John-in-KC

I agree with what Lisa and Mark said. To me, the issue is whose signatures were forged. If the MBC, then the entire MB is invalid. If the SM sig is the forgery, and the Scout completed the MB to standard, then the issues to address are trustworthiness and obedience. (In this case, obedience to the system). Absolutely agree with Lisa about SM keeping his committee in the loop. Surprises on BORs are BAD THINGS.

Considering the dead link sources from the Chief Seattle Council website, I suspect you will have to take the time/energy to call directly. Forgotten/dead websites are a favorite pet peeve of mine.

Gonzo said, in part: "Adults have to teach some skills, right? If thte boys don't have the skills (any skills), who will teach the skills?" If the unit is new, the adult may have to teach the skill THE FIRST TIME to a boy, and help him attain mastery. Then he can teach others. Even then, I submit there are alternatives: What about the new Troop asking for assistance from youth of a neighboring Troop?" It's one of those things 21CWB teaches: Think outside the box!

Beavah, I think the issue is enforcement of the Charter. On one hand, BSA sets a licensing contract with a community organization: The Chartered Partner. The CP granted the charter is expected to organize and operate units per the Scouting model. BSA provides training, facility, and support services to the CP. There is a certain amount of flexibility in the license. PLCs and Venturing crew leadership teams routinely make program implementation decisions for their units. At the same time, there are areas which have almost no flex whatsoever: Advancement procedures are one of these. Save the special needs Scout, a boy has to have a certain matrix of 21 merit badges to qualify for Eagle. Scouting is largely self-policing. We go round and round on uniform, and National wants us to wear a correct uniform, but as Beavah points out, I don't see professional dollars against the task. Concurrently, there are areas where the Professional Service must be pedantic police. YP is one of them; if there's an incident, the SE has, in many States, a "Must Report" obligation to the local child welfare and gendarmerie authorities. To me, overall, it's a crazy quilt. If you try to parse it for logic, you're going to go nuts!

Eamonn, Thanks. Sounds to me like this DE's efforts would be better served finding a couple of volunteer adults to advise a Venturing Officers Association, and getting it up and running. Now I'll come back to what FScouter said, which is "hammer the guy because he isn't recruiting the volunteers he needs to." The DE needs to recruit two layers of volunteers: Adults to advise a VOA, and you to be a VOA!

I am going to hammer on the DE here, because it looks like he doesn't know how to leverage the Venturing Program and the capabilities of the youth. He's looking at "yet another camporee" imo. EAmonn wrote: "but changed it to a Council event because we don't have the numbers." I can see that, my District doesn't have enough Crews to make a go of things collectively, and we're a 300 series (meaning BIG) Council, and we're in a BIG (65 Packs, 55 Troops) District. We have a VOA for a reason. These are older youth, who we're supposed to be empowering to make decisions. We allow them to drive on their own to functions (a Scout can't drive another Scout per G2SS), we allow them handguns in program activities, we allow them co-education. As we say so often here, we don't necessarily know everything from our posts. Even Eamonn, a stalwart here, may not have given us all the info. So, Eamonn: Does the DE have a solid working knowledge of the Venturing program and how to leverage the youth of the program, Council Wide???

When Beavah wrote the below, "Yah, and I appreciate the sentiment that many have that the BSA should reflect the military more, especially those who have served. Even agree with it some. Few doubt that the armed forces as a whole have operated more honorably than the civilian leadership the past decade." I was intrigued. I'm an older soldier now. Veteran and retiree. I've been a Scout, and now I'm a Scouter. I look at the Civil Air Patrol Youth Squadron, which my Chartered Partner also sponsors. I look at formations, mandatory study periods, and sometimes "not a lot of fun going on." I look at Scouts and Venturers. I see young men, and women, learning discipline, call to task, and growth to maturity in different ways. I don't know about the other Veterans, serving Soliders, Sailors, Marines, Airmen, and Coast Guardsmen, or retirees here, but if I wanted my child in a high discipline centralized authority group, I would have enrolled him in CAP or JROTC. Further, I ask this not only at the program implementation level, in the units, but also at the program support level... district and Council? How many of us want the management that (Battalion/Regiment/Squadron/Wing) put upon US??? What say you, my once and former comrades-in-arms?

No belt. Won't know about the length until I see it on him just before Christmas (it's his Christmas present).

