BadenP

Barry it must be nice to view the world through rose colored glasses. The truth is what you claim may be the ideal but it is not the reality of the human condition. Simplistic platitudes like "who has the biggest stick", do little in getting to the root of the problem. I agree with you that the BSA should have morals as part of the program of developing good scouts, but the DRP and BSA definition of what religion is acceptable is more derisive and narrow than it should be. Are you claiming that the true source of morality is the Christian faith? If so then you are denigrating all the other faith traditions.

Sorry Barry What happened with Canadian scouting and CampFire was not about religion but more about a lack of vision and incompetent management internally. I never said do away with religion entirely but rather tone it down from "you better be or else" mentality to a more generic stance. The Methodist Church did not give huge money to the BSA, but contributed to their own organization to promote scouting within the Methodist Church, which is fine cuz thats what the Catholics and Lutherans do as well. Secondly do you really think morality only exsists within the confines of religion? Take a look at ancient and modern Christian history and you will find some of the most immoral acts ever committed on humanity in large numbers, done in the name of God. Your argument is not a tenable or logical one. Morality in order to thrive or survive has to be an interwoven and deeply integrated part of a culture, not just preached from a pulpit for half an hour on Sunday.

scoutldr, You got to be kidding, outside of the LDS church no religious group provides large financial support to the BSA. While they may be CO's thats about as far as it goes. I still say without the 12 point of the scout law and the DRP you would even see a large increase in membership. Those CO's that are churches could still pontificate to their members, but you might be surprised by just how few would even be upset by dropping the DRP. Anyhow it is time for the BSA to find other great organizations to become sponsors, especially if they are serious about still being around in 50 or 100 years from now. Religion in the BSA should be limited to a general definition and not promoting the beliefs of a single group or denomination of believers.

I just went to South Parks website to see the preview with Stan and his dad working on the car in the basement, it looked pretty much right on to me, and Stan was in his webelos uniform. The episode they did a while back about the gay scoutmaster who was replaced by one who was a pedophile found a humorous way to present two serious issues scouting faces today. Yes they are irreverant, pushing the line to the limit, yet at the same time gives you something to think about.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Sometmes I think that the whole scouting program would run a whole lot smoother and be a whole lot more welcoming if both the 12th point of the scout law and the DRP would just be eliminated from all BSA materials. Change the 12th point of the scout law to read "Respectful", to respect others different from myself, and to respect the beauty and sanctity of nature. Just my 2cents worth.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Narraticong Just a technical point the 10 Commandments were firstly and exclusively given directly to the Jews from God via Moses, not the Christians, so you are in essence blending Judaism with your Christianity. The Old Testament, now more correctly referred to as the Hebrew Scriptures were written to guide God's chosen people through times of turmoil and were written more as historical accounts and instruction manuals for Jewish worship, like Leviticus written for the priestly caste, dietary rules written for the Jewish masses, etc.. All modern Christian denominations are a blending of faiths throughout history like it or not, it is a branch of Jesses Tree, not the trunk itself, something we all need to remember.

Narraticong What I suggested is true capitalism, what you are suggesting resembles socialism. First of all the marketplace is not equal, it never has been or ever will be so you have to structure your company to be able to manipulate your product to the top of the rest by offering what others do not. For example, quality and durability of products is something sorely lacking in todays marketplace, if by charging a little more than your competitors you can insure your customers something will work better and last longer they will pay more money for your product. If you cut corners, use cheap materials and your product falls apart quicker you will lose your customers, simply put people want something that is reliable, works well and they are willing to pay for it. When greedy corporate heads and greedy union officials are allowed to subvert this process, wanting more and more money for themselves and driving costs up to ridiculous levels then you have a breakdown of the system. Look at our former steel, auto, and agricultural industries, once they were thriving and now they are dead or dying. Incompetence and corruption and poor business practices are the reasons. No the playing field is not fair, but neither is business or life and you have to learn how work within the system you have and to put your customer first and they in turn will put you first with their support.

Beavah, Beavah The idea of the "strong dollar" over at least the last two decades was based on a false premise, our economy was based on the selling of technology which the rest of the world now has and no longer needs to obtain from us. In the interim what little manufacturing and agriculture remained here has all but disappeared which has been allowed because of corporate and governmental incompetence. The mentality that we do not to produce anything here because we can get it overseas cheaper has truly weakened our country economically to a point where we may never fully recover. You are right about "OIL", which due to corporate greed and government lobbyists have crippled any real development of alternate fuels for decades and has now put us behind the eight ball with our dependence on foreign oil. So what are the solutions? IMHO it is time to climb out of the hole we have dug for ourselves and to do some serious refocusing of new goals for both the corporate and governmental world in how to conduct business. We need to stop the mentality that if someone else can do it cheaper we shouldn't bother developing it ourselves. It is time for Americans obsession for owning all the latest gadgets, SUV's, etc., etc., to end. If we don't all work towards rebuilding a strong economy with a better quality of life available to all who will work for it then this recession will continue to worsen, eventually the economy here and abroad will collapse and anarchy will result. The thing is we have the power and ability to reverse all of that unless we choose to do nothing as a country.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

