John-in-KC

I agree with Eamonn. This sounds like the Training Team playing "I've got a SECRET!" A PLC meeting is a DECISIONMAKING body, not an information dissemination body. Are you telling me the PLC doesn't get to decide if there will be a campfire or Sunday services? Share the information up front. A "PLC" like this in the field, which has the singular purpose of disseminating info, FOR SCOUTERS, is a TIME WASTER. BTW, are you training SCOUTS or SCOUTERS? You use both terms. Sheesh.

Mark, excuse me a minute, but I need to settle some others hash: FOR THOSE WHO WANT AN AUTHORITATIVE SOURCE: http://www.scouting.org/awards/religious/awards/index.html FROM THAT PAGE: Buddhist National Buddhist Committee on Scouting, 415 42nd Ave., San Mateo, CA 94403; 650-574-4527; fax: 408-756-3288; e-mail: Omitted(JKC) AWARDS: Cub Scout and Webelos Scout Metta Boy Scout and Varsity Scout Sangha Older Boy Scout, Varsity Scout Sangha Adult Recognition Bodhi PICTURES: http://www.scouting.org/awards/religious/awards/05.html LET'S GET OVER IT PEOPLE. THE NATIONAL COUNCIL RELIGIOUS RELATIONSHIPS COMMITTEE RECOGNIZES BUDDHISM. Any committee member doing a detailed examination of Buddhist theology to an 11 year old Tenderfoot has his head where the sun does not shine. Now, maybe, a 17 year old Eagle Candidate should have a more informed view of where his faith will take him, but that's part of the reason for the religious emblems program within BSA: To help a young man jell his faith! An interesting footnote: ALL of the older teen religious emblem awards, according to this webpage, are displaced by the Venturing Religious Life Bronze Award within the Advancement program. I'm going to have to investigate that! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now, Mark, back to you, and forgive the distraction, please... One of the things I've learned, and had repeated to me in New Leader Essentials, in Woodbadge, in COR training, is a simple fact: Everyone in the District and the Council serves to support the Key 3 of a unit (IH/COR, CC, and Program Officer (CM, SM, Coach or Adv). Helping to raise up young men should be why every Scouter in the world gives time to the grand game. That to me IMPLIES being able to ask the tough questions and seek assistance. You never mentioned who your Chartered Partner is: If a church, I'd ask them for some assistance, particularly from the youth pastor, if there be one. If your UC is a Zero, seek out one of his peers at Roundtable. If necessary, seek out the District Commissioner. There's a time and a place for folks to be pedantic sons of guns. Working directly with a youth who is trying to set his moral compass for life isn't one of them. This needs loyalty, friendship, courteousness and kindness (gee, sound familiar?). As to the particulars of last Tuesday: May I recommend that a different night from the general meeting, and perhaps a different site? The young man in question deserves full attention, and further, deserves an environment free from distraction. It's never easy on an internet bulletin board to share the full circumstances of an issue, but Mark, I have to say you're doing about as good a job as can be done. I hope my meanderings help. YIS PS: For those who may think I am a Buddhist apologist, I am not. I am Christian by faith (He is Risen, Indeed!), and Missouri Synod Lutheran by practice.

Mark, First and foremost, please keep us informed as you go down this trail. This is a very tough can of worms, otoh, not every Scout can (or perhaps should) make it to Eagle. Some specific comments... - Continuing the BOR, as I think Mark did, and drilling into where the boy is on his faith journey feels like the right thing to do. Even if we lose him from Scouting, the questions will help him define who he is. - We've not talked about resources here: Have you consulted, quietly, with District/Council advancement people, as well as the Council Chaplain (if there be one)? Inviting a Pastor who is also a Scouter and understands young adult faith struggles to come to the follow-on BOR may help draw the young man out. - If it's time for the young man to end his Scouting experience, then help him to draw that conclusion on his own . NOW, JUMPING TO THE TENDERFOOT: This is a no-brainer. BSA recognizes the Buddhist religious awards. They're inside the tent. No need to worry any more on this one. In fact, how about encouraging him to earn his religious award??!!! My source is the friendly folks at PRAY. Remember, Mark Hazelwood, the Executive Director, is on the Religious Relationships Committee of the National Council.

