BadenP

I think the nebulous nature of the letter click posts is alluding to what these skippers told me. You notice it says "any awards sea scouts could receive before the reorganization" with no mention of venturers being able to continue to receive the quartermaster award, and that "any potential changes would occur after an adequate grace period" seem to be heading towards plans for future seperation which is exactly what these skippers were telling me. So it seems to me that the plans are set and waiting to be executed by National. Buffalo, not to point a finger at you at you either, but when you have a ship with a crew dressed in naval uniforms displaying ranks mirroring their military counterparts, running drills, giving and executing orders given by superior officers,etc., and then say it is not paramilitary what else would you call it? Heck even the Sea Scout manual is set up like a US Navy operations manual The only sea scout units I have witnessed that are similiar at all to Venturing are the ones who are "ragbaggers", sailboaters with no ranks or uniform, other than a tshirt or polo shirt, no ranks or drills just having fun on the water. This is why I agree with the skippers in my council that the split is inevitable, has already been planned out and National is just waiting for the right time to make it official, my bet is that it will happen in time for the BSA centennial.

Gee emb021 when I went to a joint Venturing/Sea Scout leadership event recently what I relayed in my last post seemed to be how the sea scout leaders present viewed the recent reorganization, and they seem to be under the impression that they now are seperate from Venturing even though the National Office has the same people overseeing both programs. In fact on the volunteer level both national and regional level they are very seperate. Additionally they discussed that Venturing would be dropping the sea scout bronze and quartermaster award from their program leaving Quartermaster solely under the auspices of Sea Scouts. These leaders by the way had just returned from a regional sea scout leadership meeting. So disagree if you must but no one present from the council office refuted the information. Maybe you don't think so but these leaders said the chain of command on a ship is very much like a naval vessel, the teens are given command duties but the final decision lies with the skipper. Now I am no sea scout expert by any means but these people, experienced and trained sea scout leaders seemed to know what they were talking about, and I think they hold a little more credibility in this matter than you do.

I think that the Sea Scouts should have their own skipper award and not qualify for the advisor award for two reasons. Sea Scouting has been trying to gain their independence from Venturing for a long time now and with the new reorganization have seperated the two groups and they should be seperate groups. Second, most sea scout ships are run like paramilitary groups following naval rules and the skipper is the CO, unlike Venturing Crew Advisors who advise and guide not command behaviors or tasks as a skipper does. The two positions are diametrically opposed to each other. So Sea Scouts need to be independant simply because their program is NOT the Venturing program pure and simple. Emb021 you know what I mean if you are the expert at Venturing you claim to be.

HMMMM, thats interesting Eagle, as I said my friend wasn't asked to do that since it is supposed to be part of the curriculum there. Times have changed, no more individual programming departments and I guess they don't go out to the Circle 10 camp anymore to play boy scout. This PDL training sounds about as interesting as WoodBadge 2001 (yawn), lol. It is no wonder the new DE's are so far out of touch with the program and even more alienated from the volunteers nowadays the training they receive today is all about money and manipulation and multiplying your numbers. In my experience with SE Mazzuca in the past I don't see this getting any better in the future now that he is Chief Scout Exec.

Twocub Where do you get your information, its not true, a friend of mine has just been accepted into professional scouting, a couple of months ago, and is heading to PDL-1 next week and he was not required to take any training prior to his leaving. Besides Cub or Scout leader training will be of little use with what they are going to be taught at National anyway. The emphasis is on building a community financial campaign, and how to set up new units and getting adults to volunteer as scout leaders etc., so the idea of taking volunteer training prior doesn't even make sense.

Our program training piece at National (1987)consisted of spending a day and evening at the Circle 10 camp and given a crash course in Cubbing, Boy Scouts, Varsity, and Exploring by staff members of the various and now defunct program divisions. We were never asked to take volunteer training in our district prior to coming to NEI. However a year later while still a DE I was a volunteer Webelos leader for the pack at my church, and the volunteers loved having me at the district cub leader training as a participant. I think it showed them that I respected the job they were doing, and I learned a lot of useful information. Like I said before a DE is only as good as the team he selects, and having the respect of the volunteers.

Dean, What you say is essentially correct, dollars and numbers are truly all that National really cares about bottom line. DE's really are truly in a no win situation as you can't serve two masters. Thats why the DE's that truly do care about the people in their districts wind up leaving the profession in three years or less, usually feeling disgusted with National and guilty about how they steamrolled over those district scouters, community leaders, etc in order to meet their required goals. District scouters will never get the DE's they truly need or want or deserve for these reasons. As I understand it the current DE training at National is even more hardcore than it was in the late 80's when I went through it emphasizing only money and numbers to the almost complete exclusion of program and district needs, except when there is money or numbers to gain.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Like it or not the Civil War is part of U.S. history, which we can not hide from or shove under a carpet. Since this is an official Civil War battlefield the flags of both sides should be treated with respect as men on both sides died fighting for what they thought was right. A silent ceremony placing the flag in the fire, not folded like a US flag, would be appropriate. Now I disagree with and dislike the positions the South took during the war but after studying the Civil War in great detail I can understand why they did what they felt they had to do. Better yet I like Gern's idea, there are many Civil War enthusiasts out there who would love to have a souvenir from such a site, so sell them to the tourists. When I was at the Alamo a while back they sell the Texas flags that fly over the Alamo each day with "The Alamo" imprinted in the margin in small letters along with a certificate of authenticity. I bought one being a history buff, so in this case it could be a fund raiser to pay for the upkeep of the battlefield, just a thought.

