John-in-KC

Mr Jeffrey H: I will dispute one comment of yours: "Sadly, the Scout Oath and Law is an outdated concept for today's "cool" people." The word I dispute is "outdated". The values represented in the oath and law are truly for the ages. They were the bedrock of society in Greco-Roman times. I suspect they can be found in the the early Chinese dynasties. No, they are not outdated. Instead, a significant number of our current society simply reject them because they want to take the EASY way, not the RIGHT way. My version of your sentence: "Sadly, the Scout Oath and Law are concepts rejected by today's "cool" people." Thanks for listening.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Orennoah: Do beavers taste like chicken??? John A Good Old Owl Too C-40-05

Orennoah: Do beavers taste like chicken??? John A Good Old Owl Too C-40-05

Ahhh.... Now I see some more of the story. Several someones need to have a long heart-heart talk with your band director. It's not just Scouting, with the cancellations you list, he's doing a dis-service to many folks! Son worked at Scout Camp this summer; in fact had to change assignments to accommodate school band camp.... 1) Camp was announced 1st week of May; he was able to redo work assignments. 2) Football schedule was out 1 June, an area-wide release to all high schools. Of course, what it did was lock in which Fridays were home games. 3) School internal band camp was 31 July-4 August. It happened, 9-4 daily. 4) Pre-season concert was 10 August (Thursday before school started). 5) First parade was 26 August. It happened. 6) First game was 1 September (Labor Day Friday). It happened. 7) Second game was 8 September. It happened. 8) Third game will be 15 September. 9) Second parade will be 16 September AM 10) Eagle COH for 2 young men in the band will be 16 September PM. To me, it sounds like a Scouter needs to run for local Board of Education and start putting heat on the band director to make things happen to standard.

OK, so now I cross the gate of Gilwell Field, get back in my OWL Patrol line, and lustily sing: I used to be an OWL and a Good 'ol OWL too... And now I'm finished OWLing... I don't I don't know what to do... I'm growing old and feeble And I can OWL no more... So I am going to work my ticket if I can... Back to Gilwell, Happy Land! ... I'm going to work my ticket if I can... OK, Mama Bear: It's YOUR TURN!

Oh, to heck with it... Somewhere there's a Fox, and a Good Old Fox Too! But now he's finished Foxing (or at least not actively listening) and he doesn't know what to do! He's growing old and feeble (and deaf or blind) and CANNOT FOX NO MORE so he's going to work his ticket if he can (can he?) Back to Gilwell, happy land, he's going to work his ticket if he can (can he?) Use all your resources... and one of said resources is to roleplay being a fox.

Eamonn, " (I hate that HS Band!!) " Speaking as both a committee member for a Crew, as a COR, and as a band parent, what's up here? You live in small town America, I live in the burbs in Flyover Country. It's kinda sorta a given: Friday night in the Fall is high school football night, and that means the team, the band, the cheerleaders, the dance team, the baton twirlers, flag girls, ad infinitum. Rather than hating the band, may I suggest you delight that so many of your young men and women have artistic talent, like having healthy and safe fun, and are learning something to boot? In our school's band, the percentage of Eagle Scouts and GSUSA Gold Awards is actually higher within the band than in the general population. These are kids who have some drive. I'm sorry, E, I'm really upset over this. Have you thought of organizing a Crew that leverages the band student council and the parents organization? John

Ms scoutmom, Welcome to electron Gilwell Field, where you may or may not find the other patrols, so it seems. I keep a copy of... Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness ... handy when I'm waiting on the Eagles and the Foxes. I want to sing the OWL verse, so you can sing the BEAR verse.

Lisa, Frankly, the bait I'm using now is: Make new friends. I went out-of-Council for WB. Had I gone in-Council, I would have known well over half the class. Going out, I met new folks! The other advantage of going out-of-Council was I was able to find a course that matched my available time. . Make new and different friends. Good idea

Scoutmom, First CONGRATULATIONS!!! Have fun working your ticket. Want to get the CD's UNDIVIDED attention? I caution you, this is vindictive: Send a letter of record, registered mail, return receipt, to your SE, Council President, Training Chairman and CD. Compliment the SPL (who apprarently DOES understand the sylabbus, and if I understand the procedures of WB, is the CD-Designate). Lay the issues on the line, and demand your money back. Professionals do not like having to give money back

