BadenP

Eamonns last point in his post about sending his boy out with a uniform costing under $100 brings up a valid point. There should be an inexpensive casual style uniform for camping and summer camp, and outdoor activity purposes costing less than $50. The dress uniform could then be reserved for meetings, ceremonies, and other special functions only, eliminating the chance of it becoming ruined at camp. Why does a boy have to be in full dress uniform at summer camp anyway, what purpose does it really serve when a leisure uniform would serve the same purpose? Some old timers will say its because thats the way it has always been done which is plain nonsense, it really is due to the fact that it feeds some leaders egos to parade his boys around like his private platoon, they can't seem to think outside the box. Some who quote the uniform method don't really seem to understand it anyway.

Sorry Neil but I think you are giving mdsummer false hope. National will not even consider overiding a council SE unless they believe he is part of the problem, which is not the case here. If the boy could produce evidence to put the SM in a prejudicial light it would have already been submitted. Sending in a laundry list of why he feels he deserves Eagle is not sufficent enough to get National to overide an SE's decision, there has to be proof of collusion among all parties involved which again is not the case here. The only way the boy has a chance of a review by National is for him to get a letter from the council SE stating that there were many irregularities in this process and that this case warrants a review, if he will not agree to that then this case is over and National will side with the SE. I know and have dealt with this appeal process twice during my time as a DE and know that National will not even consider an appeal without a recommendation from the SE.

It all comes down to having/hiring an experienced and competent WW riverguide to eliminate all of these problems, a council position is not only a bad idea but an expensive luxury few councils could afford. IMHO, anything over a Class 3 should require the unit to have a licensed guide accompany them.

Eamonn Old Man Time comes for all of us in the end, it is also natures clue to us that we need to make way for the next generation to take the lead, and for us to start to settle back a bit more. Heck nowadays 40 is considered over the hill and thats the age of many Michael Jackson fans, go figure.

mdsummer As a former SM and DE something here still seems off. I have to agree with Beavah that the procedures have been followed and the district and council would have quickly overridden the SM if they found evidence of a vendetta against your son. To be quite honest if the council doesn't back you up National will not override the council SE's decision. You would have to supply solid evidence that the SM, district, and council all were not competent in the handling of this case. I am sorry that your son has had to go through all of this, its a lousy way to end your scouting experience.

I think most of you uniform police forget that in the early decades of scouting that a full uniform was a rarity due to the tough economic times, but it didn't seem to bother Baden Powell, Dan Beard, or Ernest Seton, they were all concerned for the welfare of the boys over ANYTHING else. I would rather have a boy in my troop wear whatever pieces of a uniform he owned then no uniform. One boy in my troop when I was a SM came from an extremely poor family and the only uniform he had was his dads old green uniform shirt and campaign hat, which by the way were always crystal clean and pressed. That kid was so proud and the other boys never teased him about it. Every badge he earned he sewed himself on that shirt, but after a year and a half he had earned enough to buy the correct shirt and pants. At the COH where he was presented his 1st class badge he came in wearing his new uniform smiling and when he was presented his badge with his parents up there with him he reached over and picked up that old olive green shirt with all his patchs sewn on and presented it to his mom and dad saying that it was because of their support that he had enjoyed scouting so much. So to all you uniform police out there quote all the uniform policies you want because when it comes to what scouting is truly all about they don't mean a thing, so get over it already.

Lexington, If your crew members personal outdoor experiences have been limited that would be a great idea, but then again most Philmont Treks really are not for novices to the outdoors. It sounds like your crew is high adventure however so topics like LNT, wilderness first aid, and others would be appropriate. The Bronze award in Outdoors for the most part is pretty basic stuff, but it is the lead in to the Ranger Award which would be a worthwhile goal for your crew. In any case remember it is the crews decision, we are Advisors not Scoutmasters, and have a great time at Philmont. I loved Philmont every time I have been there and I know you and your crew will to.

