BadenP

My point exactly pj, not only maritime law but sea scouting rules and regs, not to mention YP, and the high cost of the vessel all comes into play.

Once again Fred you got it so very wrong. That was not a comparison but rather trying to speculate the extreme as to the type of post the BSA might go with in LFL, and the comment was made in jest if you would learn to understand what you read. So thank you once again Fred for your incorrect and worthless post.

Fred I have been a scouter for over 25 years. Next the DRP and this biased report have virtually nothing to do with each other since this articles research was based on Christians only even though the writer used "religious people" to cover that fact up, email the guy if you don't believe me. The DRP applies only with my scouting activities, the majority of my friends are not scouters and neither is my professional life, and I bet the same is true in your life as well.. They see the DRP as "an out of date policy that does not mirror the reality of our society today", their words not mine, but they are more right than wrong. So be careful Fred if you want to argue go for it but beware of the feedback you will certainly receive.

First of all I think it is always dangerous to classify anyone as a "better" citizen due to religious affiliation based on a report from a religious news service. The bias should be obvious to any reader Christian or not. I know many people who call themselves devout Christians and yet only go to church on Christmas and Easter and their love of this country and participation in politics is no different than the every Sunday church goer, so yes Fred I think this report is not only erroneous but promotes false stereotypes, and is not worth the paper it is written on. This was the same mentality that other countries have used to surpress minorities in their own cultures, look at Iraq, the treatment of Native Americans, the Jews in Germany, and so on infinitum. The bottom line is that NONE of the claims in the report can be substantiated in any major way.

HICO First of all I like both Stosh and Beavah and respect their scouting background and opinions, even the ones I disagree with which are not too often. As OGE has pointed out he goes through continuing metamorphisis daily so it depends on where he is for that day whether he acts as a moderator or an attacker, lol. Sometimes in the heat of battle things get said out of context, but I think Stosh and I know where we are both coming from, even when we disagree. So HICO don't try to flame a fire with inappropriate observations, okay.

Stosh First - There are three butcher shops within one mile of my place that carry venison regularly so I can't believe you can't find it in Wisconsin. If you want to hunt a deer once or twice a year for your freezer thats okay with me, just don't try to make the case that it is necessary part to survive in todays world, cuz its not. I am amazed you consider killing 180 rabbits in one day as performing a community service, heck lets make that a potential Eagle Project. Second - I have no problem with teens learning law enforcement techniques, or even the proper handling and use of a firearm. This particular post goes one step beyond that with the Deadly Force training they receive almost exclusively to take out terrorists and illegals which I find objectionable. Those are the kind of tactics the Border Patrol,ICE, and other governmental agencies are forced to use due to the highly volatile nature of almost every encounter they have, and the fact that these officers usually work alone over a large geographic area. Lastly Brent, what you describe as my SOP is exactly what you do to me and so many posters in this forum every day who disagree with your ideas. "Left wing bunk" apparently is the exact same thing as "Right wing intolerance".

Well it is indeed a good thing that a couple of the out of touch right wing posters here are no longer active scouters but only come here to berate other opinions. I have been to Imperial County several times and while it is not a rich county it certainly is not as destitute as the article portrays. While you may not agree with me here many scouters I work with do, and in any case teaching kids to use guns "to kill human beings" should not be acceptable in any sort of BSA program. Brent, you know you really make southerners look backwards and archaic with your posts, and while I know that is not the case, you my friend are indeed prehistoric with your illogical and unsubstantiated arguments, lol.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Stosh, Stosh, Stosh How on earth is going on hunts and teaching teens about taking a human life preparing them for the future? Hunting was a necessity in humanity's earlier history in order to survive, but today it is little more than an archaic and bloody trophy sport that serves NO useful purpose. As far as self protection is concerned, to learn how to use a gun for target shooting is one thing, but most law enforcement professionals will tell you that home gun owners wind up having that gun used on them by a criminal or a member of their own family than the owner ever uses it to "protect" themselves. When I was a DE I had an Explorer post in my district, pre LFL, only for youth who got in trouble with the law and were given a choice of going to this post or juvenile detention, but instead of guns they were granted a special charter by National for a focus on Tai Kwon Do, the emphasis was on learning the mental discipline to control their feelings of anger and rage and to refocus them on the technique of the martial art, instead of hurting others. While guns do have their place in scouting, using them to teach teens how to kill other human beings has NO place in scouting. Knives, axes, etc. are tools used in scouting for learning and performing certain skills, not as weapons.

Stosh What you are talking about is politics. The reality of your youth is NOT the reality of teens today. Law enforcement is all about protecting and saving lives, and the use of deadly force is taught to them ONLY to be used as a last resort. I guess we can agree to disagree then IMHO the teaching of killing another human being has no place in scouting or any program affiliated with scouting.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Gee, there is a Neo-Nazi training camp about fifty miles away from me, maybe they could become an LFL post too, what great things they could do. Stosh as a DE I started several law enforcement posts and NONE of them ever trained the kids to kill, so your analogy really doesn't hold up and your "BUSH" sentiments are really out of line for 14 year old teens. Heck, lets change the GSS to allow all scouts to have lethal firearms training in order to "keep our country safe and make my night a safe one",lol, Stosh that really is a load of bull. To me if you guys are typical of the scouting leadership today then maybe it is time to let the organization die why it still has a modicum of respect left.

