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Some youth may feel more comfortable taking NYLT with their peers. Although unlikely, a 20 y.o., may have just spent the year on prepping for high adventure with the 13 y.o. who just joined his/her crew. IMHO, there's no reason to rush a 20 y.o. into WB21C. There may be tons of reasons to encourage it, but few of them are scouting related. (E.g., the youth is advancing in his/her job or growing a new business and could use a little management training "outside the box". A youth is spinning gears in college and needs a "safe" environment where he or she could do a little goal setting.) Anyway, those older venturers (or younger ASM's) should probably get some guidance from adult leaders to sort out which leadership training experience is best for them. Within scouting, their council may be offering three viable options: NYLT, WB, or Kodiak. Personally, I've been trying to steer my youth towards Kodiak, but they aren't biting. So if the other options are available and interest them, I'd encourage it.

More importantly, will the flyers provide the reassuring proviso in both languages: "No wood will be splintered in the implementation of this course."

Yep. Your scout has some work to do. All three of the options for #3 are within his grasp, but the point of #1 is that he talks to you before moving forward. An 11 year old could be cut a little slack for misunderstanding whose approval he needed. So if he shows up with #3 a, b, or ,c completed in a couple months and the cat doesn't look like it wants to run away, sign the card. But the point of talking to you is that *you* set the bar for the boy, not the other way around. If he decided to host a neighborhood pet show in his back yard (maybe for a fundraiser for charity), and his cat wasn't the only attraction, I would have counted it. But, if you're unimpressed, it's a good indication that the requirement is not completed. You never know about a boy's social relationships, he may very well have a friend who is getting his/her first cat. The kids mom might be tickled that the scout is willing to help make sure little Johnny or Janey becomes a responsible pet owner! Years ago, at Mallory Square in Key West, I met this French guy who trained his cats quite well. They did a fairly complex agility course (including jumps through hoola hoops). Plus they could line up in order and sit. It was an impressive display. A couple of my dollars went into his hat. After constantly tossing him off in the middle of the night, and the wife being upset about me waking her, I taught our cat "*my* side of the bed". Every time he'd crawl on me, I'd snarl that command and he'd relocate to the opposite corner by my wife's feet! Oh and remind parents that you are doing the boy a favor. He'll thank you when he's 17.5 and knows to ASAP knock on a counselor's door for one of the "management" MB's in time to actually earn it and keep his chance for Eagle alive!

Yep. Do it all the time with crews and troops. I feel a little bit "safer" knowing other drivers are heading my direction! I think the youth are better off for the friendships they make. The key is good communication. You need a good estimation of the patrol leaders and their navigation skills. (Canoes can get spread apart and miss pull-outs and portages.) For a big trip it never hurts to have the PLC's meet once or twice ahead of time and have a pre-trip shake-down.

Go for your best choice. Period. If your ASM's are stand-up guys, they'll fill in the gaps. If not, you'll have to reduce part of your program to fit the SM's schedule. Either way, you'll have the role-model you think your boys need.

pack: It doesn't matter that adults screwed up. Actually, it does. We are not teaching our boys unnecessary beaureucratic nonsense. We are teaching them to serve their community. I don't know this kid from Adam, but E92 says he's a stand-up kid who fulfilled the requirements until someone a month before deadline added a local stipulation. That stipulation should be overturned, and time should be put back on the clock for the boy to fulfill the requirement.

Our council operates like Scoutnut's, and it's pretty smooth. E92, sounds like you're wading through a mess. When this happens folks will tag you as trying to upset the apple cart. As necessary as that may be, you need to make clear to everyone that you are standing by a fine young man - and the book. That works both ways, point out to scout mom that expert litigators will take attention away from her boy's hard work. Really, the best way to do this is have council staff call National while you and your district advancement chair are in the same room. Everybody will hear how the chips would fall, and take action to get a worthy service project started with a minimum of delays due to paper pushing!

One more idea to the brainstorm pile: Have the PLC do a skit on the process of earning a merit badge. You'd need at least three actors, one for SM, one for MBC, and one for Scout. The SM is stage right, the MBC is stage left. The scout's home/school/hangout is center stage. Open with the scout at home a little bored, so he decides to work on advancement. He finds his handbook and reads off the list of merit badges until he finds one that interests him. The scout goes back and forth between home, SM, and MBC. SM fills out a blue card and suggests an MBC. MBC demonstrates how he would set goals for each meeting, and arrange to meet in accordance to YP standards. You can even have the boys act out a couple of the distractions (video games, friends, misplaced blue card, uncharged cell phone, etc ...) that get in the way of earning that badge. I just thought of it, so obviously never tried it, but I'm gonna float it by our boys. (One former SPL is really into theater.) If any of yours do it first (or have already done something like it), let us know how it turns out.