So Nattirong since you feel its not a "level playing field" America should not even try to compete, sounds like a fatalistic copout to me and thats not the attitude that made our country great. Doing nothing about this crisis over the last 20+ years is why we are in the mess we are in today economically. We convinced ourselves that an economy based mainly on selling technology and services could sustain itself, and now that balloon has burst. Remember that old ad, Take Pride in America, Made in the USA , that what we need to do today just fixing roads and bridges isn't enough to restore our economy we need to start making things again, not the cheapest but the best quality to be had anywhere in the world. When and If we can do that, and when the world market starts to demand American made goods again we will be on a solid road to economic prosperity once again.

What you pro China scouters seem to forget is that we has a country have allowed vital manufacturing industries in the USA, as well as agriculture, to all but disappear due to overly greedy unions and greedy corporate heads to stuff their pockets overseas. Have you seen the latest stats, USA has a 600+ billion trade deficit compared with France, Germany, Japan, and China all who have from a 20 - 100 billion dollar trade surpluses. We are rapidly becoming a second rate country and if we can't manufacture anything competitively anymore that we and the world market want then no economic bailout plan will ever be able to restore our economy for the longterm. We have lost over a billion jobs in this country, we don't make anything much anymore, and Mexico and South America outproduce us in agricultual products and exports better than 4 to 1. Prospects for the future are not looking promising either. So maybe when we are all standing in breadlines unemployed and China becomes the new global economic power you guys can all say well at least we got our scout uniforms cheaper, time to wake up and smell the coffee people. We need to rebuild our former major industries and agriculture so that we can become the economic leader of the world producing the best quality products, anything less is nothing more than a road to nowhere.

Calico, your statements about the Catholic Church of the 1200's are not only inaccurate but outright untrue, where on earth did you find that cr*p anyway. Read the book called The Age of Faith, it will help you understand what really was going on back then not a bunch of bunk that you are proliferating here. In medieval Europe the Catholic Church was the center of each town, they provided education, medicine, and legal authority. The marriage ceremony comes from very early times and cultures and has been modified in every culture throughout time, the Church turned it into a sacrament, something sacred, because it was a central and important stage in a persons life. The reason priests do not get married is because it was a custom set by the Bishops of each region. Prior to the Council of Trent Bishops did get married and when their widows starting suing the Church for support the Pope decreed the celibacy rule so that all property remained with the Church, and in turn the bishops required their priests to be celebate. Priests of that time took vows of poverty and could NOT own any personal property of their own anyway so your explaination of marriage is just plain bogus.

Kudu As you know I usually agree with you about many skill sets that the scouting program has lost over the years, however in this case I am sure someone added that line. The wording, "at the whim..." sounds amateurish and unprofessional and I am sure this is an individual trying to inject his own beliefs into the training. You should have nailed it right then at the training and maybe the guy would have backed down and that line would have been crossed out on the spot. If more volunteers do not question these type of whacko notions that sometimes come up in training sessions than the misinformation perpetuates itself and poor leadership is the result. Always question something you know is obviously false, if the instructor can not give you a credible answer then he has no business teaching the course.

I agree that this policy is a sad commentary, while I don't necessarily agree with 13 year old Eagles, this type of restriction is simply unacceptable. Further I think that any troop leadership endorsing these type of rules should be subject to sanctions from the council for violating the terms of their charter, and not following the rules set down by National regarding the advancement path to Eagle.

Even with all this great advice it saddens and sickens me that any boy should have to go through all this political cr*p because of some ego trip by one or more adult scouters. Some may argue that this experience will help build the boys maturity, but I see it as poor quality leadership that seems to be permeating the scouting program these days. Unfortunately these type of occurences seem to be on the increase. Ms. Summer I truly hope your son gets his Eagle, good luck. If necessary use all the appeals at your disposal. After this is all over I really hope the council executive sends a strong letter to that scoutmaster reminding him what being a scouter is truly all about.

la voyageur All I can say is that was a baaaeautiful film, just baaaeautiful.

mdsummer45 You have been given some great advice already and I concur, go to your district people ASAP even before the committee meeting, maybe your DAC can also attend. If this still fails get your DE involved. When I was a DE I had a similiar incident occur in my district, so I, the District Chair, and District Commissioner met the scoutmaster over coffee and discussed the problems on both ends and resolved the issues. The boy had his conference, EBOR, and was able to attend the World Jamboree as an Eagle scout. Bottom line, exhaust all your support people first then bring in the big guns. Sometimes there are scouters out there that need to be reminded that we are in this for the boys first and formost, not for our own petty power trips and glorification.