Hit me in PM with contact info and I will put you in touch with my District Special needs folks.

Here we sit like Birds in the Wilderness... Birds in the Wilderness... Birds in the Wilderness... Here we sit like Birds in the Wilderness... Waiting for the Fox Patrol... Waiting for the Fox Patrol... Waiting for the Fox Patrol... Here we sit like Birds in the Wilderness... Birds in the Wilderness... Birds in the Wilderness... Here we sit like Birds in the Wilderness... Waiting for the Fox Patrol!!! It seems like we ALWAYS lose it at the Foxes... John who is waiting to sing the Owl part

There is a life lesson to be taught in WHEN AND WHY one selects disobedience over obedience. The historic events Beavah discussed, save repeal of Prohibition, are all significant in that they advanced who we are as a people. People were WILLING to pay the price of disobedience, that the goal would be achieved. OTOH, many, indeed most, of the mundane activities of the world require a certain level of civil order and peace. We submit ourselves to leadership and regulation because it passes the "why shouldn't we" test. I do like Lisa's Voice, Exit, Loyalty method. As far as doing it in a Troop, one of the best leadership lessons I've used is the BOR and the "how are our meetings?" When the Scout says "we never get anything done..." well, we're off to the races about doing your part, being quiet when others are talking, preparation... Ditto when a campout is going into the tank...

There's a great place for the WB patrol patch: Glued or sewn onto the back of your leather WB nametag. Those who have the plastic nameplate... well, you have a problem

Sorry. Do the requirement. IMPORTANT LEADER LESSON: KNOW THE REQUIREMENTS! What you can do is give a unit award, my Troop used to give out an "ice cube": It was sewn onto the neckerchief.

Dan, I truly, truly wish for you that no matter the Patrol you enter, you will end up with a broad network of Scouters you can call on ... for Scouting assistance and for more mundane assistance. Have fun. This is a worthy experience John

Gotta love the ad hominem attacks here today. Here is a good piece of wisdom from my Mom: Don't cry over spilt milk. This case is now spilt milk. The case was not sufficiently convincing to get four fairly conservative Justices to say "let's hear it." My two cents. Take it for what two cents will buy ... 1/3 of the sales tax on a dollar purchase in my neck of the woods.

Dan, In my case, I did. Then again, I had the resources to do so I wish for you ALMOST the same thing Lisa does: I hope you become an Owl. BobWhites: They TASTE LIKE CHICKEN!!! Truthfully, I wish for you a Patrol that passes through forming, storming, and norming pretty fast. The relationships are the biggest thing that matter!

As a matter of "sanity check" I update mine annually before the late spring/summer camping seasons. Pedophiles reach into the halls of Congress. It's well worth my time to make sure I am following the latest and best guidance, and that adults I know are doing the same. These are the young men who will be our Nations' leaders when we are old folk. Makes good sense to be right and safe about them.

WHAT BEAVAH SAID!!!

Vicki, What I think you Eastern neighbors of us Kansas City types have done is CRACK THE CODE: - Have two events, - Under district leadership - at a large enough site where there is a "cub family camping area" and a "boy scout camping area" - at a large enough site where there is a "cub program area" and a "boy scout program area" Nothing to me says cubs cannot come and visit troops for a while, or troops cannot go help cubs for a while. Lisa: Reading Chapter 3 of G2SS, do you think someone may take the term "overnighter" to a HARD LITERAL interpretation (such as ONE NIGHT?) ??? YIS

BTW, here's the url to the G2SS (without the frames of the National website) camping chapter: http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html

What fotoscout said. G2SS guidelines below. Note this is boldfaced, or policy level stuff: The Boy Scouts of America has established the following guidelines for its members' participation in camping activities: - Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America. - Tiger Cubs may participate in boy-parent excursions, day camps, pack overnighters, or council-organized family camping. - Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts may participate in a resident overnight camping program operating under BSA National Camping School-trained leadership and managed by the council. Short version: FAMILY CAMPING, meaning 1 parent/1child, unless the parent has multiple children in the unit. I agree with Beavah about temps and dry/wet conditions. It's really easy to get a child sick if he's not properly equipped for 40F and rain!!! YIS

