MattR

I think this discussion, in the general sense, has not moved in years. On the one hand there's a possibility of kids getting hurt and on the other there's a loss of growing up. It's been stuck there. First of all, I think quantifying the risks and benefits might move things forward. Maybe the BSA has specific reports of scouts getting hurt when left on their own but we don't know how many and what the severity is. On the other side, there is no quantifiable information on the benefits. The entire discussion is Someone mentioned child abduction. How many scouts have been abducted by parents from a campout? Is it any? is it five out of the million scouts in the past 10 years? What number is reasonable? Roughly half of kids have gone through their parents divorce. I don't knot the percentage of ugly divorces but I've seen the results in kids that are totally messed up from it. Maybe these kids could benefit from the self confidence of camping on their own. Another aspect of risk vs benefit is comparing the scenario of no parents to untrained parents. The BSA is really adamant about having two adults around on a campout and yet a few weeks ago a bunch of parents had scouts make canoes from pvc tubing and Tyvek and take it on moving water. Moving water is one of those things the BSA requires certification for and camping is not. In the canoe incident that troop was really lucky some scout didn't get caught in a strainer. This brings up the topic of training. I'm all for good training. Rather than say no, you can't do anything, I'd rather see training that would allow scouters to take scouts, or let them go on their own, into different challenges. Challenges are one of those unmentioned methods, much like having fun, that should not be ignored for the sake of making it simple to reduce risk. The old saying don't throw the baby out with the bath water applies here. The BSA does seem to jump first to "not allowed" rather than "allowed if trained." If the risk of un trained scouters is too high to allow an activity then how about trained scouters to allow it rather than just denying it. The model for training is already in place and for the most part works well. Let's explore that route.

Thank you for ending this discussion.

I think there's another piece to this puzzle that might help and I saw it in spades at my last high adventure trip. We were on a challenging backpacking trip because it was high, cold, and snowy. Yet it was one of the best trips I've been on and this was due to the scouts. In a nutshell, good leadership is really simple if there's good teamwork. The leader said he "didn't have to do much" and yet he did the perfect amount. The key was everyone wanted to help. There was no complaining even though a number of scouts got cold at night, feet were sore. They helped each other and talked each other up. At the end they, too, noticed how good the group was. There ranks ranged from first class to life. Age ranged from 13 to 17. Abilities are good but nothing extraordinary. They have their share of busy schedules that pull them away for a season at a time. A few are quite shy but the leader is an extrovert. What the adults did notice was that they were all leaders with respect to scout spirit. They were all in the OA but one (and he was not eligible yet). They also were all up for a challenge. This group would be the model patrol. If my troop had a few more patrols like this then I'd be on a soap box telling you to just let the scouts be. About 7 years ago we had a group of scouts that had more than it's share of negative, or self centered, or just plain lazy kids join. It has been a huge challenge to get them motivated. They were there to make mom or dad happy. Well, they finally worked their way out of the troop and the result was this past high adventure trip. Anyway, maybe the question isn't how to develop patrols so much as it's about dealing with a lack of teamwork. I don't know if our culture is making it harder to find scouts that live the oath and law but that seems to me at least the underlying issue. One scout in a patrol that's not wanting to help out is a challenge for the patrol. Two is a huge challenge. Three makes it impossible. A lot of scouts are new to the idea of teamwork so starting them off with a challenging group is not an easy way to develop patrols.

The Ken and Barbie uniform. Sorry, but they look rather stiff.

Sounds to me like the council is broke and they're just making crap up. I've seen this before. Just ignore.

I think it should depend on what you want to learn about. That said, I thought I knew what I wanted to learn about but I failed. My ticket was mostly a waste of time because I was clueless and my "advisor" couldn't be bothered. So I'd say the question is who should you talk with about your ticket.

I think. It would be a great goal. Maybe hard to reach. Maybe a lot of adult guidance. Yet maybe a lot of room for scouts to take over.

Welcome! Glad to see anyone get involved or get back involved with scouts.

I don't understand your statement. In what way can an eagle not show continued commitment as an adult?

Not odd at all - that way they can charge $499.99. Well, a bit cynical but I always thought it was the councils that get to profit on training.

It's just a flesh wound!

