John-in-KC

As if that's not bad enough, we just had a POLITICIAN put his Eagle COH portrait in his campaign literature, AND place a mug with our Council CSP emblazoned on it prominently in his TV ad. Called one of the SE's deputies at Council ... he was a mite upset. Don't know if anything happened.

Lisa, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you vis a vis Bill Clinton. A senior leader, be he military, civil, or business, needs to be able to formulate and clearly articulate his vision. Bill's marathon speeches (Inaguration 1, Inaguration 2, and seven States of the Union) failed the "clear articulation" test. Give us an idea we can wrap our hands, heads, and hearts around. Use other communication tools to state the various elements which turn the vision to the reality. For everyone else: I HAVE VOTED (838AM Central). HAVE YOU?

I just looked at our Council's dowloadable for the ELSP workbook. Four signatures are required: 1) Benefitting organization rep. 2) Scoutmaster OR Coach OR Advisor (depending on membership of youth). 3) Committee Chairman 4) Council or District Representative (from the text: "council or district advancement committee") Sooo... to my way of thinking, the DAC has some degree of influence in the quality of product presented to him. As far as oldsm's initial post to this thread goes, there are two basic ways for him to influence the action: A) He needs to get himself onto the Council Advancement Committee. B) Convince enough COR's to raise a "vote of no confidence in the Council Advancement Committee" at the council annual business meeting.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

scoutldr, That's why we as citizens have the duty to gather information before silly season arrives.

scoutldr, That's why we as citizens have the duty to gather information before silly season arrives.

Eagle Scout son spent 9 hours this weekend at local party offices doing "get out the vote" call bank! My problem is I know both sides have crooks running for office. After all, Pendergast is part of Kansas City history!

Pete, It's not necessarily an aesthetics issue, to me, it's a communication issue. I'm nearsighted, -7 diopters +, and have some astigmatism. Someday, I will have to deal with cataracts (Mom and Dad both had a history). The issue of the background was that it was difficult, at best, for me to read the white lettering... it was competing with the background.

Do we need to introduce the advancement system, or do we let the youth play the "Grand Game" for a while? If the PLC is doing what it should, the "things of Scouting" needed for advancement, especially to First Class, should take care of themselves... Beyond First Class, there may need to be some mentorship to introduce the concept of "following a road map you create, at least in part", but doesn't that support the "Adult Association" method as well as the Advancement method?

"I despise what Ive been forced to do by anothers action" If I only knew our leadership did despise their own choices...(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I was 13 years, 6 or 7 months old at my Ordeal. In retrospect, I probably should have been held back one year. I'm not sure I got the concept, even after the ceremony. I've helped our membership advisors key data into our Lodge database; I've seen young men who are not yet 12 who have undertaken the Ordeal. I wonder, but the vote is no longer mine, and has not been for 29 years. If an age requirement were to be imposed, that is the call of the National Chief and his leadership. If not, we adults are charlatans about the "youth run" aspects of the Lodge. As far as with-holding a Scout from the eligibility list, that's a Scoutmaster's call. I just hope SM's use that discretion wisely.

Benjamin Franklin's quote keeps running in my mind. I consider myself conservative Republican, and this makes me heartsick. America is supposed to be about doing the RIGHT thing, not the easy or convenient thing. This to me is Orwellian. I may yet change my mind about my votes come Tuesday.

jwmerica, Let me also welcome you to our campfire. The coffee and cocoa pots are just far enough away to be hot but off the boil. There are elements of Scouting which are PRESCRIPTIVE (G2SS) comes to mind, elements which are descriptive (the Methods of the programs come to mind, although they have elements of prescriptiveness too), and elements which are just plain fun... Playing "zing the beret" is one of the fun elements for more than a few of us. Trev, your Texan is showing ... but a wide brimmed straw hat is indeed one of the coolest forms of headgear for summertime wear. I've found a place online which does a straw campaign hat. I'm seeing if they have it in natural or khaki color, vice the green my father wore in the summer of 41.

Done and done well Mark!!!

Berets. A classic example of form over function. Give me a boonie hat in the spring and summer, and a watch cap in the late fall and winter! DING DONG THE BERET IS DEAD...THE BERET IS DEAD...THE BERET IS DEAD...(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Mr PNScouter, I admire your sense of priorities. At the same time, participation in the life of your OA lodge can be as much or as little as you make it be. I'll definitely encourage you to undertake the Ordeal at an early date. Why? Simple: I believe knowledge of the values the Order inculcates are worthy elements in the growth and maturity of young men.

Jeffrey, Anything and everything about the Order is available through the Professional Service. If a SCOUTER, PARENT, PASTOR, RABBI, TEACHER... has a genuine question, from the Ordeal to the Vigil, they need only contact the Council SE (who is the Supreme Chief of the Fire for the Lodge) or the Staff Advisor to the Lodge (usually the executive responsible for the Council Scout Reservation). That we keep it from Scouts who are not yet members is designed to appeal to their sense of the unknown. That the tasks and ceremonies are the same for adults as for children is because OA is, first and foremost, part of the Boy Scouting program. They are designed to enhance and support the youth experience. We adults are simply advisors.

