John-in-KC

Remember that one of the purposes of a BOR is an internal feedback ("it's a gift!) loop between the Committee and the SM. Let's suppose several BORs result in Committee members having a gut opinion that the quality of training/approval is below par. Their feedback to a SM can be a trigger for adjustments in program delivery. The SM, as a result of feedback, may choose to: - Clarify the standards expected for sign-off of program elements for advancement. - Actively mentor a Scout holding a POR, if there is a consistent single point of failure. - Choose to allow credit for the POR if the mentoring isn't working. We have to remember that Advancement is a Method of Scouting. As such, it is interdependent of the other Methods, including (but not limited to) Outdoors, Adult Association, Leadership Development, and Personal Growth. Just my thoughts

Please pardon me for being insensitive, but: Why didn't the leaders of this Pack follow the Guide to Safe Scouting? http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss12.html#b The beds of trucks or trailers must never be used for carrying passengers. As always, policy of the National Council is boldfaced. A "float" is another word for a trailer. From what I read, this young man was a free-riding passenger, not safety belted. Granted, most hometown trailers don't have belts the way the floats at the Rose or Orange Bowl parades do, but that's why the policy is there. The biggest tragedy? This death was not necessary. My heart goes out to the family. I hope the Pack leaders share the nightmares they'll be having with other units ... so this accident isn't repeated. YIS

Sue, You can hold a Scoutmaster's Conference at any time, for any reason. It's part of that wonderful Adult Association Method of Scouting. If the only issue you had with the boy was finishing tenure in rank and in POR, then I see no reason not to have a word with the advancement coordinator or CC and say "he'll be ready right as soon as he asks after the 6 month mark." OTOH, if there is mentorship to be done, either in incomplete requirements, quality of POR service, or Scout Spirit in his daily life, then have however many visits with the Scout as you need, until he's ready

LongHaul, At the end of the day, the buck stops with the Chartered Partner. The CP Organization is where the liability insurance provided by BSA is designed to give full cover. The Chartered Partner, in return, is expected to recruit leaders and youth and execute the Scouting Programs per the various guidelines set forth by the National Council. In both a Troop and a Crew, the authority of the youth leadership to design, coordinate, and implement the program is a delegated authority per the Charter Agreement (that clause about executing the Scouting Program...). That authority comes with responsibility: - Events must conform to G2SS. Generally the SM overwatch ensures this ... - Events must be paid for. This means fundraising efforts within the rules of Scouting, or the old, "Dad, may I have...?" method. - Events must be supportable logistically. East Coast PLC which decides their annual trek is to be along the Pacific Crest Trail may find their parents balking at 8 days of driving time (RT) + the trek time, and may have to find other transport ... which leads right back to events must be paid for. We talk a lot about PLC as the decisionmaking body of a unit, but the fact is their authority is constrained by their responsiibilities, just as any republican form of governments' governing body is!!!

OT, To your last... Works for meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..... Frankly, I'd spend a lot more time helping units get 2-3 leaders and 2-3 youth BSA Lifeguard qualified so they can have a year round aquatics program IAW G2SS. John who is currently out of certification as a BSA lifeguard.

My "ideal course"??? My ideal course probably would be about two years long, one weekend a month, with at least one long encampment every summer. Tell you what, let's cut to the chase: Get a copy of the 9th Edition (1965) of the Boy Scout handbook. Start there. Update only for technology, physiological safety (ie comments about tanned boys are healthy boys), and conservation of natural resources (no more browse beds). Start with a fixed site; advance to backpacking "house on your back". It took me, as a Boy Scout, with 5 years of annual car camping under my belt, 3 years to be really comfortable in any weather. My training came in quite handy when I went off to a career in the Army.

Pete, I'm going to respectfully disagree with your premise. I'm going to disagree because the lessons extracted from the ELSP are about how to explicitly design, coordinate, resource and execute a project. To me, those, and their intents, are wholly different from the Woodbadge ticket, which from my observation as a student is designed to be an orientation to lifelong servant leadership. Could be worse ... we could be back discussing sod surfing I still cannot get over that one