Several specific comments: Lisa, I think others who've commented on the lack of quality in your Council's camp are right. The PLC needs to have a hard conversation with the Scoumaster about next years' LT camp. A letter, over the COR's signature needs to go to the Council President, cc the SE. Short, sweet, to the point, explain why you intend to take your business elsewhere. At the same time, work through your District and Council Advancement Committees, and let them know your units' displeasure. LH and CP: A Scout is Trustworthy. While it's not his fault if the system does not deliver, the Scouting AIM of Citizenship trumps rules, regulations, and procedures within the METHOD of advancement. I agree with the others who would have a quiet, friendly talk with the young men concerned. I'd also be pitching a storm with the Counselor concerned, complaining to the District/Council Advancement committee about qualities of said Counselor, AND doing what I recommended to Lisa. The Council will probably go into "defensive" mode, I suspect the young man will recognize he's been had and want to do the right thing. Finally, as a unit Advancement Chairman: I'm the one who cuts the Advancement Report for the SM to sign. If there is a genuine integrity issue involving a Counselor, I'll drop the whole shebang in the District/Council Advancement Chairman's lap. He/she has the authority to over-ride the refusal of a unit to accept/award for work done. The District and Council advancement people I know are men and women of honor. They get the extra zeroes on their Scouting paycheck ... I'll let them submit the report over us.

I am really confused about something here. E, your starting post in this thread referred to the "last years Ranger." In my Council, both Reservation Rangers are longstanding members of the Professional Service. One is an architect by training, the other is a multi-skilled construction tradesman. Both are of long service and well-respected. Both understand the Scouting program intimately and give their professional lives to serve it. "Last years Ranger." This implies the gentleman in question is no longer an employee of BSA. If so, he's just like any other volunteer. Further, he's without formal authority on your reservation. It seems to me that if there is as big a storm over this issue as you wrote, the SE should just bar him from the property. That solves the problem of the former rangers' informal authority and his willingness to violate the Scout Law. As I recall, you live and camp well above the Mason-Dixon line. I think some quiet questions through Commissioner and Chartered Partner channels, about the whys' and wherefores of flying Confederate States of America flags, are in order. There may be a true and innocent reason. There may be a lack of understanding what the various CSA flags mean. There may even be, malice aforethought, some attitudes about race and equality which demand adult confrontation with the youth. After all, one of the Aims of Scouting is Citizenship!

Ahh, more information. As several of us have noted over time, we never have all of the story here. They've been to scout camp with their son, and they've had Fast Start. Great. They're not ready to have a "Trained" strip on their shirts yet. Since they went to camp, I assume they are registered Scouters. If not, register them. Put them in as Members of the Committee (MC). Why? The Scoutmaster can ask them to leave the program area The program is his, the support is the Committee's Get them trained. Give them things to do. Those things need not be in front of the youth. I have not met the CC who cannot locate needed work in his area. Are all the tents seam-sealed? Hold them accountable for results in their lane. We want their energy, desire, dedication and enthusiasm. Even if they want to hijack the Troop, we want their energy... It just has to be channeled. One of two things will eventually happen: They'll become team players or they'll walk away. Remember, the working democracy of a Troop is down with the youth. Leader selection is top down from the IH and COR. The committee is a support organization. It can (and properly should) give a certain amount of guidance to the SM and SPL, but that guidance is pretty big broad brush stuff.

In my Troop, everybody pays.

B-P was a Cavalryman! I think he would have thought the Professional Service was worth Scouting out... before the attack got launched.

Once again, As I understand the rules, once the rank has been reported on an Advancement Report, the deal is done. If someone has a better understanding than I, please, please, cite your source!!! I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but I recommend, ASM59, you tread lightly going forward. It's neither slander nor libel if you tell the truth, but be certain you are telling the truth vis a vis the Scout and what he didn't do. Do you want the risk of parents suing you ??? It's glaringly obvious there's need for lots of training in this unit.

