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This is why things should be decided on a case-by-case basis. Here's a scout who is recruiting a counselor for his district ... basically because he knows she will mentor and come-along-side scouts who might want someone to closely supervise them on big challenges. The scout has leveraged his desire for a parent-child activity to recruit that counselor. Now that need could have been met, and he could have used an existing MBC who would, per his/her modus operandi, met him and mom at the end of the cruise, do a quick after action review, and sign-off on paperwork. But, that might not have gained the district a devoted MBC who will go the extra mile .. times 50! One stone, two dead birds. In the flip side @@ItsBrian, you're gonna owe your mom some flowers and chocolate for every patrol she helps to "get their cruise on."

But that's the difference isn't it? In some parts, an t-shirt does not become an activity uniform until worn with a necker: At least I think that's why BSA tried to get us to warm up to the idea two years ago. Will there really be a higher expectation that everyone will have neckers on hand if not over shoulders? I don't know. But I do know that new arrivals from English-speaking countries will expect to be readily understood, and it might give a scout grief if he or she is not challenged to prepare for a bump or two. On the other hand, if a scout gets a couple mental exercises about recovering when things get lost in translation, he or she will more likely enjoy the differences.

Insert my "It's a big country" rant here. For reasons discussed elsewhere, we may see the occasional American at Jambo forgo neckerchiefs where scouts from other associations wouldn't be caught dead without them. But, I certainly hope that many of our visitors to World Jambo will have time for extended visits to camps and scout houses throughout Canada, the US, and Mexico. The goal of the question is to get a scout thinking on how they would handle something/someone who doesn't have the same expectations as he/she does. This is not has hard when two people don't speak the same language or dress radically differently. Something goes of in the brain that accepts the fact that there be a wide range of things to sort out when communicating, so don't get hung up on small stuff. But when two people look and talk similarly, all of a sudden differences in manners "glare". You might rather send us your scouts prepared to handle those difference with friendliness and courtesy. In other words, it's not about the nail necker...

Welcome, and thanks for you do for the kids.

"Can you tie a friendship knot?" "If you met a clueless Yank, how would you teach him/her a friendship knot?" "If you were to challenge a Yank by throwing down your necker, how would you spare him or her the embarrassment of not having one?"

@@HelpfulTracks, I do not propose to speak for any of the family. Grief like they are feeling has come all too close to our troop. In our experience, our affected family was glad that we all asked very hard questions, although in our case we could find nobody to fault. I would say that unless we here directly from the families involved, these discussions on how to deliver the program we promise don't qualify as "too much to soon." Some of us design backpacking programs for scouts and other young people. Hashing this out and garnering any lessons learned may very well forestall death. So, back to topic ... The YPT portion of G2SS is not at issue here. I've said elsewhere that two unqualified adults on a patrol hike are worse than none. Because of injuries, I have removed myself from sections of hikes and arranged rendevous with contingents of youth and one or none adults at checkpoints or outposts that would minimize my miles hiked. But that was because, among the youth (or one adult) were seasoned backpackers with first aid skills. We had reviewed the plan in advance, including checking the weather and flood levels for potential hazards, adjusting if necessary. Now, on my good days, I only have a clear understanding of the PA/WV envelope. In that context, reviewing the advanced forecast, I would not approve any hike in 105 degree temps for a seasoned patrol of EMT's. That is simply far outside our backpacking performance envelope. And it's not just me. Nobody I know - and that includes friends from the Arabian peninsula - could tell me how to prepare scouts to manage hiking under those conditions. (There are these Sudanese guys and gals in town, but they had to endure a level of crazy heat that they swear they would not wish on their worst enemies.) If I called anyone and said, "There are these boys with this awesome hike plan, the only catch is this week's temps ..." They would tell me to strongly consider caving. So, for this scenario, zero scouts and zero adults is the correct combination that I would guarantee to parents. But what do I know? I was raised 10 miles north of the Mason-Dixon line ... almost almost heaven. Maybe in TX there are scenarios where one can enjoyably hike newbies in 105 deg heat as long as a couple of key people are monitoring vitals. In that instance, if those two key people are 17 y.o. heat shock specialists, I'd count them as the "two adults" that the camp was promising. The point is, when I pick up that brochure, I want to be convinced that the best people for the worst conditions are my kid's trainers, that nobody would put my kid in an advanced situation when his beginner skills have not been given a year to gel, and that the camp director - filling in for the SM - will make no-go decisions when conditions exceed a patrol's performance envelope. But then again, that's why I would never send my kid to camp to learn backpacking.