Eagle in KY spoke words of pure gold when he said: "When I look back on mine (and I've done both), the Eagle project seemed to be a much more daunting task. If I were to do them both today, maybe the ESLP would be easier. But given where I was in my personal development, the ESLP was, by far, the more challenging experience." I'm not an Eagle. Didn't get there. Different story. Think about it a second. A young man, doing his first major project, having to assert himself, having to plan, adjust, present, coordinate, find resources, and then LEAD. Heavens, yes, no matter how simple the project is, he is going to extract lesson after lesson! That's major muscle group stuff for a 13-17 year old Completing the ELSP and completing it well should be a moment of victory for a young man. The EBOR, imo, is a true pinnacle of youth. It's a LIFELONG, DEFINING moment. It properly should rate with ones' Wedding day, or the birth of children. I've had multiple defining moments in my life: I have to be honest, Woodbadge is important, but it does not rate as a defining moment.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I don't see anything that says "only in a Scouting context." Have the young men do the daily flag ceremony: - At school, either at the Flagpole or in their classrooms. - At a church/synagogue business meeting. - At a business meeting of your chartered partner. - At the beginning of a Little League/Pop Warner game. Can others think of other suitable places?

OTOH, Who is going to care besides Uniform Pharisees?

I sometimes wonder what our parents had to deal with when they were Scouters and we were the Scouts. I have to agree with Eamonn, I'd like to see Scout units be places of calm for young men and women struggling with relationships, lust, puppy love, and "rest of their lives" love. Son is part of a 140 piece HS marching band, which splits into two 70 piece symphonic bands for the rest of the school year. I see waaayyy too many youngsters "doing the grope" even at school. As far as the Eagle candidate which brought us here, well, Ed Mori, I'd have a huge hard time sitting an EBOR if he was a parent and unwed. Something about Loyalty, Helpful, and Brave...

SSScout: 5) The trail to Eagle itself has been modified over the years. I was a youth member from 1968 to 1974 (a bit after 11 to a bit after 17). For STAR: 5 Merit Badges, ONE must be Eagle Required. For LIFE: 10 Merit Badges, FOUR must be Eagle Required. The Scout has a substantial uphill portion of his trail to Eagle. Look at our current (2000) requirements: For STAR: 6 Merit Badges, FOUR must be Eagle Required. For LIFE: 11 Merit Badges, SEVEN must be Eagle Required. The program is designed to have the Scout at trails crest and looking downhill as he achieves Life. Is it possible to make Life and not be at the crest of the trail? Yes. Suppose a Scouts MB list is: Swimming, Lifesaving, First Aid, Emergency Prepardness, Environmental Science, Bicycling, and Hiking. The young man has managed to max out both "pick one" categories in the Eagle List. He still has to earn: Citizenship in the Community/Nation/World Camping Communications Environmental Science Family Life Personal Fitness Personal Management Here the Scout has a total of nine Eagle Required MBs to earn, and yet he is Life. That's an uphill battle. 6) We have far more in-troop merit badge counselors. When I was a Scout, I do not remember taking any merit badges from my troop adults. We took First Aid from a local dentist. Can't remember who I took hiking from, but I remember failing Camping on the firsr pass because I couldn't throw a diamond hitch. These days, is there a Scout Reservation in the Nation that does not offer Camping as a routine part of the program? 7) Scout camps themselves are designed to get more merit badges in the time you're there. When I was a Scout, NRA youth marksmanship medals were part of the process. Every troop went to the range for an orientation shoot, both with rifle and shotgun. Fundamentals of weapons safety was NOT an option. It was bloody near 1:1 ratio of shooters to staffers, too. Are things better? Worse? Just different? IMO, the redesign of advancement is an improvement. Having watched a few young men achieve Eagle now, the plethora of in-troop counselors probably is not an improvement, we've diluted Adult Association (otoh, youth safety is a far higher concern than it was in the late 60s). Camp programs? They're probably just different. My thoughts.

Thirty areas where a man or woman feels he has a particular expertise and passion. That sure seems to be a lot. What is a suitable number? Not sure of that either. Our Council, though, limits us to five. For Lisa: I'd recommend keeping at least a couple of the "rarely obtained" merit badges. You never know when you'll be a resource to a young Scout (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

There are three other, fundamental differences between an Eagle Leadership Service Project and a Woodbadge ticket item: First... The ELSP, from my experience, is designed to extract lessons of planning, coordination, and management. It is often the first time a young man has to think about a process in getting something from idea to completion. The Woodbadger working his ticket items, I would hope, is generally an experienced adult. He or she has executed projects before in life. He or she can visualize and state the steps needed to make the project happen. Second... The ELSP is designed to have the Scout be the explicit leader. Others are looking to him for guidance. Though his team is ad hoc and will dissolve when the project is done, it is a new team. Woodbadge ticket items may have the Scouter being an implicit leader, working inside a team. He is applying skills and expertise to an existing framework, not creating a new framework. Third... ELSPs, by advancement policy, "should benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting." Woodbadge ticket items by their very nature improve the unit, the District, and the local Council.