GIVEN: For the most part, we understand that when BSA issues the annual "Requirements" book on Jan 1, that we need to scrub it for changes to any merit badges we counsel. However, if you look over at the US Scouts website, you find this wonderful page: http://usscouts.org/usscouts/advance/boyscout/advchanges06a.html "When there is a conflict between two published lists of requirements, such as the Requirements Book and a Merit Badge Pamphlet, the Requirements Book should be considered to be the controlling document, until a newer edition of the Requirements Book is issued, EXCEPT when the pamphlet has a later issue date. "BSA has been updating ALL of the merit badge books over the past few years. As of January 1, 2006, only 10 of the pamphlets had editions issued before January 1, 1999 and the requirements for only 12 merit badges had remained completely unchanged during that period. As new pamphlets are issued, when they contain new requirements, Scouts will have the option of starting with the new requirements as soon as the pamphlets are issued, or they may start work using the old requirements until the next edition of Boy Scout Requirements (BSA Publication No. 33215) is issued. "BSA will NOT hold the publications up until January each year. Instead, they will issue them as they are completed (and old stocks are exhausted, probably). Then in January, the Requirements Book will include all revisions to date." (boldface is only to denote the quotation) WHAT A BUNCH OF GOBBLEDYGOOK. Sometimes, simple minds need simple words BTW, when was the last time National released a MB pamphlet ahead of the requirements cycle recently??? OK, here's the question: If you're a District Advancement Committee Member or Chairman, an area head at Scout Camp, or an advancement coordinator in a unit, how the heck do you interpret the above and manage change??? I am truly confuddled on this one.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Well, I've learned a few things working my ticket... ... we're never gonna be done working our ticket ... ... we need to keep our minds open and explore Scouting, because we never know where we'll find an activity that gets our interest ... ... when we find our interest, explore it in some detail, and share it with either other adults (preferably ones who are front-line in-unit leaders) or the youth themselves ... ... occasionally there is drudge work that has to be done. If, however, we find the work unfulfilling or unrewarding, we need to consider change ... So, come sometime next week, I'll know if I'm really done or not! Any lessons others have learned? John Hoot! Hoot Owls! Owl Patrol, C-40-05

Scoutmom: I don't know if it will help much. Here is the ticket format I used, which my TG bought into. I've copied it straight from the email where I proposed the item to my TG: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ VISION: The YYY District Roundtable is transitioning locations to increase its ability to serve metro Scouters. GOAL: By the end of the 2005-6 program year, the RT is fully settled in its new location. Normal physical arrangements are standardized. Assistance and help for 1st timers to any of the RT activities is up and running. Support for the District Committee, professionals, and presenters is available. CRITERIA USING THE SMART ACRONYM: - Specific: This ticket item involves taking the unknown (how does the YYY District, ZZZ Council, fit into its new Roundtable facility (AAA Church) and making arrangements for setup/teardown, and pre-opening to be KNOWN. It is less specific in that we need "the good idea fairy" to show us what works and what doesn't. - Measurable: Our RT commissioner is starting year 4 of her tenure. Our Ventruing RT commissioner earned his Doctor of Commissioner Service with a thesis on roundtable operations. They will know, in their gut, when we are "at home" in our new house. - Attainable: Not all things we WANT to do will be attainable. Resistance from the Cub RT commissioner may make "Wal-Mart Greeters" an impossibility, or it may be a sole burden of the Boy Scout side of RT. Figuring out what gives the best payoff in terms of people and resources is key to this item. - Relevant: Roundtable used to be in a one-story with basement church. It's now in a 3 1/2 story church with 4 major meeting rooms and 20 possible breakout rooms. Getting ourselves to a standard operation is absolutely essential. - Time based: The District Roundtable will continue for some years at this facility, but we need to have "our act together" no later than the end of the 1st program year after we occupy the new building (in other words, June 2006).

I have to agree with Crew 21 Advisor. Where was the advancement coordinator in all this? Above and beyond the handbook, a quick records check would show the young man had not been to a SM conference. Further, a call from the CC, whom I assume chairs BORs (or else the Advancement Coordinator) to the SM saying "is this young man ready for his BOR?" is certainly in order. ACTIVE LISTENING, folks. We have to SEND information to each other about the youth; equally we have to RECEIVE and PROCESS it. Mom should never again be allowed to sit a BOR. As far as the rank goes, the CC can have a discussion with the District Advancement Chair, but from all my experience, adults screwing up by the numbers is NOT a considered reason to withdraw rank. Sounds to me like the SM, CC, and Advancement Coordinator need to go offsite, have a cup of coffee together, map out a united position, and then present it to the ASM's, Committee, and non-Committee adults as a fait accompli.