Well, None took me up on it. I guess they thought it would be habit forming. Actually, I never did ask. I had a relative in the Benedictine order who I was on the verge of calling. Never needed to follow through. My scouts were mostly Protestant or unchurched and wouldn't have a foundation for the fears that you seem to be so intimate with, DCO. In PA, sisters from some orders are avid sportswomen. Sister John Paul Bauer gained a notoriety after her diocese posted a picture of her with her prize buck. Evidently some activists took umbrage of the hypocrisy of Christian clergy killing wild game. They clearly missed St. Peter's vision to "take, kill, and eat" from the cornucopia of the Lord's provision. Regardless, the story made me come up with one of my favorite puns: "Why did Sr. Bauer leave a space for her whiskey in her gun locker ammo shelf? ... She wanted it to be lead by the spirit."

I will try to get to where Flagg wanted to go, but without the ad hominem ,,. Are you suggesting that CNY's participation/sign-up issues would be solved with a little call to big brother? Or are you suggesting big brother would shut him down in a heartbeat, so he should throw in the towel? National publishes a fluff piece on family camping never suggesting things like mentoring or contacting their council/district for a list of Cub Scout family camping events. That might actually help a family camp more. I just don't get the condescending attitude.

Welcome to my world. The second worse thing I've experienced as a scouter was having to tell young women that a trip was not available to them for lack of moms to go backpacking with them. That was before I joined the council venturing committee and learned to build a depth chart: women from other units, older sisters, college age Girl Scout leaders, former venturers, friendships from Wood Badge, nuns, single women, ex-military, scout moms whose boys no longer wanted them around, etc ... Yes, it felt weird being a middle aged married guy propositioning women to come for a weekend in the back country, but if it was a choice between weird or rejecting, l could get used to the wierd. As to the girls affected, mine came up with a plan B for the following week and recruited two moms.

Welcome, and thanks for all you do for the boys!

The first an second "more program" proposals expect too much from already beleaguered programs. The third sounds like fun. I like fun. That's really the only reason I favor it. Well that, and I think our nation needs more youth enthused about living by the scout oath and law, and my instincts tell me that could be better obtained in mixed troops in some communities. Single-sex troops in others. It's a big country. But that is not without conditions ... I'm not willing to loose good scouters in the process. If good scouters go, so will good scouts. Proponents of #3 sometimes make their case by casting aspersions on the few boy scout organizations in WOSM. That makes me question their objectivity. Pakistan's numbers have doubled in two decades. Saudi's have gone from zero to something formidable. Folks who are dismissive of those facts are asking me to ignore scouters who are open about their biases and regard scouters who are blind to them. I find that position untenable.

I don't think the crew does the event. 4CS leads a crew that happens to be affiliated with a troop, and the troop does the event. Nevertheless, these things work best, and everyone has the most fun, when the boys call around and ask for adults to help with tasks they specify. You get the boys asking, "What can we do ourselves?" and "Who can help us with what we can't do?"

Well some of us want it to change, but we also really like our fellow scouters who don't.

Share? It is entirely the unit's fault. (I'm including mine here.) For example, I can't possibly give you the benchmark for your Librarian. I don't know what your space is like, how much literature you purchase, what the hand-me-down culture is of your scouts, your proximity to the scout-shop, you budget for a half-dozen electronic tablets, if you're all about the paper, if you need to build shelves, or lockers, or mobile storage with solar panels for recharging. Maybe you need a bevy of pamphlets. Maybe you need sheet music for your buglers and musicians. Maybe your honor guard needs a collection of historic flag pamphlets. I don't know. If I don't know any of that, how is National gonna possibly know? Figure out your own stinking benchmarks. Set them. I've said the SPL's job isn't hard, really the only tough thing is asking others to do what you think is their job, and reviewing with them afterward in an affirming way. For example, based on discussions with the PLC and JASMs who've "been there, done that," the SPL should want the library to look a certain way. If it doesn't after a couple weeks, he asks the Librarian "Would you like to discuss it with the SM? Or, can I team you up with a JASM who had your job once? Just for this month?" Oh, that's right, folks don't hand out JASM patches any more because, they bad-mouth older boys who sit around and don't do much but reminisce about "good old days" and "here's how it was done in my time." Then SM's complain that they can't keep track of all of the expectations on these dozens of PoR's. Bottom line: expect more of your PoR's. Read the words on the patch. Ask the boys how the troop would look and feel if someone was living up to those words by putting in an hour of work every week. Go there.