OGE you got to be kidding with that last post. Why don't we have a post to teach these kids how to be snipers, or conduct prostitution stings, or how about stealing and stripping cars, all these are vocations too. This kind of cr*p that passes itself off as Scouting is nothing more than irresponsible and immoral behavior, much like your last post. Any activity whose primary purpose is to teach youth how to kill has no place in scouting, period. And scouting wonders why they have the image they do.

What a lot of scouters fail to recognize is that the basic core of what scouting is and has been for the last 100 years is archaic and irrelevant to todays youth techno centered and self centered exsistence. Unless scouting is totally reinvented it will NEVER appeal to the youth of today. So the question becomes do we totally abandon the essence of what scouting is in order to increase numbers? IMHO I hope not, because if National did transform the program it would cease to be true scouting. It's like the old adage "you can't have your cake and eat it too." When an organization tries to become something it is not it loses its true core of what made it successful in the first place.

Personally, I do not see this type of program as anything but a negative for the BSA. Whats next do they give these kids live ammo, put them on the border and let them take shots at Mexicans trying to get across the border? All this unit really is, an extension of the fear and paranoia of the previous eight years instilled by the former guy in the White House, and is certainly not anything to be proud of for the BSA.

Actually discussing in detail the conviction(s) by the SE with the IH & COR is also a violation of the privacy clause, all the council can say is that the person failed the check based on a past criminal record and is not eligible for BSA membership, period. As was said earlier a person either passes or fails the check there is no discussion or compromises, the CO is simply told to find someone else

You know Merlyn comparing the DRP of the BSA to an anti semetic organization is way over the line,even for you. Personally I would love to see the BSA get rid of the whole DRP, especially if they want to see a growth in numbers and the use of public schools and facilities for events,but the reality is that is not going to happen at this time. All organizations have requirements to which you must conform if you want to be part of that organization, schools, corporations, religions, fraternal groups, etc., and you have to choose whether or not being a member of that group is worth making those concessions. People like yourself love to make mountains out of this issue which is little more than a molehill, the BSA does not say you have to be a member of ANY particular religious tradition just to be reverent, which has a myriad of definitions. So get over it and get over yourself already, your arguments make you and your atheist friends look petty, bitter, and very unlikeable.

Try this one "gitchee gummee", now maybe this ludicrous thread can die of its own accord. Man, if this is the quality of the OA membership today no wonder lodges are going belly up. Let these guys go to their lodge officers and not waste time here.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

If you guys quit responding to this troll the thread will die on its own. JUST IGNORE HIM!

When I was an ASM a long time ago, our troop always brought a craft bucket on campouts with us for after dark that contained markers, beads, scraps of cloth, leather, etc etc., for the boys to make some sort of knicknack and we always had the new tenderfoot scouts make their own patrol flag then to fly along side of the others and we had a little ceremony to go along with the event, the boys always thought it was kind of cool. But I have to agree, the requirement says describe and not make the patrol flag.

emb021 you can argue all you want but time will reveal the truth. You see I worked for Mazzuca and know how he thinks and the MO he likes to use and I know your buddy Bill and his buddies at National will be in for quite a surprise.

Buffalo skipper your explaination of sea scout vs naval uniforms is little more than splitting hairs, they are both manufactured by the same company is my understanding. As far as "ragbaggers" is concerned that's the term these sea scout units and other sailors I know and sail with use for themselves and do not consider it a derrogatory term in the slightest. In fact the sea scout ragbaggers pride themselves as being more ecologically minded than the powerboat ships they call "stinkpots".

emb21 Being responsible does not necessarily mean knowledgeable, read my prior post,but then ask yourself why did National just restructure the sea scout National board if they were not planning an eventual split?

Nothing was said about trust OGE, they are just people trying to interpret materials they did not write and may not understand fully or correctly but have to explain to volunteers and the press, and with all the recent turnovers and changes in positions at National recently getting a straight or correct answer is not always easy. We had the assistant Chief Scout Exec at a recent council event, a nice guy but clearly in a position way over his head, and that's where the problem lies, he would not give a direct answer to any question, kinda like a politician. Everything is heresay until it happens.

emb021 what you seem not to understand is that National has a lot of people in positions they know very little about, just like the government. Just because Bill Evans tells you something on the phone doesn't make it correct or even official BSA policy. It is obvious to most veteran scouters that National does a poor job in editing their publications or even putting out a coherant policy and those of us in field are left to our own devices. I have been to National many times, talked face to face to the so called experts and was shocked to see just how little most of them understood the programs they were responsible for. One of them even admitted to me that he really didn't understand his new position to answer any questions, and that he had just been thrown into this position because his other job had been eliminated. Not to mention names but he was placed in charge of one of the former program divisions. So quoting some guy from National really doesn't mean anything.

So would I bullmoose. Our new Chief Scout Mazzuca has stated on the record that getting a boy camping outdoors in a tent will not be a priority in the BSA of today. Your question should be What were our traditional outdoor values, and you need to read the writings of Baden Powell, William Hillcourt, and others to get your answer. To me simply it is giving the youth a solid understanding and appreciation of the outdoors, and teaching them the skills needed to survive in, to protect and not to fear the outdoors .(This message has been edited by BadenP)

You guys haven't heard this is all part of the new "Mazzuca BSA Recapitalization Plan", if they can't make money one way they will make sure every scout and leader will have to own a minimum of 10 different versions of the same uniform and since they are made in China they will fall apart within two years or less and have to be replaced, lol. I couldn't resist, this uniform stuff is getting more ridiculous by the day.