In addition to the Camp Director, there should also be a ranger: Member of the professional staff who is the facilties guy for your camp. He should be one of the go-tos for many of these questions. Another resource, if you Council uses them, are the Campmasters. These are experienced volunteer Scouters who supervise operations of the camp during the off-season, so the Ranger can have a weekend off! Your council camping department will know how to contact them. Sewer lines do not often freeze up. If the camp kitchen drains are in service and available, dump the grey water into them. With wood stoves/fireplaces, I would want two-deep adult leadership in each cabin ... and adults sharing the duty to be up throughout the night. Unless ventilation is adequate, carbon monoxide poisoning is a risk. The carbon monoxide above is also the reason you want to cook outdoors. In our homes, we have range hoods to vent natural gas fumes to the outside; in a camp cabin, you have to plan that level of ventilation. BTW, one activity the kids can do indoors in the evening, depending on when you have your PW derby: Work on derby cars!

Eamonn, Gee, here's a novel concept. Ask the Council VOA to figure out what they would like to sponsor for a Venturing weekend for the youth. If it comes back rappeling and single-shot rifles, OK. Of course, if it comes back with other activities, then the DE needs to look at how the Council can support it, just as any other Consultant would. ... Or is the DE just simply looking to get the Council dollars by opening the Scout Camp and charging use fees? I can be awfully cynical some days...

I think FScouter has identified the root problem: "...the purpose of the course is not to teach adults how to camp. I think we are in a generation where we are detached from the outdoors, and we have too many of us adult leaders who do not know how to camp and function in the outdoors in all weathers! It's tough to train a skill if you haven't mastered it yourself.

Lisa, Open ended questions are always appropriate. I share the frustration about your SMs comment about Eagle projects. He should be proud another Scout has gotten fairly far on the trail. Keep plugging

Folks, First of all, I have no relationship with this firm, other than as a very satisfied customer. My son has had a red wool BSA jacket for a couple of years now. I found an old, yet New in the Bag, jacket out online for far less than what Supply Corporation charges. He outgrew it. He's 6' 3" now, size large fits him well in the chest (and will for some years to come, but Large doesn't help him in the sleeves. He's a Large/Long!! BSA Supply Corporation does not consider tall people in their sizing plan. They go S-XXXXL and have a good day. Additionally, the official wool jacket is now "wool blend" by the Scoutstuff website. From another forum here, I found Bemidji Woolen Mills, in Bemidji, MN. They supply red wool BSA jackets to Northern Tier's trading post. I bought one of these for my son. Large/Long. Note the LONG . Further, their jackets are still 100% virgin wool! It came yesterday. When I broke it out of the box (to have his OA/Mic-o-Say patches applied and his Philmont Bull to go over the shoulder), I was instantly impressed with the quality of the garment. The cloth is heavier, it has a tighter weave, and it has a feature BSA coats don't have: Slash pockets in the sides. Based on the prices at scoutstuff, WHEN I ORDERED IT, the Bemidji coat was also less expensive: $145 SHIPPED v Scoutstuff's $152- $157 + tax. (Truth in data: Scoutstuff as of today (12/8/06) has priced wool jackets at $99-$104). If you are in a truly cold climate regime, you may want to have a serious look at this coat: http://www.bemidjiwoolenmills.com/details.php?id=voyscout To Bill Batchelder of Bemidji Woolen Mills: THANK YOU! YIS(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

"Should BSA, with their decline in membership, investigate what they could do to be MORE RELEVANT?" Ok, I'll answer you: NO. The BSA program has elements which address the issues GSUSA raises. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Thanks to Ed for finding the correct url!!! Let's parse that article a bit: "These include overscheduling; bullying, especially over the Internet and via cellphone text-messaging; "cutting" (self-mutilation), and teen pregnancy. Meanwhile, more than 40 percent of girls aren't raising their hands in class because they're afraid of being labeled smart - and being bullied for that." Family Life Merit Badge...EAGLE REQUIRED, see Requirement 6b Personal Fitness Merit Badge...EAGLE REQUIRED, see Requirements 1, 2 e-f, 3 h-k, Personal Management Merit Badge...EAGLE REQUIRED, see Requirement 8 SCOUT RANK, Requirement 9, pamphlet exercises REQUIRED Could and should we address some of the more recent challenges? Probably. Even so, THE FRAMEWORK EXISTS. COMPUTERS MB, Requirement 1 SCHOLARSHIP MB, entire package "The trick for scout leaders is to achieve an organizational nimbleness that can adjust to a new challenge such as cyberbullying, while recognizing that many harmful fads have their roots in basic age-old problems, such as peer pressure and low self-esteem. Activities that build confidence and teach life skills and leadership - the core of girl scouting - will never lack relevance. (snip) "But by greatly consolidating its organizational structure, the scouts should be able to free up resources and time so it can move more quickly and uniformly. And by building up its research institute into the nation's top information source on girls generally, it can better track girls' needs, and better measure and adjust scout programs. "Volunteer adults will undergo training that includes how to spot signs of bullying and how to address issues such as cutting without "outing" anyone in a group setting. The entire curriculum is being rewritten to make greater room for topics such as the ethical use of technology - online chat etiquette, for example, or cellphone photo use." Gee, doesn't this sound like ADULT YOUTH PROTECTION???, not to mention elements existing in our current program? Doesn't this also sound like Council Consolidation, which we went through on the order of 30 years ago? Let's look at some Venturing requirements for a moment, just to see where they are with the older teen and transitioning young adult: http://usscouts.org/advance/venturing/GoldAward.html Look at personal growth, requirement 4 for a moment: "The candidate must, in consultation with the crew Advisor or a member of the crew committee, set one personal growth goal related to each of the following areas: citizenship, leadership, service to others, community/family, outdoor experience, and total fitness." Brian, I've only been on the adult side of Scouting for a few years, but I've learned there are a huge number of tools in the toolbox, waiting to be used by the enterprising, caring, committed leader. May I suggest you spend some time looking at what's in the toolbox rather than jumping to a conclusion?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