@@MomWhoCamps, was it AHG that you parted ways with? This is really important because as recently as last year, I've heard their national representatives on the media of their target audience promoting their brand. But that won't give us the "boots on the ground" view that parents of grade-schoolers need to know before committing hundreds of hours to a group. If you don't want to clutter this thread with "old bones", you might want to pick up where we left off here: http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/24464-american-heritage-girls-question/?p=364721 or here: http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/21481-partnership-opportunities-between-bsa-and-ahg/ As to your question, I haven't heard of many inquiries. Among parents locally. (Although I am on the cusp of being a generation removed, as I point out regularly to the DIL. )

By the way, you could also play this same game with smart phones. Each patrol prepares a large totem and is given an hour to relocate it to a cool location. They text back the coordinates to the SPL, who then compiles them and group texts the list of locations to each PL's communications officer. Each PL then charts a course to the other totems, the goal being to take a picture of their flag beside each totem (or, what they think is the other patrol's totem ). The PL communicates his hike plan back to HQ for SM approval. This could also be done using a shared map like in CalTopo.com. Train your webmaster in KML format, and upload. SPL's and JASM's may occupy their time placing decoy totems along the designated travel paths. (Those of you who've run in multi-level club courses know that one course's control is another's decoy.) Or, depending on the range you want to cover, providing dead-drops of lunch, etc ...

One way that I did it for venturers (should work for a bunch of patrols as well): A dry-lock container, gps, tongue depressors, stickers, glue and notebook for each patrol, material for stamps/stencils, ... Train the boys in using the GPS and marking way-points. Be clear about property boundaries and "no go" areas. Have each patrol assemble a cache, the swag will be tongue depressor totems colored with the patrol symbols. (Needless to say, if your scouts are good at mass-producing some other craft, have at it!) Include a notebook. Have each patrol make a stamp or stencil. (For signing the other patrols' notebooks.) Each patrol, then gets an index card and a GPS and hides their cache. They write their patrol name, the coords., and a hint on the index card. They come back to your HQ. First patrol turns their card in and gets the card of the next patrol to come in, etc ... Patrols hunt the cache on the card they pick up from HQ. Pick up swag. Stamp the notebook, and return for another card. HQ can get a little crazy toward the end while patrols wait for the return of a card for a cache they haven't found. The goal is to end the day with swag from each patrol, and a stamp from every other patrol in your patrol's cache notebook. You can usually get in a couple of rounds of hide-and-seek throughout the day. The stamps should be prepared the day before (hint: wood carving MB). If you'd rather not go with stamps and notebooks, you could try having the patrols make "drop-off" swag, but that gets confusing. Pro tip: have spare batteries and back-up GPS!

I believe we've had fewer kerfuffles. BUT, as a consequence of internet advancement, national has asked councils to take on a "big brother" role over advancement tracking using existing staff. That includes time spent training volunteers in using the system correctly. Needless to say, without added staff (or more often, with reduced staff), if there is more work to be done making IA work and ensuring YPT is ubiquitous, there is less work for recruitment and program building.

Some positions are indeed more "short-stop" than others. You only notice them when a line drive skips to left field. This is why I prefer SMs and SPLs to be vision oriented. How do they want the library to look? How should dues be collected? What events should have a bugler/honor guard? What should our quarters look like? What should the paperwork look like for each event? What needs to be on our website? When? Then, the follow-up question: Who's gonna make it look that way? Or, if there's a boy in mind: Mr. __ can you make __ look better? If they picture where things need to be, once they own a task, the SPL can hold them to that vision. E.g., "Mr. __ there's a book out of place. What will your mamma think?" The SPL and ASPL's job then eventually becomes leading after action review. Depending on the boy doing the review and the boys needing to reflect on their work, you may need to coach him on style. It's no longer a question of "Did you do it?" But "Is it better?" This isn't much different than what we ask the PLs to get from their boys (or presidents from their crews): Where do we see ourselves camping? How can we get there? What do we want to eat? What's our klondike sled gonna look like? With a patrol it's not a question of "Where did you go?" But "Did you go there better than you went before?"