This is really a moot point at this point in time. National WILL NOT reverse the district/council decisions unless there was a blatant abuse of the rules and procedures in place for advancement, and that's a fact. As I pointed out earlier when I was a DE I had a similiar type of situation occur, the boy met with the district Key 3, the SM, Adv Chair and the whole situation was handled in about an hour to everyones satisfaction. I agree with ED that there is some crucial information missing here because this situation should never have become the mess it has. While I feel sorry for the boy if the appropriate committees and the council do not believe he deserves the Eagle then thats that and it is time for the boy and parent to move on. There is more to life than being an Eagle Scout and he still has all of his scouting experiences and achievements to be proud of.

Hikeing god, I don't know if you have ever been to Philmont before but hiking songs are the last thing you will need there, the beauty of nature will be the ultimate high and experience for any and all of your boys, believe me. Kudu my friend why are you being so unscoutlike in your posts? Many of us agree with you about Mazzuca's recent statements about scoutings priorities, especially me who worked for the guy when he was an SE. When you try to make a point by derailing and insulting instead of informative and logical alternatives your argument looses all credibility.

CNY We have had Wilderness First Aid, Wilderness Cooking, How to run a co-ed crew, Class on Ranger, Quest, and Trust Awards, Kodiak, VLSC, to name but a few. Any class that focuses in greater detail on any aspect of Venturing only touched on in Basic usually attracts a lot of interest.

I think Eamonn that Trust needs to be earned not freely given. When a group of boys get together the dominant ones tend to take control of the entire group both good and bad, I am sure you have read Lord of the Flies. The high tech world of today opens up all sort of temptations to our youth that were not accessible when we were that young, and boys 12-18 are little more than a bunch of raging hormones who act first and think about the consequences later. Gunny if you pass all of your responsibilities off on the boys what kind of example do you think you are modeling? I will give you a hint, not a good one.

The idea that adult leaders can really supervise every boys computer games on a trip is just plain ludicrous. Nowadays most of these games contain innappropriate content, so where do you draw the line, shooting prostitutes in Grand Theft Auto or wiping out bystanders in some of the other games? The problem is that boys will be boys and if you allow these type of events on camping trips one or more will take advantage and play these MA games right under your nose or in some area out of sight, and thats just a fact. The problem is that too many scouters are too lazy to plan an evening campfire program of constructive activities and these games are like babysitters for them so they can go off to shoot the bull, drink coffee and smoke, a similiar problem in our high tech culture today.

zdl, Except for Eagle92 the rest of the advice here is from outsiders looking in, some good some unrealistic. As a former DE for almost five years I can tell you firsthand that it is both a rewarding and at the same time one of the most frustrating careers you will ever have. It boils down to the quality of the SE and FD in your council, some are great while others are not worth spit. My advice to you is to ask a lot of questions like why did the last DE leave, what shape is the district in that you will be working, and the economic condition of the council itself, this will save you a lot of headaches later. Be aware when you head off to training, PDL, you might be discouraged by the way they push numbers and money as your ONLY priorities and really downplay getting too involved with volunteers and district activities. Another unsavory aspect of the position is that National expects to move you every 3-5 years to a new council. You work a lot of hours, easily over 80 a week, and have very few weekends off. For a family guy this will put a lot of strain on your marriage and family. All that being said there are parts of the job you will love and will miss when you move on. If you have a very patient wife who doesn't mind you being away many nights and weekends, getting cornered in restaraunts, stores, etc., by volunteers asking your advice with their problems then by all means give it a try. It is indeed one of the most unique experiences you will ever have in your career. Good Luck.

This thread started out as trying to be helpful and has wound up becoming absurd lunacy. This one situation is getting more attention than a Supreme Court case, its time for you people to let go and get back to your scouting units since NOTHING you decide here is going to have any bearing on what will happen whatsoever. The sad part is you only know one side of the story and you all are trying to come off as all knowing experts, especially the Beavah. Don't you all have something more important to do?

Thank you Dean for pointing out the hypocrisy and contradictions in the GSS and National. This has never been about breaking scouting rules its about the inconsistency and illogical policies the BSA makes and then adjusts them to fit a "PR" moment. So enough dribble already about teaching scouts to break the scout law concerning laser tag, waterguns etc,, because it is just plain untrue and nothing more than a load of cr*p put out by a National employee on a power trip. So for you scouters who can't see the forest thru the trees get over yourselves already.

