BadenP

LisaBob I agree with you 100% most adult leaders will not bother to stand up to a bully parent and will allow a kid to slide by. I think another reason this occurs is that very few adult scoutmasters bring a full skill set to the program, even after attending all the training, and they need to surround themselves with ASM's who do have those other needed skills to help present a solid program to the boys. It is rather simplistic to state that the scoutmaster is solely responsible for the program advancement, that is why you have ASM's, troop committees to help with the delivery and reinforcement of a quality program. A scoutmaster is a person who is a volunteer that is volunteering their time because they believe in what scouting stands for. A scoutmaster is not supposed to be a petty dictator or someone alone on a deserted island trying to figure out how to survive on their own. In both of these scenarios the resulting troop will surely fail. A good scoutmaster is one who is solidly supported by a cadre of excellent adults who bring a myriad of skill sets to help deliver the program, and reinforces with each boy that all rank badges are earned and are symbols of mastering a set of skills they are not just given out because you show up and give minimal to no effort. Using the scouting program is also vital to a troops success, the problem is in many troops scoutmasters, due to poor training methods in more than a few councils, are not well prepared to deliver this program on their own. Merit badge mills and Eagle mill troops are signs of lazy adult leadership who have no vision or ability to develop a program that will develop their youth into the leaders of the future.

In my own experience I have had very few 13 year old scouts ready for Eagle, and what is the real motivation for pushing the boys too fast. On the parents side I feel it is because many are afraid that by 14 the boy will grow bored with scouting and drop out of scouting. Then the question becomes who really is the boy earning Eagle for himself or mom and dad? I have seen the rise in numbers of troops that are little more than Eagle mills and I have to ask myself what have we adults done to the spirit and purposes of scouting? We have moved so far away from our roots that I feel that National really has lost focus on what scouting should be not only in words but in the experiences every boy should have while in scouts. In another thread a scouter mentioned that WoodBadge has become nothing more than an organizational management class and after attending both the former and current versions I would have to agree to a large extent. Now the same could be said for the boys program, and I have to agree with those like Kudu who are not too impressed with Mazzuca's plan for the future of the BSA, but only time will be able to answer that question.

SR540 I am just curious do you have a degree in theology or are you are just repeating something you were told or read by another misinformed soul. The quote "the wages of sin is death" in the Bible can be taken out of context and twisted to mean anything you want, you need to read the entire scripture this quote comes from and have a good understanding of the stylized prose the biblical writers wrote with before you can make such generalized statements.

Even if Birkby was hired to write a new handbook that does not give him or National carte blanche to misquote BP and mess with the original scouting principles set down by the founder, to me it represents a serious lack of ethics on Birkby's part as well as National, since they approved this malicious type of editing. The last two editions of the scout handbook, IMHO leave a lot to be desired anyway presenting a seriously watered down program, and if Kudu's assertions are correct makes Birkby nothing more than a hack.

I am just curious is your boy earning these badges because he is enjoying the process or is mom and dad pushing him too far too fast? Forgive me but your posts make it sound like this is you wanting the award more than he does, maybe he is listening to his leaders about pacing himself and it sounds like he has been put through the merit badge mill grinder. Scouting is not all about how many badges he earns but what type of leader and well grounded person he becomes. Stop the pushing, he has plenty of time to make Eagle, let him enjoy his scouting experience instead.

You know its sad that this continues to be a problem in scouting, adults who fight instead of delivering a quality program to the boys. One reason is that some adults when they become a SM or CM think that they are somehow infallible and want everything their way. This results from poor or no training and a real lack of unit commissioners who could normally nip this in the bud. Now what should a parent do? IMHO present your complaints to the troop committee one time and tell them you want to see some action taken. If they do nothing you have no choice but to move your boy to a new unit, it is not your responsibility to try and reshape the troops leadership, that belongs to the committee. The needs of your boy is your only responsibility and while he may not want to switch once he is in a properly run troop with a great program his interest and enthusiasm will be back in full force. Shop around and let your boy find a good fit for him.

CNY There are no rules except you can not wear a tan shirt with blue loops since you are not a cub leader. If you want to wear your venturing uniform that will make you definitely stand out and you have to ask yourself, why do I want to do that, to promote myself or promote venturing or look at me I wear a different uniform. Some may take it as you are trying to show you are better than the other leaders. At a cub function the attention should be on the boys not the adults, it is not your program it is his and he and the other cubs should be the ones who are the focus of attention.

