BadenP

Doing nothing is NEVER the right course otherwise we would still be under British rule and have slavery in this country. If the hierarchy of the church you attended all your life decided to make some sweeping changes that you knew were wrong or way off base would you not voice your objections or would you just shut up and let it happen, or as many would do just quit the church all together. Scouting almost died out in the 1970's because some moron at National thought he had a better idea and changed the program to suit his vision, without even consulting the volunteers. Now we are faced with the Mazzuca plan to bring in the hispanic kids by changing the whole program and de-emphasize the outdoor portion all together. The same thing that happened in the late 60's- until the late 70's, Bob was a history major in college yet he seems to have forgotten the old adage, "Those who forget to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." If Mazzuca wants an hispanic program, then fine, just keep it seperate from the mainstream program, otherwise we could witness scouting dying on the vine in the USA once again.

Fortunately or unfortunately you can not officially ban photos or video at any BSA event, including OA ceremonies due to the policy of being totally open/ no secrets being official BSA policy. You can make a request before the start of the ceremony asking people to show proper respect for the ceremony and the candidates and not to take pictures, but you can't officially ban cameras. This has been a real pain for the OA because many of the old traditions have been made public, and many of the ceremonies have lost that special spark they once had, IMHO.

I think a good rule of thumb is if the boy did not earn the patch or was not at the event then it should not be on his uniform. Have him put it in his patch collection as a collectable or trading patch. Tell your son to get active in his OA chapter and he can offer to help design a new flap for the lodge.

ASM Sounds to me like you have this well planned and will do it in a kind and compassionate manner, bravo. You can tell him the sash will be waiting for him when he is truly and properly eligible to receive this honor. shortridge Yes I think the boy should return the sash, if the lodge deems it appropriate, until he is truly qualified to receive it. The article I feel will just bring the whole situation and just fuel rumors and speculation which is unnecessary and not productive using this case as a warning to other boys. The truth is this is just as much the fault of the youth officers and adult advisors for not doing all the proper verifications before the ceremony as it was the candidates whether intentional or not on his part.

shortridge, no criticism intended just an observation. Again you have to ask are we in this for our boys or ourselves, too many adults are in the latter category. Turning in his sash will be quite an embarrassment for the boy and other boys will find out anyhow. Again, we do not have the complete story here either, but you would have to agree that humiliating the boy even further would serve no purpose. If he is at fault he knows it and will be harder on himself than the lodge officers or adult leaders would be. But the question remains that you do not run a troop like a boot camp, this is not the army.

While thats true shortridge it still doesn't affect my comments, even with no names the lodge members will still know or find out quickly who it was, and don't think they won't, and that kid will pay the price. John, Boy Scouts and the OA are not the Army but you constantly compare the two and prove the point that ex military do not always make the best scout leaders because they can't switch off all those years of drills, blood and sweat but instead carry them over to the boy scout troop.

Too many here are ready to cast blame and pass judgement without knowing all the facts. This could have been a simple misunderstanding instead of being "untrustworthy" or "a lack of integrity". This should be properly handled by the lodge's chief or vice chief, have the boy turn in the sash and wait until he is qualified to go through the ceremony. John, setting back the clock is improperly adding to the requirements, and publishing his name not only is going over the top it is counterproductive to the meaning and purpose of the OA. The lodge youth leaders are there for a purpose not just in name only so let them do their jobs, if they need help they have the lodge advisor. I have witnessed adults blowing things way out of line almost permanently destroy two lodges, in one case it took over 3 years to rebuild it from the ground up. There was a reason Baden Powell wanted to keep adult control in the Boy Scouts to a minimum, this is a typical example.

True the rules are the rules but sometimes we need to use common sense too, in high country's example these adults are motivating the boys to go to the next level. You have to admit that the Eagle badge is much more impressive to see than a tiny knot over a pocket flap. IMHO anyone who receives an eagle should be allowed to wear the patch on an adult uniform, if he chooses to, with an sense of respect for all the BSA has given him as a youth, and what's wrong with that. I only made it to Life Scout myself but I am always glad to see a former scout proud of earning his Eagle talking to others about his experiences, if nothing else it is great PR for the organization.