Kudu, I am going to endorse what Lisa'Bob and Crew21_Adv both said. It's probably better for a new unit to Charter out of their organization, and it's certainly a good thing for you and your DE to meet with them. It's also a good thing to flesh out the political issues here. Patriotism is one thing, quids pro quo for the equipment is wholly another. Finally, if your current Chartered Partner believes your unit is really "delivering the promise", STAY WHERE YOU ARE!!! A developed unit, running well, can be relatively low maintenance. A new unit during start-up (even a charter transfer) is high maintenance.

Mr or Ms KC53 Welcome from a fellow member of the Heart of America Council. First, TRAINING!!!! Since you are a new CC, take yourself through: Fast Start Youth Protection New Leader Essentials and the Troop Committee Challenge (Position Specific Training for the Committee) as fast as you can. In HOAC, many Districts offer the TC Challenge as part of the training package, though it's best brought in-house to a troop committee. If you want, PM me, I will give you info on the North Star District Roundtable. We give all these trainings monthly through the program year. As to the Scout in question, you have several options: 1) Do nothing. I do NOT recommend this one. 2) In your authority as CC, reject the BOR and convene a new one. When I was a CC, scheduling and sitting BORs belonged to the advancement coordinator. CHAIRING BORs I reserved to myself. That said, to help the Committee after my tenure, I'd give folks a chance to chair a board under my supervision. 3) Ask your District Advancement Committee chairman to step in and advise or intervene. Trust me, I know two of our Council's district advancement chairs: They won't hesitate to take the advancement for the young man out of your hands if he has been treated unfairly by a unit. I personally recommend solution 2, with 3 being a backup. Now, you as CC and the SM as program officer should be cross-talking regularly. I recommend doing this away from the meeting room. Advancement of boys, by name, should be part and parcel of this. You want to know the SM's thoughts as a conference approaches. If the boy requests a rank advancement BOR against SM desires, the SM most assuredly needs to talk with you in advance. He's the one who signs off on the SM conference. He's the one who usually evaluates Scout Spirit (does the young man uphold the Oath and Law, Motto and Slogan in his daily life away from the Troop?). "There should be no surprises in Scout advancement." That's a piece of gut-check wisdom I've heard time and again, from my District advancement folks as well as from folks here. Again, PM me and I will help find you resources within the great Heart of America Council. YIS.

First, going forward, the Eagle Leadership Service Project Notebook is available for download from the NESA website http://www.nesa.org/trail/manual.html BTW, I googled "Eagle Project Workbook and came up with 500+ hits, more than the first few of which contained the workbook for download. Next, I agree with all nlds, Beavah, and LongHaul. The object is to have EVERYTHING (merit badges, time in rank, Scout Spirit, Leadership Service Project and Scoutmaster Conference) done before the 18th birthday. The understanding my Council has is 0-60 days after the birthday, they will ask no questions on the EBOR date. 60-90 days, they take it to the Council Advancement Committee. 91 days and beyond their interpretation is our SE NOMINATES the candidate to National, and the local nomination is often accepted (not always). Again, beyond 180, it's totally a call in Irving, however their procedure works. Whether your son gets an EBOR or is a "Life for life" is most assuredly in the hands of the folks in Texas.