1) Parental orientation in the unit. 2) Fast Start. Have an ASM or MC discuss "what they learned" afterward. 3) Youth Protection, preferably in person vice the online. Have an ASM or MC discuss "what they learned" afterward. 4) Merit Badge Counselor training. Everyone has a unique skillset. Have an ASM or MC discuss "what they learned" afterward. 5) New Leader Essentials. Have an ASM or MC discuss "what they learned" afterward. 6) Scoutmaster Fundamentals or Troop Committee Challenge. For that matter, take the whole Committee through the challenge, that was what Lisa'Bob did! 7) Outdoor Leader. That will keep them busy for a few months. Make sure they buy their uniforms and set them up properly. The object of all this is two-fold: You WANT their energy and dedication. We want it supporting the aims and methods of the program. Give them a trail they can follow, and let them ramp up to being fully productive adults supporting our programs. Further, you keep them busy even while their son is getting settled in.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

GOOGLE!!! What a resource. Here are some tools for your toolbox: http://usscouts.org/aboutbsa/bsaorg.html http://www.scouting.org/relationships/04-113/ http://www.tac-bsa.org/chartered_org_rep_syllabus.pdf www.tac-bsa.org/cor_training.ppt Additionally the Alleghany Highlands Council will offer District Committee and COR training Jan 15, 2007. I've scratched the surface here, you can help your Chartered Partner help itself by finding them more info!!! (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Kichkinet, We just had our Fall induction weekend. We had 3 groups of 60 go through Brotherhood. They used the Nemat Hike method. As an adult, I believe my Lodge has a challenge here... the folks who supervise the work day crews (many of whom hold the Vigil) are not the ones who then take the hike. They go out and go back to other projects. While that is good for the camp, I'm not sure we dis-serve the Ordeal members seeking the Brotherhood. To my simple mind, we who serve as Nemats, especially on the adult side, should lead a work crew appropriate to our skills, then go with them on the hike. Leading the work crew would allow us to ask the traditional "Brotherhood knowledge" questions in a non-threatening, NOT pass-fail environment. We can make sure members know the handshake, the Admonition, and the Obligation. We can share the story of the Ordeal, helping the members seeking to seal by recounting the pieces and parts. Finally, I was specifically commenting to Vicki's post, which implied her Lodge either has not yet adopted the Nemat program, or has abandoned it.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Good news and Bad News, Vicki, First, the good news: CONGRATULATIONS. You'll find the Brotherhood Ceremony well worth it. Really DO spend quality time writing your letter to the Secretary of the Lodge. BAD NEWS: IRVING, WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!! Your Lodge is still doing Brotherhood Interviews? National rolled out the Nemat program and the Brotherhood Hike at least three years ago now. Playig "stump the chump" with Ordeal members to make sure they "knew" the questionaire should be as dead as the passenger pigeon.

Half a league, half a league, Half a league onward, All in the valley of Death Rode the six hundred. "Forward, the Light Brigade! "Charge for the guns!" he said: Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred. 2. "Forward, the Light Brigade!" Was there a man dismay'd? Not tho' the soldier knew Someone had blunder'd: Their's not to make reply, Their's not to reason why, Their's but to do and die: Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred. 3. Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon in front of them Volley'd and thunder'd; Storm'd at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well, Into the jaws of Death, Into the mouth of Hell Rode the six hundred. 4. Flash'd all their sabres bare, Flash'd as they turn'd in air, Sabring the gunners there, Charging an army, while All the world wonder'd: Plunged in the battery-smoke Right thro' the line they broke; Cossack and Russian Reel'd from the sabre stroke Shatter'd and sunder'd. Then they rode back, but not Not the six hundred. 5. Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon behind them Volley'd and thunder'd; Storm'd at with shot and shell, While horse and hero fell, They that had fought so well Came thro' the jaws of Death Back from the mouth of Hell, All that was left of them, Left of six hundred. 6. When can their glory fade? O the wild charge they made! All the world wondered. Honor the charge they made, Honor the Light Brigade, Noble six hundred.