Touche Eamonn! However Stosh did an eloquent job explaining where the weakness in Venturing is as well as its strengths. You are right many crews are indeed small and many of those are LDS units, nuff said. The other small crews for the most part are what Stosh describes as "super scouts" and many of them do fail in the first year. The problem in Venturing is not the program as much as it is administered by the council, and the leaders who are former scoutmasters who can not think outside the box. Uniforms and advancement are not methods in Venturing and thats where many current scouters have a problem in making the transition to a crew leader. We are fortunate in our council to have adults who can think outside the box and our venturing program is thriving. You know the saying, "you can't teach an old dog new tricks", well some scouters are never able to make the transition to what Venturing is suppossed to be instead they impose their own vision of what they want it to be and then wonder why their crew fails. So I say again it is not the program that is at fault it is the way it is being subverted by some of those in charge of administering it in the field. There are many councils where Venturing is not only growing but surpassing boy scout troops in number of units, my own council is one of them.

Boy I guess someone didn't take his cranky pill today, lol. Eamonn I have been involved with venturing on a local level and regional level for many years now, and boy scouts and cub scouts before that, and have seen many excellent crews, and some not so great, one of the keys is the councils involvement in the program and the quality of training provided to the leaders. Another key is to break this idea that because someone was a scoutmaster that he automatically will be a great crew leader, that is not necessarily the case. Additionally the idea that there is a natural progression from boy scouts to venturing, which is not necessarily the case,is also not true it depends on the type of crew. Now you are welcome to go on and on about what a lousy program venturing is in your opinion, especially in your own council but what you state simply is not true for the entire venturing program nationwide.

First of all Eamonn what you describe as Venturing in your council simply isn't. Our crews and ships do joint activities throughout the year, I think the problem with your ship is that the membership has been small, from your past posts, and now they think of themselves as some sort of elite club, which venturing is not. The problem with many crews is that the adults do not let the teens have any control and try to run it like a troop, that is not venturing. The first year is the crucial one for the crew, you first ask the officers to set three easy to obtain goals for the year, activities, membership, one long trip, and three long term goals. After the first year the teens get how to sucessfully plan an execute an activity, by the second year the crew I advised was raring to go now in its sixth year we have over 60 teens and a very prosperous coed crew. Venturing works if you toss away all those boy scout habits and let the program work as it was meant to be.

OGE when a former scout or scouter turns professional the dark force is indeed strong and try as you might you can not please everyone or to put it another way you can not serve two masters. So the result is you either get frustrated and leave after some years or you give yourself over to the darkside and in 40 years become Chief Scout Executive aka the Sith Master, lol. As far as the "This is Scouting" course I too agree that is a nice overview but lacks the in depth information a new leader should have starting out.

Mark, what you say is very true however I was referring the kind of basics that never become outdated, things like core scouting values and methods, aims, and purposes. If we try to appeal to every boy out there by ignoring some of these things, like the outdoor method for example that Mazzuca went on and on about with Hispanic youth, the scouting program then becomes diluted and lessened, and then we have to ask is it even still scouting or just another generic youth group. National really only looks at or cares about numbers and money to measure success and I would hate to see them sacrifice essential facets of the scouting program to achieve those goals.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

I was reading a Scoutmasters Handbook last night from 1967, in the first three pages it does an excellent summary of what scouting is supposed to be about, its methods and purposes and fun, which I would heartily recommend that everyone in the National office should be required to read before they come up with these ridiculous policy changes. I guess I have to agree with Kudu, there is a lot of wisdom in the older handbooks which has been lost or forgotten over the years, maybe it is time to reincorporate some of it back into todays handbooks and trainings.

Brent I agree with you 100% National CAN NOT stop a group of teens from going hiking/camping on their own accord. If this policy change is true then I do think that Mazzuca is dealing yet another severe blow to the program, as some said earlier how are we going to get boys to become good leaders if National is now saying that they do not trust them with responsibility and leadership. Personally I bet this is yet another way Mazzuca thinks he can bring these momma boys who have never spent a night away from home into scouting, what a waste.

Beavah, Your idea about uniforms is the best I have heard yet. emb021, I don't assume, the incorrect information in your posts speaks for itself.

I hear what is being said and I agree, in my state they are closing almost all of the state parks because of budget problems, several of which were favorite scout camping spots. Our council is only opening one camp this summer because of budget shortfall and has laid off staff in the office. Our 2010 anniversary event is also being cut back due to declining income. So where does it end, the council office is not a very happy place to visit these days and the roundtables have become little more than big gripe sessions. After 100 years Scouting really does need to be highlighted much more than it is by National showing the public what an integral part of our society it truly is. Instead we have Mazzuca preaching to the press that if we do not cater to the Hispanic cultures with his new outreach programs that scouting could wither away. Maybe it is time to let the volunteers start running the programs again instead of overpaid scout executives. Like Kudu has said in the past, it is time to get back to the basics.