One technique I've seen used is having older teens of the Troop have some of these discussions. Amazing, but parents do listen to 17 yo Eagles and Life Scouts closing in on Eagle. These young men, and the tales they tell of their trails, are great for demonstrating that Boy Scouting is a journey, not a race.

To Vicki and Eager Beaver Staffer SueM In my course we were challenged to look at where we were and where we wanted to go as Scouters in developing our tickets. I think that's why we the ticket writing becomes so intensely personal. Sue, in my cycle, our CD used the KISS method: TG was also our counselor, and saw us through, beginning to end. To ladyleader: Time to take WB is always a challenge. Do not worry though, if this years cycle isn't a fit to your schedule. I suspect you will find there are other Councils, or clusters of Councils, offering woodbadge. For the sheer networking aspects, I strongly believe folks should take WB away from their home Council. I see Jack, Beth, Sue, Bill, Mark and Jeff anywhere from daily to monthly. Going outside that circle of friends gave me new insights, new perspectives, and new resources to draw upon.

Trevorum, I spent a couple of mornings of my life in Lawton, Murica! (aka Fortress Sill). Yes, winters can be a challenge, partiuclarly for the elderly. That said, most of Texas is South of the Red River. Talk quietly with your Eagle. Ask him about grandma. Ask him for input on how to keep her warm. He might have an A-HA moment and slip the COH more towards late Feb/early March. BTW, congratulations to him, for carrying it through, and congratulations to you.

I think the challenges come down to this: 1) Have the adult leaders done their job along a Scouts' trail to Eagle? If a young man is at risk, there needs to be lots of mentorship ... some of it may need to be placed in a SM's/CC's personal papers. 2) Do the adult leaders of a unit have a good working relationship with: - Their COR? - Their UC? - The DC? - The District Advancement Chairman? - The District Chairman? The District Chairman and the District Commissioner have access to the Council Heavy Hitters (Executive Board and Council Commissioner), and the District Advancement Chair had jolly well better have access to the Council Advancement Chair! If in spite of all this, the young man makes Eagle, then its time for the COR to express his displeasure with the Scouting program at the annual business meeting, and in other opportunities!

Gonzo, I've read your posts in the thread "What is WB All About?" What follows is my opinion, derived from my assessment of your posts. Im sorry you perceive the current Wood Badge curriculum being a failure. By reasonable extension, the message I have received from you is that myself and other Woodbadgers of the past 6 years are not acceptably trained Scouters. Sir, neither you nor I, on this Forum, can change the course content of 21st Century Wood Badge. It was developed by folks down in Irving, with input across the Nation. If you want to change the curriculum and course content of Wood Badge, get on the National Training Committee, or one of the Regional Training Committees. You might even be able to do it (but I'm skeptical of this) from being a Council Training Chairman. Right now, my perception of the message THEME received from you is "None of you who've taken Wood Badge in the past six years have anything worthy to contribute to Scouting." Yes, from everything I've read, you do not think my six days of coursework, 4 evenings of meeting with my Patrol, and year plus of working my (first) ticket are worth anything. Feedback is a gift. Read the above closely, Sir. Look at those of us who've given time and effort to Scouting, to serve our youth, to improve ourselves by taking time for WB. Do you really mean to denigrate us and what we do by denigrating the training Scouting makes available to us? YIS (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Wow. Did you give a lot of info for recommendations here. 1) Leverage the Troop Scribe. Have him maintain a wall chart of basic advancement to First Class. Have him be the 1st guy Scouts see after getting a blue card from the SM. Let him be responsible for the feeder data on advancement. 2) BUY TROOPMASTER (ok, you get a choice, whatever information management system for Scouting you want ;-) ). Aggressively work with the Scribe to stay on top of advancements. 3) If your Council has rolled out internet advancement, use it. If not, you have a choice of the TM comma delimted data on a floppy, or cross-decking the output to a rtf format Word document (Hit me in PM, I can send you one of those). I find the clerks at Council are more accurate when they don't have to decipher handwriting. 4) Rather than having SM conferences with parents and Scouts, just have them with the Scouts. THEN, have SM communicate privately, amongst adults, with the parents ... if he feels he needs to. 5) Training, training, training, and more training. Ensure the SM and his ASMs are fully trained. Ensure they attend Roundtable and share good news with other units. Ensure the Committee takes TC Challenge. For you, spend time over a cup of coffee with the District Advancement Chairman. (It'll be worth it when it comes time to prep Eagle Projects for district approval). 6) Help the youth find a goal that will re-energize them. There are many high-adventure opportunities across the Nation. It's not too late to start planning something instead of "Camp Swampy" for next summer. 7) The old folk are gone. Just go forward. It's not worth your emotional time and energy. Have fun doing this.