The National website has a new "reconnect to scouting" section where for the 100th Anniversary you can input your scouting history where it is posted and then try to connect with former friends that were in your troop or pack. Also on the national site they have a video of Mazzuca talking about the anniversary and future of scouting to a group of professional district executives which is kind of eye opening.

Ok Bob I tried, you have said nasty things about me in the past as well, very nasty things but I am willing to forget all of that. We do not have to be friends but we could at least be civil to each other from now on. Attacking each other and the others on this forum you insult is really tedious and counterproductive and it causes your points to be lost in a flurry of anger. If you really take to heart the Scout Law,which I think you do, then it is time to start being courteous, kind, helpful, and friendly to everyone on this forum.

Gee Bob In my last post on this thread I agreed with what you had posted as being correct and attempted to try to clear some confusion for Beavah. In your response you attack not only me but other well established posters here, what do you want from us? First I think we should all agree that no one person here in this forum is a true expert concerning all aspects of scouting. Second if we share our ideas and resources in a truly civil manner then we should probably come up with the correct answers most of the time. Thirdly Bob I don't discount your scouting experience like you do my own and I enjoy hearing experiences from others, even those I might disagree with, and whats happening with scouting in other parts of the country. Let you and I agree to keep our exchanges civil and respectful as two experienced scouters and at the same time show the same courtesy to others in this forum. I am willing to make this happen and I hope you will as well. No more attacks or insults just a spirited exchange of ideas, what do you say.

I think I can answer Beavah's question, you are right that all Catholic Churches are part of a diocese or archdiocese giving the bishop the authority over all Catholic churches in a given area which is for legal reasons, cannon and civil. Scouting units however are chartered to individual churches not the archdiocese and the pastor or one of his staff is usually the IH and they appoint a COR for all units that church charters. It is no different than LDS units where each ward sponsors a unit even though several or more wards may be part of the same stake. Beavah I wouldn't worry about an unfair monopoly, it has yet to be a problem all these years. Bob is technically correct that there can only be one COR for each charter organization no matter how many units they sponsor.

Well, this is my first read of this thread and Eamonn let me say this, I have tried to appeal to Bob civily in the past only to be insulted by him at every turn so I tried using his own methodology on him to no avail. Since you have a personal relationship with Bob you may not be the right person to decide either of our fates. If you do decide to ban me from this site than all I ask is that you do the same to Bob, at least then other scouters will no longer be subjected to his insults. If Bob agrees to stop his attacks on every one of my posts than I will agree to do the same with his. I would love to see Bob converse civily with all posters here. So there it is, a scout is courteous, kind, helpful, and friendly and thats what I will strive for in my postings if Bob agrees to do the same with his replies.

Bobby Try starting with the adult application form, then try new leaders essentials syllabus, then try any leader handbook and you will find out for yourself just how pathetically untrue and simplistic your argument really is. Of course you would already know your statements were faulty if you really were a real scouter. You really are a piece of work Bobby.

You are so full of your self rightgeous self Bob there is no getting thru to that narrow little mind of yours. I really do feel sorry for you, you quote from a book yet you have very little practical knowledge about what being a scouter is all about. Your pathetic attempts to denigrade me just proves to me what a little person you really are. In no way would I ever consider you to be a true scouter, if you really are one at all.

"The people wearing the wreath of service according to the BSA" quoting BW's last post as to who actually represents the BSA's policies, programs etc. All I can say Bobby is what about all the volunteers who devote countless hours helping young people grow into good and decent people, from the den leader to the scoutmaster to the venturing advisor to the district and council volunteers who not only represent whats best about BSA programs and procedures, they teach them to our youth. As a volunteer scouter for over 25 years and a professional scouter for five years I have seen both sides of the picture and I tell you that every volunteer leader is the true embodiment of scouting not just one elite group of individuals. To state otherwise is to personally insult every adult who has ever put on the uniform of a BSA volunteer.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

The GREAT BOB has spoken everyone, so rip off those patrol emblems you adult scouters cuz ur breakin the scout uniform law. Man I think a few people are getting bent out of shape for no reason here. Yes technically no patrol emblems, but who is going to play uniform police, aside from BW. Really people concentrate on quality program and stop sweating the small stuff.