Nancy I have a couple of issues with your post. First if you really did speak to someone at the council they would not have told you about your husbands last background check for legal reasons. Secondly, there are registries kept by law enforcement agencies, and the BSA maintains their own registry of people whose BSA memberships were revoked and were permanently black-balled from the BSA, even if there was no conviction for a crime. The BSA list is only accessible to the SE, that list would have been reviewed, as well as law enforcement agency checks before he was made jambo SM. So I guess my question is what background check are you referring to? Technically if he was not convicted of any crime and he was never blackballed from the BSA there is nothing you can do or that the council is required to do, except take the proper steps to protect your son. You probably should be getting proper legal advice instead of asking people on a forum. Best Wishes to you.

Gold Winger still up to your old ways of reading what you want to read and then trying to pick a fight, that got old fast last time and I hope we don't have to go through that cr*p again. Try reading f-chbb's post again for the overall message instead of taking lines out of context.

Hey Herbie Maybe he is just the product of his WoodBadge training, as Kudu would say, lol. Honestly though if he really is a real PIA then get rid of him before you start losing boys, after all they are the reason for the program and not some adult scouters power trip.

So Goldwinger from your last post if that life scout quit after making ASPL, you say for community service, but what does that say about the program relating to the boys needs, its not about the uniform its more about the adult control in that troop. If we want to have scouting prosper we as an organization need to reach out to the needs of those youth and not what we adults think they need. One of Kudu's most valid points is that there is way too much adult control in todays scouting program compared to years ago and that the model used in todays leader training reinforces this. The program BP envisioned was a youth oriented and youth run unit, somewhere along the way BSA leadership has lost sight of that vision, and instead has replaced it with an adult oriented and controlled program. Then we wonder why our numbers are still declining, hmm.

Kudu Maybe your question ought to be how much more damage will Mazzuca do to the BSA as the new CSE. My guess is about the same amount as the new pope is doing to the Catholic Church. As far as WB is concerned I have taken both courses and aside from the friendships the rest was mostly a group of adult trainers who enjoyed treating other adults like children, each of them on their own personal power trips. I have most of Powell's and Hillcourt's books and have gotten much more out of them than any council training. Still I never expected too much going to Woodbadge and I was not disappointed either time, now I have my beads and books and the classes are a distant memory.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Sorry Billy but you have taken this debate to a new level of absolute and extreme absurdity. The question here is quite simple, How vital to the scouting program is the uniform? and, How much of a uniform is really necessary? Instead of looking at this from the myopic viewpoint of "that's the way it has always been", which by the way is not true in this instance, what would be a practical solution to this particular problem which is becoming more prevalent over the years with both youth and adults in the program. Think creatively not emotionally.

I hate to tell you boomer but boy scouts have been elitist for at least the last two decades.

Uz2 The world is not as black and white as your last post suggests, your viewpoint is your own but it lacks the true reality of todays society. I suggest you really read Eamonns last post about the topic at hand as it is an excellent example of what is happening today with our teenage scouts, you may not agree with it but it is the truth and being hardnosed with your teens will not change that truth.

I agree with Eamonn don't call it scouting because those are already established programs with certain expectations and structure. The word scouting is not and can not be trademarked because of its many and varied meanings and applications, Boy Scout and Girl Scout however are trademarked names which can not be used by any other organization.

Pack 212 Scouter Unless your CO is the LDS church then their objections are at best illogical and out of date and at worst a perfect reason to find a new CO. Check with your DE to see if your CO could sponsor two seperate crews at the same church, I am pretty sure the council will either say no or strongly discourage the move. I guarantee you the youth will want to do joint activities anyway so having two crews becomes a moot point. At least talk to some crew leaders and learn more about the program before you try to organize two crews, IMHO it would be a receipe for failure. Many crews fail in their first year because the adult organizers don't do their homework and do not realize all the work that goes into organizing and maintaining a new crew. Good luck no matter what you decide.