You are very right Eagle 92 but they decided to go less formal, no uniforms or ranks, and just sail/kayak for the fun of it.

I agree with you Kahuna, sadly the last two sea scout ships(power boats)in our council announced last night at RT that they were shutting down due to the tough economic times, the expense of maintaining the boats and the fuel costs. One group is going to reorganize as a venturing crew with emphasis on small sailboats and kayaking, but I it looks like the days of traditional sea scouting is over in our council. The skippers of both ships were going to step down in June, both of whom were avid seamen and Navy veterans. We are going to miss them and their sea scouts at our council and district functions.

I have to agree with Beavah, these places are closely supervised and the kids are probably safer than if they went out on a hike with the troop. It may be prohibited by the GSS but the logic is faulty and there is no danger to the participants. Make it an unofficial gathering and don't sweat it, or you can have them "throw metal tomahawks at each other" instead, lets get a grip on reality here.

The problem is Pete that if you allow electronic devices on trips there is instant access to porno sites for those boys who think they are getting away with something. One idea is when you get to the campsite have the boys turn over all their electronics to you for the duration, if you have a solid program planned they really shouldn't need them anyway. In the evening you can, if you want, let the boys have an hour or two with their electronics but then have them turn them back to you. If they have an emergency or need to check in at home you can make exceptions. I have done this as a scoutmaster and crew advisor and we have NEVER had a problem and the kids seem to be more focused on the activities and less on the electronic dependency.

snip snip scoutldr, lol. You could say the same thing about jambo as well, after all its just a photo op and publicity shot for National isn't it? I have been to the National Jamboree twice in my scouter career and loved it both times, it truly is a uniquely awesome experience. I agree with you about Giada and Rachael Ray, you could just see them in their tiny scout shirts and shorts telling the boys how to prepare a meal, the boys hormones raging, and the uniform police going crazy over improper wearing of the uniform, lol. Sounds like fun to me.

Eamonn What you describe seems to be common with the current generation of parents with boys of scout age. They are the rebels who will not be told what to do and the more you try the worse they become. What it comes down to is are you willing to give them their freedom, within reason, tolerate their less than stellar methodology or not. If you try to act like their boss they will reject you as leader and pull a power takeover. The best you can do is set the example and hope they follow, if they refuse than your only option is to find another unit or take a district or council position.

I would be more interested to understand why they were embarrassed, was it being in uniform in public or they felt scouting was not something cool or are they scouts in name only? All or any of these reasons signal a much deeper problem within the troop structure, leadership, or troop program. You need to have your UC observe and critique your troop, but be ready for criticism and some brutal honesty. There is much more here than not marching in some parade.

Stosh The only reason W got re-elected was he had 4 years to instill fear in the public that everyone was out to kill all Americans, the same kind of tactics Osama and Sadam used with their own people. Our country lived in fear during W's reign. ASM What a bunch of nonsense and prattle, terrorist attacks started with airplane hijackings of the 1970's, they are not new and unfortunately part of life. Remember Tim McVey who blew up the federal building in Oklahoma, he was nothing but a homegrown country boy, much like yourself. The point is there will always be those who will hate us and strike out at us, and we will never be able to wipe them all out. With our troops and federal agencies overextended overseas we look more vulnerable to a lot of crazy idiots out there, but your insistent fear mongering does NOTHING to allieviate the problem. So live your life in fear if you must, by the way how is life in your backyard bomb shelter, lol.

Buffalo Skipper I think I understood pj's post just fine, as he stated the "skipper must act like a CO because it is required under maritime law." It is like an adult letting a 14 year old drive a car without supervision, you are just asking for trouble, and I am sure the same goes in sea scouts and some of the larger power boats they use.

Gee ASM I see you are another fear mongerer with unsubstantiated claims holdover of the Bush regime. Get a reality check buddy, your intel is way off base, kinda like WOMD claims that were never substantiated by your hero and has cost this country over 4,000 lives. I guess you can always hide in your backyard bomb shelter, lol.