Barry, I think you're onto something. At work, we all have tasks we have to do. Some are rote. Some require thought and planning. Most require some degree of training before we do them on our own. All tend to get easier the more often we do them. To me, the tasks of the advancement system, reinforced by practice from the activity of the program, are a tool to instill the work ethic in people. At the same time, I really like what you say about character development. Even the older teens sometimes do not get something. My son, a 17 YO Eagle, had a bit of a struggle last night understanding that folks expect him to be a friendly sort (from his very nature), and do not understand him when he gets testy. More food for thought

Ed, Sadly, I think that chart was ill designed, and thus, you are reading it wrong. From what I can see, the color blocks represent GUIDELINES DISCOURAGING, the black space represents PERMISSIBLES. I find interesting: - As we discussed in other places, Camporees are now "Visit Only" for Webelos. - Winter camping is now discouraged for the entire Cub program, Tiger to Webelo. Does anyone know the breakpoint between "initiative games" and the low course activities of COPE?

Congratulations to both!!! One specific comment (feedback is a gift! )... The powerpoints each TG uses at the breakouts in the first weekend. Consider, seriously consider, not using the BSA Woodbadge background with white print, rather using black lettering on a plain white background. I found the Woodbadge powerpoint slide master background very distracting and hard to read. I found the TG copy (black on white) far easier to read. John

I used to be an OWL (HOOT HOOT) And a Good Old OWL too... But now I've finished OWLing (HOOT HOOT) And I don't know what to do! I'm growing old and feeble AND I CAN OWL NO MORE!!! So I'm going to work my ticket if I can... Back to Gilwell, Happy Land! I'm going to work my ticket if I can... OK, Bears, it's your turn John Wise Owls, C-40-05

Here in the US, there appear to be substantial differences between the BSA program and the GSUSA program. I just read the Girl Scout oath and Law as presented at wikipedia. Words matter, and there is substantial difference between what young men declare and what young women declare. To me, the Girl Scout declarations are inside "shades of gray." Boy Scoutings declarations, particularly the Scout law, are black and white! Is that true in other countries?

My Lodge had a superb annual patch a couple of years back. Dream catcher, with the feathers (each feather its own patch) representing Winter Banquet, Induction Weekends, Workdays, and Fall Fellowship. That's what's on my sons red jacket, instead of the standard OA patch. He entered the Tribe of Mic-o-Say in 2004, our 75th anniversary. There was a special patch that year for that event. That's also on his jacket. He's also been to Philmont, so he's got the bull

I want to revisit this topic, away from the issue of any one item, and more to the context of training youth and parents about equipment. When I was a youth member of BSA, Colin Fletcher had just written The Complete Walker. He lays out the issues of camping and backpacking clearly and succinctly, especially in that 1st edition. I still read mine. Equipment has to answer to several questions: - Temperature regime of the local area. A Scout in southern California needs equipment for +25F to +100F until he does a winter camp in the Sierra Nevada, where his temp range might drop to 0F. Contrast that to a Scout in Hawaii, who may not see the wrong side of +45F. Contrast THAT to a Scout here in Flyover Country, where the range is -20F to +100F. - Precipitation regime of the local area. That Scout in southern California will encounter far more rain than snow. The Scout in Hawaii will see rain almost exclusively. The Scout here in KC needs good rain gear and good snow gear. - Transportation. LIGHT WEIGHT GEAR COSTS MONEY. Units and people camping in frontcountry do not need as light of gear as folks going to backcountry, where every ounce counts. Beyond that, there are any number of excellent lists for what should go in the backpack/duffelbag/patrol box. I still use the 1965 boy scout handbook for my packing list. Others will choose differently (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

1) The old Cub Scout training motto: KISMIF. Decide exactly what the desired characteristics are for your audience. TAILOR your training to their knowledge and experience level. A parent becoming a Scouter, who is at the New Leader Essentials level of knowledge needs and merits basics. Give him and her exactly that. If you elect to take that "becoming a Scouter" parent, and expose him/her to the depths of arcane knowledge and Indian Lore about CSPs, and you risk losing them to the movement forever. A more advanced course, perhaps for a UOS, a roundtable special feature, or Commissioner's College can go into deeper detail. 2) In light with the water-wicking demo, do a fire demo. Put a match to: - Nylon of the weight used for the new shorts. - Poly/cotton of the weight now used for trousers. - Cotton of blue jeans - WOOL! Three of these fabrics will require water and/or a fire extinguisher at hand. The wool won't. I hope the BSA standard fabrics are treated with fire retardent, but I'm not betting on it. 3) POWERPOINT? POWERPOINT??? The most effective training is hands-on! Leave the puter at home. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

gwd... Mentorship, mentorship, and more mentorship. Adult Association is as much a Method of Scouting as is Advancement. The object of the exercise, for us Scouters, is to make the Grand Game result in young adults better prepared to assume their stations in life. Sometimes, I think we don't spend enough time coaching, challenging, and encouraging the youth. We worry about the discipline problems, and do not spend the time we need to with the great kids. What's the old adage? We spend 80% of our time on 20% of our kids (usually the problems??).... Use Scoutmaster Conferences and Boards of Review. Check in with the youth, frequently. ENCOURAGE them to talk to those who can sign them off, especially if the skill is already "in hand." At the same time, encourage them to enjoy the journey. There are lots of trails to explore in Boy Scouting, particularly when a young man has achieved First Class (such as OA). For Lisa: One encouragement for your son is there things he cannot do along the Scouting trail until he is First Class ... such as stand for election to OA candidacy.