Well you all could ship your ruined shirts directly to Bob Mazzuca at National and demand not only a refund but a new supplier as he was the one who made the decision to go the cheap way with Chinese sweatshop labor. Everyone here is correct the new shirts are inferior in quality and the new patches are a joke, more like rubber glueon stickers. A real way to show your disatisfaction is not to convert, supply is running a two fer sale right now on the old uniforms so you can stock up. So the choice is you can choose to conform and convert or stand up and demand better from National by refusing to buy the new "monkey suit". However I think most scouters are lovers not fighters, lol.

I agree with Beavah, I have seen this thing at all levels of scouting over the years. One problem I have witnessed is when the adult is a parent and the scout is their son, it is hard for some to let go of the parent thing and treat the boy like any other scout. On scouting activities parents may see a whole different side to their boy they may not see at home, and want to quash it with strict parental control methods instead of acting as a scouting leader. This results in alienating the boy and embarrassing him in front of his peers. That's why I feel that more training is needed for scouters in proper disciplinary and motivational techniques as part of basic training.

The bottom line is if you want 100% of your contribution to go to scouting without deductions for processing or diverting to another cause then contribute directly to FOS and not the UW or CFC which deducts up to 25% for processing the donation. It's just that simple.

Eagle I too am a former DE for almost five years and for "professional scouters" (I really hate that term)the tricky part is too find that delicate balance between required duties and the needs of your districts. For me the problem was that my predecessors had basically used and abused the scouters and the big money people in both of my districts creating an obvious hatred and mistrust of the council, so my first task was to establish both credibility and trust with those same people. My first year was a a rebuilding year, but the next four years both districts far exceeded FOS goals and numbers growth and were the top two districts in the council for those next four years. It took a lot of blood, sweat, and tears but the end result when I left was two strong districts with solid,growing units and 96% of the leaders fully trained, and both exceeded their FOS goals every year. What so many DE's miss coming fresh out of training is that if your district is in shambles you need to first nurture it back to health then you can concentrate on FOS & numbers. And never forget the scout unit leaders, district leaders, and your community leaders as they are the basis for your success or failure.

Eagle I can tell you from personal experience that Powderhorn was a great time and it got me to try things I would never had done or even tried on my own. The instructors were well trained and EXPERIENCED outdoor types, unlike many of the other BSA trainings I have undergone. I recommend every scout leader from Cubs to Venturing take the course for some unforgetable experiences and extremely useful information in high adventure activities that are applicable to any outdoor program.

Stosh, I think this time you are missing the point, adults are just that adults and to give them a curfew is just way out of line. The boys need to have discipline instilled in them but for most adults it is just too late, lol. As was mentioned the boys are probably sleeping too close to the adults so spread them out. Fleet,what you need to be concerned with is does the troop have a good solid program that the boys enjoy, if so then don't get caught up with the small stuff.

I have to agree that there seems to be a little more arrogance among many WBers that they seem to think they have reached some sort of pinnacle towards scout sainthood, but the truth of the matter is they are only as good as their instructors, what they learned, and how much of the material they use in their own units. I have completed both the old and new WoodBadge courses and the staff on the original class were vastly superior to the later course and as a result the second class, IMHO, was almost a complete waste of time, except for the friendships formed. As far as the "big whup" is concerned WB is quite an accomplishment for any scouter, but if they act superior to other scouters they have missed the message and should have their beads taken away until they realize what idiots they have been.

Hey johnny, as others have said the patch isn't worth that much, except to a former scout or scouter of that council for nostalgia. I have a Mission Council csp I received from a DE during NEI professional training in Texas in the late 80's. Both councils I was in as a youth and a DE have been closed/absorbed and I managed to get patches for both fairly easily. So monetary value is going to be nil, you can try posting it on ebay where all the die hard collectors go to find a bargain or that one special patch for them.

And that Eamonn is exactly why DE vs Volunteer will always be a quasi adversarial one. The DE is trained first and foremost to become entrenched in his district and hit up the big money people, next is to create as many new units as possible, exsisting units needs and desires take a back seat they are not top priorities. National figures after about three years the DE has pretty much reached his peek and probably drained the economic resources of a district so they are transferred to another council and a new DE is appointed to start the process all over again, they figure a district will respond better to a new face. That is the process of professional scouting, you give the volunteer only minimally, the DE's are there to raise money and create new units.