We don't know how much they are "lying". Seems like the cards are all on the table. There's no telling how much the young lady is aware of it. But it sure does sound like "hiding in plain site." Considering how few cubs actually cross-over, there's even-odds that this will be an issue for her in two years. But, if it is, here's hoping the GS troops in her area will be a good fit for those 4 years before she's a venturer. (BD's experience parallels mine. There was simply no scouting for my daughter until she finished 8th grade!)

Al, I think your program is good. Leaning on the boys to "hand down" skills needed for particular badges adds to the life of your troop. But, it's a good idea for you and the boys to figure out what MB's they'd like to learn about, but nobody in the group has any skills. Part of your program could be inviting an expert to come and discuss his/her hobby or occupation. That should increase the comfort of the boys in contacting the MBC. What if you're troop doesn't know someone for a badge the boys are interested in? That's what district round-tables are for! In total, merit badge education should be a district activity since there are too many badges for any one troop to promote. But obviously each troop will have to set their own level of district involvement.

-fish's definition is closest to my working definition. Except we've got these beautiful hills, so you don't necessarily have to be driving, you can stop on a spot, and if it's on a grade, you will be moving! Anyway, I redeemed the day by taking my dog for a hike through the snow with a scout parent and sharing my espresso with his family. I said to his son, "There's nothing sadder than seeing your backpack in your living room!"

"Beautiful snow here, treacherous ice and freezing rain there." -- so my campingless streak is extended once again. The SM and I spun our gears over this one up until just now. We decided to postpone pulling out last night. Our departure time was set just at the beginning of the advisory yesterday, and folks at camp said that the freezing rain did not start until well after we would have made it to our cabin. We could have gotten there and been stuck until tomorrow which would have suited us just fine. Now, it's a sheet of black ice for miles around camp and nothings moving. The adult in me says gotta respect our drivers. The kid in me is surly and ill-tempered. I was looking forward to throwing that espresso pot on the wood stove about now, but instead I shoveled snow (fighting the dog the whole way for the shovel) while son #1 cooked up some pancakes and a decent cup of coffee (fairly strong, and with none of the Missus' vanilla flavoring to stink up the whole place ). Guess I'll stay and work on my WB ticket, and try to stir up some youth to have some fun in this snow ...

So wether it be God, Buddha, Odin, Allah, Durga, or Zues.... I guess that's my hang-up. English speakers chose the term "God" to refer to the highest authority of any and all religion. Then Christians successfully pounded it into peoples' heads that this refers to a personal being with a Bible full of very specific traits. So what seems to me to be a perfectly serviceable word is getting tossed by the wayside. (Using SP's term, it's no longer the "mush" it used to be!) So, I go about telling my youth that part of their religious duty is to nurture their understanding of "God" by practicing and growing in their faith. That leads some to fill that container with Jehovah; others the Holy Trinity; others My Dahma; and so on ... This approach seems to help everyone get over the oath and be a little more open to one another's world views. But I'm working with older youth who are capable of that nuanced view. Plus, I haven't been confronted by a Buddhist scout or venturer on the matter. I've only heard cub parents bring it up. So, I'm trolling for an approach that works for them. So far, CambrigeSkip's seems to be the easiest.

I think that may become a personal policy from now on dealing with Eagles Candidates and Scouts asking for money.....I need to see a hard copy of their project budget BD, that's what I teach my 3rd-5th grade Sunday School Students about any church they decide to join. Forget statements of faith. To know if they believe in what you believe, ask to see their budget.

Also, I agree with K that you don't have to rule out the 16 y/o's as PLs. But if you have a 12 y.o. who has the right stuff, don't be afraid to put him at the front of the line-up. I'd say you only have to really split 'em when you have more than 14 who attend meetings regularly.

Our troop is in Choaman's situation, although not dwindling down to 7 anytime soon. But our crossovers aren't hanging in there. (One First-Class-First-Year kid just left us for video games!) See if a couple of the the boys in your troop can get permission to visit the middle school classroom to recruit boys. Set up a campsite on the lawn, demonstrate a fun skill you all like to do. Show pictures, etc ... Pass out flyers, take down names. IMHO, that's your best shot at getting a bunch at a time. As far as organizing patrols. Leave that up to the boys. If your boys seem to be all fairly good teachers, then don't even bother with an NSP. Once you see applications coming in, start the boys thinking about who would like to spin off the new/resurrected patrol. Identify your best natural leader among your younger boys and ask him if he wants be PL of a bunch of new recruits. That happened to me when I was a scout, and sure I had some challenges, but we had a barrel of fun!