Sorry you have made the decision Doc, I suggest you tough it out a little longer and get to know the people here better. Since you stated that you are a psychologist I think you might be acting a little too sensitive and misconstruing what others have said. You see this forum is kind of like "THE GAME OF LIFE" or maybe Survivor, lol especially with Bob along for the ride. Don't take anything too seriously have fun, argue, debate but remember no one person here is a true expert on anything, even though we have one self proclaimed expert, we are all here to learn, help out when we can, and have a good time. So go with the flow and you will have a good time.

Bob Both Eamonn and Beavah, as do I disagree with you, how many people have to tell you that you are wrong before you realize it. Doc refers to certificate that is produced by national supply division and has absolutely no connection to being a national commission. You are in error once again and all you are doing is confusing Doc even more. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Robert It is really too bad that you took the misinformation on commissioners given by Bob to heart because it will not help you understand what a commissioner is all about or what they really do. So believe what you like but you will see on other issues that the old saying garbage in garbage out applies when you rely on the information of just one poster who sets himself up as an official BSA spokesman.

Bobby The first line of your last post supports all I have been trying to say and refutes your own prior posts, "commissioners are registered through the local council", so as I stated earlier they are not National officers. Second, I never said anywhere that commissioners do not inform and advise BSA policies, that is exactly what they do. Commissioners are not BSA police however and should never be put in that situation, they are advisors. So you see Bob everything I stated was correct and is contained in a myriad of BSA pub's. Attacking you as you call it only comes from when you post something that is so wrong it needs to be challenged. Too many posters take what you post as gospel most of the time when in fact many times it is just plain wrong.

No Eamonn you are correct, the council commish approves the commissioners and the SE signs off on his recommendation. One reason for this is if a person is selected that does something resulting in a lawsuit the council and SE are ultimately held accountable, its like a check and balance system.

Robert What exactly did I write about commissioners that is wrong? A commissioner in a district or council is NOT commissioned by National, it does NOT give you jurisdiction anywhere in the U.S., your application is approved locally by the SE, and you must reapply for the position if you moved out of your council, so no way is it a Nationally approved commission. If you were told otherwise in training you were misinformed. You can verify this by contacting National directly if you like. Bob White was incorrect in his statements not myself.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

I do believe that Bobby White is only person who could squeeze blood out of a turnip. Man you love to twist other peoples words beyond recognition don't you Bobby. Throughout history societies have ignored rules that no longer were relevant to that group. There is a town down south where if you spit on the sidewalk it is a mandatory sentence of 30 days in jail, no one follows it or enforces it and yet it's still on the books and people choose to ignore it. In another town a mother breast feeding her baby in public can be issued a $500 citation for the first offense, again it is not enforced and the people IGNORE THE RULE, why, because they are both ridiculous laws and irrelevant to the welfare of the townspeople. I am even willing to bet in the Guide to Safe Scouting, Bobbys scouting bible, there are rules that are no longer valid, incorrectly written, or relevant and need to be updated for the welfare of the scouting program.

1) Rules are the starting point upon which a group determines its behavior. 2) No rule is above being questioned or challenged if it proves to be harmful, inadequate,or no longer relevant to that groups well being. 3) All societal rules are created by human beings who are imperfect by nature ergo the rules that are created are also subject to the same imperfection. "That is why in every society rules are reviewed, revised or eliminated as society changes and evolves because rules mirror society, society does not mirror the rules." Does anyone know who made that statement? There you go Bobby on topic just for you, oh by the way you still are wrong about sea scouts on a national level, because you once again twisted perameters. It doesn't matter what happens on your little pond in Kansas, I was talking nationally. Have a nice day Bobby.

Yah right Bob, 12 six foot dingys with sails where there was no sea scout ship is growth in your rose colored scouting world, true in your mind but not reality. You obviously do not have any power boats because the expenses you quote are way way off base,making me wonder if you really do have any real connection to any sea scout ship and once again you are twisting reality. For the record Sea Scouting, real sea scouting is on the decline nationally, anyone can check it out themselves. You see Beavah you will never get a true answer from Bobby he lives in his own world of rules, everything is black and white, and if it is not in the Guidelines to Safe Scouting then it is always wrong and dangerous so you will never win an arguement with him. Personally I don't think BW has all the experience he claims, he can quote a pub. source all he wants but most of his answers shows a real lack of experience ever leading any scout unit. Only in this forum can he pretend to be master scout of the world, lol.