You got it right 'krik. But, I don't know why anyone is surprised that a candidate for Eagle and erstwhile camp staff is so articulate. Most such boys would be. We're lucky that one or two of them are willing to participate in this thread from time to time and put us in our place!

Truth? When I was a scout, librarian was harder than SPL. Lots of boys earning MBs, needing books, req changes left and right, plus volumes of Boys Life to bind, scouts forgetting to check-in and check-out ...SPL was a cake-walk. I like @@Eagledad's summary. One of the fundamental problems that I see in many schools as well as in troops, people expect less. One thing that I constantly remind scouts and parents is that PoR's aren't about leadership -- even though some happen to have "lead" in the title. They are about responsibility. There are jobs to do to make a troop great, and someone has to do them. When someone does each job (patch or no patch), the troop thrives. So, back to my example, in terms of hours, the librarian should take as much time as SPL in a larger troop. If not, you might want to consider vacating that position until you all figure out what to expect from it. I posted some other ideas on Bryan's forums: https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/forums/topic/leading-buglers/ https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/forums/topic/leading-quartermasters/ Finally, the method in boy scouting is called "leadership development" for a reason ... boys should start with barely getting a job done themselves and end up getting his buddies involved in helping him do a bang-up job. I was just discussing tonight with the SM and CC about how some SPLs start with more disadvantages than others.

Congratulations! Some simple-minded pointers ... The SPL assigns positions (except PL's) with your advice ... so keep him in the loop. If he so much as makes an ugly face at a name you bring up, ask why he's hesitant, respect his opinion, and see if you all can figure out a better way to work with that boy. Ignore rank patches. He who does the work holds the PoR patch. E.g., if nobody is actually organizing MB pamphlets, and nobody else cares, don't assign a librarian. But, if there is one second class scout always sweeping out the trailer or demanding that cook kits come back polished. Support the SPL by not forcing him to pick a Librarian, but encourage him to recruit that sweeper for QM. A scout is allowed to ask for help if a job is too hard for him. But if he doesn't ask, and the job doesn't get done, then you need to ask him to reconsider holding his PoR until his ready to do the work. Try to get 1st Class Scouts to choose the position they think they will do best. If one doesn't think he'll do anything well say, "Okay, let's talk about it a couple months." Don't forget the option of assigning service projects. Some boys just do better if they have one big task to work on over the course of a few weeks, rather than the laundry list of tasks that come with PoRs.

Well, that is why you need to talk to your SM. We don't know the people in your troop or district, and he may have had to deal with issues in the past that would want him to send you to a non-parent. No SM or Advisor likes to get a phone call from the council registrar questioning their scout's rank application. My first post on this forum once upon a time was about our registrar challenging Son #1's position as a crew president on his eagle application because he was filing the application through his troop. When the boy's SM heard about it, he went livid until I told him a call to national then and there corrected the staffs' assumptions. On the other hand, your SM may have been wanting your mom to be a cycling MBC for a while. And, even if you don't need to have her counsel you for this badge (we cleared that up in my previous reply), you're just the "excuse" he needs to get her signed up so that other boys will have someone he trusts available to counsel them. Honestly, you won't know until you ask him his opinion. And despite all of the rule parsing (which we will no doubt continue long after you make rank), respecting his opinion is probably the most efficient way to knock out this badge.

Oh, the 60s in the heartland! If your friend could drum up some sources (newspaper clippings, a photo, etc...), this could make for a neat topic in the Scouting History forum.

One caveat, troops sometimes do make specific rules against it. Sons' troop insisted that no more than three, and no more than one non-required could be earned from a parent. In our case, that was because our district advancement chair said he questioned any set of blue cards with similar signatures that matched the boy's last name. So, check with your SM. If it's a problem and your mom can't be your counselor, there's no reason she can't do that 50 miler with you. You could treat her to a nice lunch somewhere 25 miles away, then swing by the counselor's house on your way back to get that blue card signed.