My brother still has something that looks a lot like this: https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/1933-37-primus-71-no-date-stamp.34923/ And it still works.

I have a rather old version of that stove. If anyone wants it let me know. I'm cleaning out my garage. I haven't tried it in about 2 decades but will if someone is interested.

I had a scout in my troop who is now a town police officer. He loves donuts.

The rug stuck out? So, the reasoning is the tent is not uniform, or something? If it was truly outlandish, maybe it could be the SPL's call but certainly not mom. Either way, this is just a dumb way to lose trust with the scouts. They should have let it be.

Found on another website: My troop has done many parts of the Green river, in rafts. When I heard home made canoes I was thinking of something that might float. They really are quite lucky nobody got hurt. There's a lot of that river I wouldn't do in a good canoe much less Tyvek and pvc. Those canoes are just classic. I can see seams that go below the water line where the Tyvek is folded around the frame. I bet that leaks. One of my fears I used to explain to scouts and adults was something along the lines of, I just don't want a photo on the front page of the NYT if this goes bad, so let's make sure it won't. Again, really glad nobody got hurt.

Something else to think about is what you want the end result to be. The people that say let him stay see some redeemable aspects of this scout. Those that want him thrown out of scouts either don't or don't really care. When I dealt with a similar case my first question was did the scout feel bad because he got caught or because he realized he did something wrong? If the latter case then I'd have something to work with. If the former, I wanted him out immediately and I didn't want him back until he changed (for the exact reasons @fred8033 mentioned). Unfortunately he never saw the problem and I got him to leave. BTW, my council wanted to give him another chance. I said fine, just not in my troop. Eventually they did throw him out of scouts. The point is, the troop knows this scout better than anyone at the council. Unless the council has dealt with something similar before, and positively, I would listen to what they have to say but I'd also take it with a grain of salt.

@logistician24, I had a scout bring pot to summer camp. Long story short (because everyone else has heard it) the camp director was told, he called the sheriff, the scout was put in to the legal system (and went home that day), and eventually he was removed from scouting because he just didn't understand that he did something wrong. He knew he got caught and that was a problem, but he never understood that a 16 year old can't smoke pot. You're absolutely right to see this as a problem. And since you are the CC, you do have some say in the matter. You oversee the SM. This was a miserable time for me (I was the SM at the time). I also talked to the CC about this. We had a good relationship. Good luck.

Welcome to the forum, @logistician24

That brings up another thread in this topic. Scout spirit or good character is one of those things that is best described as an ideal one always reaches for but never accomplishes. It's a paradox. The humility of never quite making it keeps one humble enough to keep trying. The rank of eagle, on the other hand, is a title bestowed by the BSA. Once an eagle always an eagle. One and done when you get right down to it. A bright, capable 16 year old that's told he's an eagle for life, that he's achieved the highest honor that the BSA can hand out - just might not have the humility or maturity to recognize that he's not infallible, that his hormones could cause him to make some bad decisions around a cute, drunk girl. Well, no 16 year old has that but all the pomp and circumstance that goes with eagle might confuse a kid. So, to answer your question, maybe some of the whom is all of us that help bestow titles. I'm not making excuses for this kid but the eagle mystique is something we should take with a grain of salt. A lot of eagle scouts are great. However, the rank is neither necessary nor sufficient to prove good character.

Welcome to the forum, @SearchFetter. I Googled "troop 32 akron ohio" and got the following: http://troop32akron.scoutlander.com/publicsite/unitcustom.aspx?UID=2488&CUSTOMID=7769. The troop was formed in 1920 and is still active. Troop 32 meets at Family of Faith UMC at 800 East Market Street, Akron Ohio. Just as an addition, if anyone knows about this scout you can send a personal message to SearchFetter.

Oh man I give up. Pl and SPL elections.

I thought he meant troop elections.

Welcome to the forum, @SM101. What exactly is the problem you're trying to resolve? At first it sounds like you're deciding whether the scout is eligible for the the OA but at the very end you state this has to do with elections. The OA has specific requirements that you must follow but, as for elections, you own those. You can make any requirements you like.

Welcome to the forum, @2275. Camp staff is usually really good training in leading with a good attitude. I always encouraged scouts to work at camp.