Lots of issues here, and as always, we don't know the whole truth. CNYScouter is a reliable person, but we're getting his "precis" of the issue. Looks to me like issues involve FOS (family and community), council endowment, council properties endowment (if any), United Way support, and recruitment of youth. If you don't ATTRACT/RETAIN the kids at Cubs and ATTRACT/RETAIN them into Boy Scouting and beyond, then there is little justification in retaining camps! OTOH, if the Council has multiple properties, and there isn't the internal demand for property use, it has several alternatives: 1) Increase usage, including non-BSA activities 2) Relook the facility: If fully developed, does it really need to be so? Is there a greater need to demolish the infrastructure and let the property revert to nature? Both of our Council properties have extensive conservation management plans that are now in place. 3) Do nothing, which doesn't help the deficit. 4) Sell off the properties, which yes, is a one time infusion of capital, but ALSO (depending on the year round costs of the property) reduces Council annual budget by: - Cost of Ranger and maintenance staff - Cost of Full-Time Reservation Director (I'm in a 300 series Council, CNYS may have a DE doing program in the summer, so possibly no savings) - Repairs and routine maintenance of the property itself and the equipment on the property (water/sewer, dining halls, staff village, lakefront boats, ad infinitum). If I were a voting member of this Council, I'd be looking holistically at the entire operations and maintenance cycle of the Council budget, not just one property.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

OGE, I see nothing in the Flag Code, on the Legion website, or the VFW website that says only they can conduct a Flag destruction. My Battalion Commander, back in 1981, had us destroy one during a field problem. His Field color was worn out, he tasked the 3 shop and the CSM to get it done while on FTX. My Dad is a member of American Ex Prisoners of War and American Defenders of Bataan and Corregidor. His Commander in World War II, Colonel Paul Bunker of the 59th Coast Artillery, had a Regimental team destroy most of the Color that flew over Corregidor when the fortress islands surrendered on May 6, 1942 to the Japs. The tiny remnant, sewn into the late Colonel Bunker's shirt (he died in captivity in 1943) is now a relic of honor at West Point! Scouts can and have retired the Color through the years. Instilling the value that our Nation is worth a moment of honor and respect is a worthy thing, even for 8 year olds. Do you have to keep kiddlets standing to attention for 45 minutes? NO!!! The US Code says "with respect." There is nothing that forces people to lock heels; just approach the event with a little less awe than you would attending a High Mass at a Catholic or Lutheran church. Sorry, this IS a hot button!

Trev, The points I wished to make were: The tent is pretty diverse as is. I've only seen outright atheism and agnosticism being outside the tent from the National Council's view. ... and I am asking: What groups are outside the tent that I don't know of? I also understand, there are lots of 1 & 2 church "associations" which are outside PRAY's visibility. I used PRAY because it was a resource to hand. To Kudu: All you have to do is get folks in 218 House Districts and 51 Senators to agree to your proposition. I trust you have a full national organization capable of taking on the charter. Just don't count on my support in your proposal. Thanks, John

I just looked at the PRAY website. Pray lists 50 different religions/denominations for religious awards. Islam is there, Buddhist is there, Judaism is there. OK, I didn't see Shinto or Wiccan. So... outside of a couple of churches which have WITHDRAWN THEIR SUPPORT OF SCOUTING (or BSA has withdrawn the right to wear the religious knot for a particular award), what faith groups are outside the BSA tent? Inquiring minds.

To quote Colonel Sherman T Potter, Cavalry, Medical Corps... Oh, Horsehockey! REALITY CHECK: My first summer camp as a Boy Scout was at that great site of the (then) San Fernando Valley Council, Camp Whitsett. It was July, 1968. Guess what we had as one of our camp campfires? Yessiree, Bob! A FLAG RETIREMENT. What is one of the AIMS OF SCOUTING: GOOD CITIZENSHIP. I say: Teach the youth Have a Flag Retirement as part of a special campfire. Trust me, it sticks with them.

I'm going to reinforce the comment about military installations. Before 9-11, it was pretty easy to get onto a base. Point of fact, many installations were wide open for access. Post 9-11, just getting on a DOD installation is a chore. At my post, if you do not have a DOD sticker, you can expect to: - Show license, registration, and insurance. - Show VALID PHOTO ID for each person in the vehicle. - Unpack the vehicle, and if the troop trailer is taken, unpack it. Overall, I recommend contacting the local Councils enroute for church floors before I'd recommend novices going onto military installations. Now, if you are AT YOUR DESTINATION, and the vehicles are basically empty, going to an installation as a side trip is a different matter, and can be very rewarding. Again, an alternative is to contact troops in the area or resident on the installtion to assist getting through the gate.