell the SPL to make adjustments. Either put the boys in ad-hoc patrols or keep them separate. The general advantages and disadvantages of each have been discussed in other threads. But here are a couple of scenarios related to chow: A patrol of 1 is not a big deal for cooking. You might need to coach a tenderfoot a little on planning and making a meal and explain the situation to his folks so they can help him a little. Kids who are picky eaters sometimes find this to be a great opportunity! Or, if the Spartan patrol finds out that the grub-master for the Epicurean is on his own for the weekend, they might recruit him ad-hoc for his skills before the Stoic patrol finds out that the the troop's gourmet chef in the wind! Of course it can pan out dozen's of ways. Regardless, you gain so much more by letting the boys sort it out and moving the adults to an advisory capacity.

MT: We're still trying to figure out the implications of this Venturing District. But it maps with "facts on the ground." Venturers aren't as geographically locked as Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts. They make tight associations with youth on the opposite ends of council (and area, region, nation, and world) and seek out activities in and provide service to districts other than their own. They have this proclivity to venture beyond district boundaries (go figure). We're just trying to tap that and make it work more smoothly for the unit leaders (who still are more than welcome to go to their local district roundtable if it suits them). Who knows if this will be the case if the price of gas keeps climbing. But the point is our COR is as proud of the kid in our crew who becomes a volunteer fireman in our neighborhood as he is of the kid who works at an orphanage overseas. He just doesn't want to be obliged to another roundtable. (I'm not even sure if he's gone to a the pack and troop's district roundtable.) He certainly doesn't want to fret over herding cubs into our troop when there are plenty of young men in our community who weren't cubs who deserve our invitation.

I think we can thank a bunch of folks who wanted to learn from repeated wrongdoing. (Indirectly I guess we can thank God for church fathers who centuries earlier insisted that the Roman permissiveness regarding sex with boys should not be part of anybody's culture.) YP puts us all on the same page, so without my SM having to ask awkwardly, my son and I will stick around until the last boy's parent comes and picks him up. It changes the culture. Is it enough to protect every boy from predation? No. But it certainly gives the Joe Pa's of the world a decisive course of action when predation occurs on their watch.

Sounds like it is someone from your district with a specific agenda. You'll have to find them and ask where they got their idea from. In our council, all of the venturing crews are in their own district, which would make things even more complicated for our COR if he was to stay on top of everything that was going on.

That's it Scout and Pack, I'm turning y'all in to your respective COR's for unseemly internet innuendo!

I know there are parents who are bitter when the pack doesn't automatically feed its members into our troop. So much wasted hot air. There are parents who are bitter when the crew and troop do work together. ("You're ruining the patrol method!" "Little Johnny is isn't ready for girls yet!") And there are those who are upset that I don't "automatically" multiple any eligible boys to the crew. Meanwhile our charter organization is simply thrilled that all these youth are coming through the building! The youth are happy. They're happy. I doubt the COR is going to sweat the details.

Can you find a volunteer to give them a gps lesson and get them started on a geocache challenge? I set up a challenge on the grounds of our camp that kept some ventureres half the morning and half the afternoon. (They actually made and hid their own caches and had to exchange coordinates and try to find each other's hides. Model rocket kits are also a reasonable thing to do. Especially if someone had a launcher. They could build them in the morning and launch them for the cubs in the afternoon. Anyway, you get the idea. Instead of money, maybe an investment of an adults time might give them a skill that they would enjoy and be entertaining to the cubs as well.

Owl pellets are cool. no argument there. Four off the top of my head ... Meteor showers. Glowing embers. Fish jumping. Whippoorwill calls. Never experienced as an 11 year old, but when I learned how to snorkel watching life scuttle about on a coral reef, or on the bottom of a freshwater lake.

I hear ya E. The family just got me one of these too. Dolphin web browser is probably the most useful free app I've grabbed so far.

The content of my web presence of mine is bounded by one thing: my religion. Alcohol is not prohibited, so no problem if a scout sees me slowly sipping a libation on New Years with my friends and family. Drunkenness is prohibited, so no scout should have to see me not in control of my faculties -- ever. What BSA guidelines have to say is irrelevant.