Maybe Catholics should be in their own seperate units with a priest along on events to say mass instead of disrupting scouting events or they can be like the LDS and leave on Saturday night. No matter what that bishop stated recent polls done by Catholic organizations show that the average Catholic in America attends mass only 1 1/2 times a month and 85% of Catholic women of child bearing age use some form of birth control so it seems most Catholics don't seem to care what the church hierarchy has to say. The truth of the matter is that there are exceptions to the mass attendance rule written into cannon law, dispensation can be given by a pastor, you can invite a deacon to your event to say a communion service and they are much more numerous than priests, and in extreme circumstances a baptized/confirmed Catholic can also perform a communion service, all of which are acceptable alternatives. The fact is that in many areas in this country with the ever growing shortage of priests many Catholics only see a priest led mass once or twice a month. This shortage is only going to get worse in the future and the days of a priestless parish is rapidly approaching so Catholics will need to learn to accept this reality and these alternatives instead of what they have been used to. In my area alone within 10 years half to three quarters of the parishes will not have a priest and plans are already underway to close many of those churches.

John in KC I agree with you 100%, with the cost of uniforms today the changing of hats, neckers is just plain assinine. OGE's argument about sports equipment costs is equally a straw argument because because sports uniforms are used in play until they are worn out whereas scout uniforms are for the most part decorative not utilitarian, most boys are embarrased to wear them outside of their pack or troop meetings. As soon as scouts get to camp first thing is get out of the uniform into a t shirt and jeans or shorts. At cub day camp all I have ever seen was the camp tshirt worn, not the uniform. What National has done to cub scout uniforms is nothing more than outright piracy, do you think a tiger cub cares about whether he wears an orange tshirt or a blue cub uniform, I can tell you from experience the answer is an astounding NO. Then some leaders wonder why they can't get their cubs into full uniforms, they fall apart easily if they are worn too much in the outdoors or for strenuous activities making them impractical as well. I agree with Daddy_O it is time for National to stop finding more ways to line their coffers using extortionary methods.

As a former DE and now a long time scouter FOS has always been a real bugaboo to me. At National during training DE's were instructed to join Rotary or Kiwannas in order to identify the big money people in your district and concentrate 95% of your FOS time going after them. The unit FOS we were instructed to find a well known scouter in your district and let him or her do the unit presentations, that way it supposedly didn't look like the DE was asking for money to save his job. The training the DE received consisted of very little other than to find out the main interests of your target and arrange for him to join you, for example on the golf course, a football game, etc., and in the middle of that activity pitch him the BSA needs your financial support and solicit his contribution. While this methodology is a common business practice it always made me feel a little sleazy. Still, in professional scouting circles the ends always justified the means.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

In my own council Scoutnet was either not recording or some other glich happened because many unit advancement records were lost in cyberland, on top of that it took the council over 3 months before they noticed they were not receiving any advancement records. All the unit leaders assumed the advancements were on file. Three boys who were Eagle candidates were smart enough to keep not only their handbooks but all other advancement paperwork together so their EBOR's went through without a hitch. The council apologized to the unit leaders who now had to resubmit all their advancement records for the last six months to make sure everything had been caught and recorded. A lot of angry scouters let their feelings fly at that roundtable. Moral of the story - Technology may be a wonderful thing but a paper trail is always a wise backup.

relapse, Traditionally the COR must be selected by the IH - Institutional Head, in your case with a church this is usually the head of the church, commonly the pastor. The COR is his or her link to the unit representing the interests and concerns of the chartering organization, and this selection is not up to the committees approval or vote.

AHHH, Ed and Merlyn doing battle once again, everything seems to be back to normal on this forum. Now it will be interesting to see how many pages this goes before F-Scouter shuts it down, lol.

All this is is a moronic speech from an ignorant governor, Eagle scout or not, and is not even worth the press it is getting. The people and corporations of Texas would never support it, and has already been pointed out would be impossible to carry out due to legalities, people would leave enmasse, not to mention the states infrastructure would fall apart without federal support. I lived in Texas for over a decade and believe me the people there would view this as nothing more than a big joke, I bet they are already looking into starting impeachment proceedings on this bozo.

Oh contrare Barry, Christian is a more generic term covering a myriad of denominations many of whom disagree with each other as to what a Christian really is. It is for that reason IMHO that religious doctrines can and do get in the way of cultivating a healthy scouting program. The BSA has become much to much dependant on churches as sponsors, so if a jewish boy wants to join a catholic troop odds are he will at least be exposed to that faith more than his parents would want and thats where the trouble begins. I for one agree strongly with interfaith services on campouts, etc., and those who disagree don't really understand what the DRP really says. For all you Catholic scouters out there Pope John Paul II in his book Thresholds of Hope states that "all faiths contain semi verbi", which translates to seeds of truth. Religious intolerance is as strong as ever and is a serious roadblock to scouting having a serious religious component to its program.