HS, As a Life for Life (oh, 33 years now), and as the Dad of an Eagle, One reason to finish the job is ... it shows people who do not know you that you can FINISH A JOB. My son is your age/grade peer. Right now he's looking at some music he bought for music festivals this Spring. Completing Eagle... ... gave him a chance to do something rewarding with people he cares for ... ... gave him a chance to spend an evening with adults he truly cares for (a senior member of our Council, his camp Director and PD sat his EBOR)... ... gave him a chance to look others in the eye and say "I showed up." True story: Our HS marching band (~160 pieces) splits into 2 bands for the rest of the year. Placement is by audition to ability groups. Son ended up in the 2d band. 10 days later son went to regional auditions. Placed for an honor band. Had ONE of the young people who auditioned above him at the HS come to audition at all, and had brought their A game with them, son would not be in the honor band. LESSON: Strike out for the good things. You may not get even if you try, but if you do not try, you will not get. Anyway, if you are locked into your path, Godspeed and safe travel. The road is never as smooth as we want it to be.

A horse is a horse, of course, of course, And no one can talk to a horse of course That is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Scouter Llama. Go right to the source and ask the horse He'll give you the answer that you'll endorse. He's always on a steady course. Talk to the Scouter Llama. People yakkity yak a streak and waste your time of day But Scouter Llama's will never speak unless they has something to say. A horse is a horse, of course, of course, And this one'll talk 'til his voice is hoarse. You never heard of a talking horse? Well listen to this. We are Scouter Llamas. - With apologies to Livingston and Evans...

scoutldr, In the 97 years since Mr Boyce came back from his meeting with BP, I suspect the very situation we are discussing (less the cause of the conviction) has happened at least once. Reality is, some Troop in some District in some Council probably either has dealt with this very issue in the past year. That's one of the reason I asked for parameters. If the boy joined Scouting, or became active, after the event, and has turned his life around, then why not let him be a marked man? If, OTOH, something happened and he went sour weeks before his EBOR, then, well, there are consequences... and they are not pretty. I suspect the newly convicted young man needs adult assocation and ideals even more to help him re-discover his anchor points and bearings in life. Whether or not he makes Eagle, to me, is rather secondary to that!

What Oak Tree just said. Look. The job is not done until the paperwork is complete. If the Scoutmaster failed to have a SM conference about how well the SPL was doing his job, ... shame on us SCOUTERS. If the Scoutmaster failed to notify the Advancement Coordinator that the SPL had been removed for cause, ... shame on us SCOUTERS. If the Chaplain failed to notify his Chaplain's Aide as well as the Scoutmaster about absences and substandard performance in carrying out the POR, ... shame on us SCOUTERS. Why do I say shame on us? In this case, we adults have not managed the advancement process. Should these Scouts be turned back at the final Scoutmaster Conference or the EBOR, YOU AND YOUR FELLOW SCOUTERS HAVE GIVEN THEM AMMUNITION FOR THEIR APPEALS. THE METHODS OF SCOUTING WORK INTERDEPENDENTLY. Advancement in our youth program requires leveraging the Adult Association Method ... that means MENTORSHIP from the SM, and in this case, from the Chaplain. Where were they? There is some hope for recovery. Let's use the Adult Association Method together with the Ideals Method. These two young men need to be asked in a Scoutmaster Conference, or perhaps in a Board of Review, on their honor, if they think they have truly met the mandates of their PORs. If they say no, you have a chance to re-set and go forward again. As far as letting them initiate a project, there's nothing in the BSA literature that says an Eagle Leadership Advancement project need have only registered Scouts as the labor pool. My son is a youth member in the Barbershop Harmony Society. His project was hospital visitation, with song, of Veterans at 2 VA hospitals and a regional pediatric teaching hospital in support of their recreation therapy programs. His labor pool was ... the adults of his local barbershop chorus. If they can come up with a viable project, they get to keep going forward. What would I do? Get my Scoutmaster to be doing his job of mentorship and management. He's the program officer. His is the honor, but his also is the accountability. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Listen to the voice in your heart. It will tell you where the greatest need is. To me, a big question in getting ready to listen to the voice in yor heart is: Which is the bigger need in your own District and Council: - Leaders in all 3 programs who have solid networks they can rely on? - Venturing youth and leaders who need to know how to find and leverage program resources? They can both be important questions. I wish you well in sorting them out! Let us know how you do decide