Great story Kahuna. It really looks like that crew was well trained and and is a real credit to the sea scouting program. I hope the council throws them some kind of fund raising banquet or activity to get their boat seaworthy again.

With over six years of Venturing experience I will give you my take on the situation. First, your CO can require an all male crew, it is their unit, however if a coed crew is your goal then I would suggest you find another CO. It would be much easier than having two seperate crews whose members would probably want to do joint activities anyway. I have had a coed crew all these years and have never had a problem with innappropriate behavior, not only that but the girls actually push the boys into being more active on activities and earning awards. The reality is by Venturing age boys and girls enjoy hanging out with and doing activities with each other. Try talking to your CO to see what their objections are and try to assure them they have nothing to worry about, you could also bring a crew advisor along from another coed crew to support you. In any case good luck, I absolutely love working with my crew who are highly motivated, great leaders, and proud to be Venturers, we have a solid program and large size crew (50), we continue to grow every year. It is truly a great program.

Brent, You and a few others have proven my point, that it is the ADULTS who push for the "full uniform" and not the boys WANTING to be in full uniform. I am not saying no uniform but rather a much more practical and better looking one. Take the new centennial shirt for example, the plastic glue on cheap looking BSA strip and American flag is an insult and laughable representation of what the BSA should be about, not to mention those absolutely ridiculous billow pockets. Wait until the next world jamboree where the rest of the world scouts will have a good laugh at our boys expense. In addition the material feels cheap and uncomfortable, and the BSA paid some moron some big bucks to come up with this pathetic excuse for a shirt, made in China no less, without ever asking the people who wear them what they would have liked to see and wear. By the way this is typical SOP for Mazzuca even when he was my SE at the council where I was a DE, I could tell you stories believe me. So the question remains is it the uniform or the program that makes the boy a TRUE scout, the answer is rather obvious even to the most obtuse thinker.

Brent, "scouting is about building character and being ridiculed is just part of being a scout." Why Brent, if being ridiculed is a regular part of scouting then no wonder we are losing youth by the droves. Scouting is about a set of principles that make boys and girls grow into productive and caring people and leaders. The uniform does not shape the youth, it never has, the program does. There is no logical reason why the uniform has to look as "dorky" as it does, other countries scouting uniforms are much more practical and they are far less anal retentitive than we are with uniform rules. The uniforms in the BSA are what they are because the adult leaders from scoutmaster all the way up to Mazzucca have never asked the boys what they wanted in a uniform and don't really care what they think or want.

This is an endless debate that can go on forever, the only way to settle it is to take a group from each part of the country and have them experiment with no uniforms for a year and lets see what happens to their numbers. If the program offered is solid and fun nothing should change, except maybe an increase in numbers, but we will never know since National would never sanction the experiment. All anyone can offer than is their opinion which has no empirical evidence to support it.

Units aimed at certain racial groups have always been common in the BSA on the council and National level. Our new chief scout exec. seems to have a single focus for new units and that is the hispanics. Soon he will understand why his focus will not be terribly successful with this group, who prefer family oriented activities/organizations for brothers and sisters to be able to participate together, guess what BSA doesn't have that. Secondly good luck getting these people to register since many are not here legally and tend to move often to avoid any conflicts with the law and by staying under the radar. Maybe Mazzucca will have some luck with third generation hispanic families who have been here a while, but I kinda doubt it because the culture is the strongest tie for these people. By the way these reasons I just gave were not my own but directly said to me recently by hispanic families during a recruiting drive at the local Catholic church.

Gutterbird I agree with nolesrule the kid has to earn it. If he is young enough to finish all the requirements and is willing to put in the work then fine otherwise its, "so sad too bad."