I think there is a "scout oriented " way of using electronics. It can be seen in how our military scouts use PDA's for tactical purposes, but it can also be seen in how our youth look out for each other online. Simple example: it wasn't until I went to Jambo that I learned about minimum impact camping. If I hadn't walked by a demonstration site, I would have never known about such a thing. And sharing it with my troop took a lot of effort because I was in no position to buy a bunch of books on the subject. Now a PL can do a few searches and come up with enough material to relay to his scouts, either by email or text message. They can put together a workable plan for a hike or campout and be better prepared than ever before. Heck, some of them know the dangers of hypothermia because nowadays their video game character will actually die from overexposure if they aren't careful. I equate scoutcraft with resourcefulness and a belief that with small numbers and humble tools a group of youth can do great things. Energy efficient electronics has the potential to coordinate those small numbers, so I'm not as bothered about that. I'm a little more worried about Velcro. That has potential to really undermine scoutcraft!

I, too , tend to eat quality, but not for a large banquet. And I focus on seasonal food. The gourmet meal that I cook on the trail Saturday is usually dictated by what's on sale at the market Thursday. The challenge with B&G's is you need to balance finances and tastes of everyone involved. Sometimes a parent needs to realize that their idea might not be the best one even if they are very enthused by it. The best way to put it is to explain that the goal is to honor the kids and we want a meal and a program that is good, but not so complex as to distract from any parent enjoying the day. Now, if the parent would like to organize an adult evening for a district or council fundraiser, I'm sure those folks would appreciate her input!

Here's an idea ... Don't sign off on any badge at the MBU. At the end of the weekend, boys get the MBC's contact info and can arrange an appointment in the following weeks. Use the U primarily for the "Explain" and "Demonstrate" portion, and for boys to meet a bunch of counselors and vice versa, and buy the book if they're interested. That way their contact after they get their blue card isn't so "cold." Then, they can set up the "Guide" and "Enable" portion later. (I'm just using EDGE for argument's sake here.)

Sounds like a fun gig. Was kayaking with the family on the Sebastian river Christmas Eve (tarpon, gator, and manatee). Got the outfitter's business card. Given the temps this weekend, I might be able to cajole my crew to plan a trip next year. I appreciate knowing about the other options.

... the whole frustration is we adopted SOAR to get away from that. You can run but you cannot hide! The number of times I said "some moron had to have programmed that already"....

Fred, I felt your pain. I grew up in the days of "digital standard run-off". I get blank stares from my IT staff when I try to describe that I want data sans borders and colors. That's why I learned to use the Google Calendar API to generate a text only version of our calendar in Javascript. No bells or whistles, just an outline (event, location, details if any) and the calendar App embedded below it: http://www.pitt.edu/~qqq/Crew321/Calendar.html I usually don't print it out, I cut-and paste, but you get the idea. Find the hacker in your troop, give him a webmaster patch, and have him copy and twist my code for your nefarious purposes.

ALB, three words "Get Den Chief(s)!!" This should be the topic of conversation with the SM. If he can identify a boy for each of your dens, that's gravy. But you should at least start by getting one for the W1's. By his very demeanor, a DC will reflect the culture in his troop. Something that no DL can do. (I couldn't even do it for my youngest son's den when I was an ASM in big brother's troop. The best I could do was talk about troop life. Matt, our DC, could demonstrate it on their level.) W1s should all learn the oath, law ... They should say it together at the start of every meeting. And you should introduce to and quiz them on the meaning of the words and the insignia. That's 10 minutes of every meeting. As far as activities go, show them this chart: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/ageguides.pdf and focus on the items where the bar starts at Webelos. For example, pioneering (lashing sticks together to build simple things like towel holders, cooking tripods, and siege engines) is seriously cool and appropriate for this age. (O.k., one mile pumpkin chuckin trebuchets may need to wait some years.) So you start on the knots -- not to be a mini-Boy Scout, but to be a pioneer (Native American or Settler)! You don't start learning the bow-saw to be halfway to First Class before you cross-over. You learn it to be a lumber-jack and make saw-dust. You get the idea. They are to be imitating Boy Scouts, but not as an end in itself. Rather, to get the discipline and skills to see themselves fitting into the wide world. Keep up that spirit then in two years, you can reflect with the guys. Show them that chart again, and say "Here are the other things you can do. How 'bout sticking with a troop?" Three years after that, you talk to them and their sisters and their girlfriends and say "Anyone wanna shoot some Colt 45s?..."