rhol - sounds like you're a fast learner. On behalf of the boys you serve, thanks for all that effort in training. Now you have to clock time. That includes helping Mr. Jim be the best SM he can be both at home and Jambo. It's time to get back on the bandwagon and encourage him to keep talking about "his" opportunity. Every staff adult and youth I've talked to has had no regrets about going in that position. So pursue that. Especially if your son is counting on you to be in the vicinity. And brace yourself. It's not any easier as crew advisor. On many adventures I've had to defer to some other adult because ... 1. it was a co-ed crew and I was not an essential leader, 2. when I had $$, I didn't have the time to participate, 3. when I had time, I did not have the $$, and 4. there were enough qualified adults on the trail and one more would be a drag on the contingent. Consider this experience preparation for many disappointments on the way to adventure. Trust me, the youth in your future will need to overcome let-downs like these. A degree in The School of Hard Knocks counts for a lot more than WB or EDGE.

This from a friend-of-a-friend ... I just brought my son to his first Wolf den neighborhood meeting in Cub Scouts. I noticed how "God" is in the Boy Scouts Promise that is recited before every meeting and asked if my son could be a member as a Buddhist. I guess scouting is my new arena for Kosen-rufu! I've stated my personal approach before. (That "God" in its linguistic roots was never specific to any deity, let alone a Judeo-Christian one.) But, clearly when we have a parent who wants to avoid any confusion (either in his son's mind or the minds of his fellow scouts) that doesn't wash too well. Besides, any advice I give is from "outside the tent" and with the goal of keeping a boy in the program. So, seasoned Buddhist scout-parents, how did you handle this? Did you help scout-son choose a different, less "laden" term? Did you help him be able to explain that his use of the word, for the sake of expediting the oath, might mean something different than what the other boys are thinking. Did you let it slide, figuring "duty to God" translates into "duty to the Universal Buddha Nature" without much explanation. How did this work out as your boy grew? What helped? What didn't? If ya'll are nice I'll share this link with the parent who raised the question.

That text comes from the "An adjective describing Venturing:" What do you think the default should be instead of favorable adjective?

Finally started to put together some parts of my Woodbadge ticket. One was a youth-led recruiting effort that involved enabling youth to make a script for a classroom presentation. I put together a Google gadget that does that: http://sites.google.com/site/venturingcrew321/recruiting Let me know if you use it either by posting here or filling out the survey (link at the bottom of the above page).

A natural leader either pulls teams together. Sometimes you need to correct "where" they're pulling them, but mostly you need to set them up so that boys know there's something worth imitating there. And that's probably the best thing you can do for the kids who have to learn to be leaders. Keep them in the company of others who are a few paces down the trail. Then when you have a moment to reflect with those kids, you can toss out the managment theory question such as "What do you think makes __ such a good SPL/PL/QM? Do you think you could be like that?" Whatever you do, please don't make them go to a class on the subject!

Ad hoc Patrols are a good thing. I'm with K on this one. If a self-selecting group of boys wants to go on an adventure, they don't have to be reorganized into their own patrol to accomplish that. Nor do they have to drag the unwilling in their respective patrols along. They do have to communicate with their respective patrols so that everyone knows whose showing up for dinner and who might be out on a conditioning hike/paddle/whatever until nightfall. I too, don't use the word "elite", because most of the "long walkers" are the farthest thing imaginable from "high brow". They don't see themselves as anything special, they just seem to have found a spot on the map that attracts them, and they will do whatever it takes to get there. Often these boys will put in extra time to make sure the troop is in order while they are off doing their thing -- a real servant mentality. The old term "Leadership Corps" applies best to this group. But in a troop as large as yours, you can have several groups like this. Regardless, a good Patrol Method is more about accountability and communication than it is about set numbers of perfectly suited groups of individuals.

IMK: not bashing. Just pointing out to RP that his adults are employing a method that is foreign to Boy Scouts. If you're forming your troops into small groups and the girls are scheduling camputs every month, purchasing their own grub, packing vehicles on their own, and doing their own cooking and cleaning, then you're one peculiar GS leader. If more moms had that sort of vision for their girls, recruiting for my crew would be so much harder because the only unique thing we have to offer is a rag-tag bunch of boys!

Kudos to the CO for keeping their families so engaged! I've said it elsewhere, but NSP's should only last 5 months max. By the time summer rolls around, the PLs should select members from the NSP's to offset their losses from the previous year. This makes that "dwindle and merge" process a scheduled event. How activities are coordinated should be up to the PLC and adult leaders. But certain activities (backpacking along a single trail, for example) are ill-suited for a dozen patrols in the same weekend. Never experienced having to manage events with as many patrols as you have, but for about half the size, I pick an area with multiple loop trails, and have each group come up with a hike plan.

I few years back our council was loaded with "non-traditional" crews (mainly youth groups who signed on to take advantage of the unit insurance and little else). We purged the roles. If that drop in numbers kept our SE from leaving, hooray! He's a good egg.