Tell "Sarge" to put the charges in writing and copy the COR. You will then review it with him to see if any actions are warranted in light of the CO's vision. If she things any of your "offenses" are actionable, remind her that she is *obliged* to report them to the SE and the authorities immediately. There is no "60 day" warning period. Most commishes want to keep direct-contact leaders in their positions. So, you can expect the "warm fuzzies" from them when you talk to them.

Your CC needs to be informed that every time she takes on a responsibility of a CM, she is abdicating her role of a CC. And, that's not good for the pack. You need to make clear that you will call her on every negative comment with a "Madame, you are out of order." Say it's nothing personal, but her boys are going to cross over to boy scouts, and if they have it in their heads that they can buck the SPL publicly at every juncture, they might find themselves scrubbing more latrines then they ever knew existed. Pack meeting is your hour. Committee meeting is hers. W2 den meeting is hers. Regarding prayers, you could always reply "But, ma'am, we ought not to keep God waiting!" Of course let your IH know that there's this tension and uncertainty going on. Let him also know that the boys seem to be having a lot of fun.

IMHO, a direct payment from the family makes for easier accounting for tax purposes. If the scouts want to make a contribution through the troop, they should do so before budgeting the $ to a scout account. Scout accounts are essentially discretionary spending for individuals to make purchases that enhance the life of the unit.

I agree with Beav, except that you may not have been able to avoid the impression of a "chink in the armor." Lynch mobs often interpret deliberation as inaction and there may not be anything you can do about it. If you would have said "we're doing x" at the outset, they would say you were thoughtless and irresponsible! Also, in church terms, there are "prophets" who rail on an institution if it's more prone to dispense grace than judgement. If you're lucky, all of the stone throwers actually worship elsewhere. If not, well, let's just say your church board is going to need some additional patience over the next several decades. Regardless, let your IH note the stance you and the SM are taking. Explain that this is based on everything you learned from what is taught on the pulpit. Move on from there.

I have yet to review this with our crew president. (Getting a few adults to push paperwork has consumed an obscene amount of energy.) But, since we went over the standards last November, I think the kids will have learned that seemingly easy goals are no slam-dunk. Did anyone review their JTE with their SPLs? I would love to hear from any SPLs who may have gone over this with their troop.

Sleep out in the cold, cook in the cold and prepare for the cold? Sounds like a routine to us. Do we really need a program? If you find a couple of volunteers who would be willing to help make it work over the long term, present them to council and you might have a program.

MT: A circus by any other name is a recruiting night. Go for it!!! I think one of the goals would be to drum up 1/2 dozen tiger families for the pack. What would be gravy would be if one dad was a former scout and therefore cub leader material. As CM, MIB can figure out if the pack can have the hall on a different night than the BS. He can grab the COR and say, "I need a little history so I can do my job better." (Maybe there is a little religious persecution or something else going on!) He can pull the line: "I'm in college, I got mid-terms right before your B&G, so I need you all to step up a little more to make things work for these kids." Each parent may need to consider an open house night/activity in their respective neighborhoods. The pack might just need to get out and get recognized. If folks don't step it up and provide these boys a program for the next 6 months, then you both will have to let it slide.

The cross-over itself was just a formality in my mind. (Maybe because there was no cheap imitation of Native Americana involved.) Don't know if it's my son's favorite memory, but mine was his first backpacking trip we took with his buddy and dad that same year. It was just the four of us and really represented the transition from the cub world to a place where dads began to step back. Advancement was not instantaneous with those two, but 7 years (and lots of miles hiking, biking, and canoeing) later they both Eagled.