PowderHorn is yet another example of "mile wide and inch deep" training. It's designed to give the leader, from what I see, ideas and concepts ... not make him a subject matter expert. When I was younger, Mother Army taught me to rappel. I learned a skill, well enough to be "tower control" or the belay man. That didn't happen in half a day. Expertise comes from practice.

I'll join in with the agreement to venividi and Beavah. BOR is one of the elements of the Adult Association Method. If the young man "will not" communicate clearly, sometimes concisely, sometimes in detail, then maybe there need to be some consequences. I use "will not" v "can not" with malice aforethought. If the young man has genuine learning challenges, then there are other issues involved. That said, the way Lisa wrote her post implied we're talking about the typical 13-14 year old. At the same time, check in with your District Advancement folks, UC, and COR. When Mom and Dad cry foul to the DE, the volunteers are going to be the stuckees to find out why. Keep your unit support chain in the loop!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Yes, Scouts have been part of parades since Day 3. I'll agree with that. I'll also say Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Venturers can ... walk or ride bicycles in those very same parades. Look at the young men who carry the banners in the January 1 Tournament of Roses. A few years ago, they were area Eagle Scouts... walking. Thanks to oldsm for finding the parade guidance.

First, The link is dead. Whatever was at that page, GSUSA has pulled it! The rest of this derives from your own quote: "...investigate what they could do to be MORE RELEVANT?" Second... Please state, clearly, why you assess the Aims of Scouting to be ir-relevant: Development of Moral strength and character Development of Good citizenship Development in physical, mental, and emotional fitness Third, please state, clearly, why you assess the Methods of Boy Scouting to be ir-relevant: Ideals. Patrols. Outdoor Programs. Advancement. Associations With Adults. Personal Growth. Leadership Development. Uniform. Fourth, please state, clearly, why you assess the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, the Scout Slogan, and the Scout Motto to be ir-relevant. I won't quote them here, I trust they are all written on your heart! Fifth, please state, clearly, why you assess the advancement plan of Boy Scouting to be ir-relevant. You can find that in BSA Requirements or a Boy Scout Handbook. - Here I WILL help you. IMO, Scouting has taken the skill and art of cooking to almost a "so-what/who cares." As a divorced father, I've found I've had to once again use skills I first learned over a campfire to affordably feed myself and my son. If we accept the premise that the advancement plan to Eagle contains a broad array of essential life skills, we've missed one at the "gut-check" level: Cooking. Its inclusion in the trail to First Class is pro forma compared to years past, as is its inclusion in the Camping Merit Badge. BTW, if you want to be an agent of change, what are you doing to get yourself involved in District, Council, Regional or National leadership? I have given my feedback, more than once, to the professional and senior volunteer staff I have access to. Food for thought. YIS(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Paging OGE, paging OGE: I have to agree with Local1400. I don't see anything here of redeeming value. Of course, then again, I read the op-ed pages of the Wall Street Journal, with occasional forays to the blogosphere.

This might be an area the National Committee on the Order of the Arrrow ought to pick up its socks and start pulling together some training. It has an active organization to leverage beyond just the local Council, but smaller areas than the Region. I can see training like this being offered in clusters in many cases. Perhaps the National Camping Committee needs to ask for volunteer Scouters of all skill levels to do some "field testing" ... and let's establish some baselines for where Americn adults are in the Y2K era for camping and fieldcraft skills.

Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church have been known entities in my neck of the woods for 20 years now (Kansas City is less than an hour from Topeka). He's forgotten anything he might have ever learned about the difference between Law and Gospel. BTW, his daughter, who is part of his organization, iirc is currently a member of the Kansas Bar. The Constitutional issues of the speech clause and the Free Exercise clause in the First Amendment will someday have a resounding clash thanks to him...

His mother and I held my son back academically at K. We wanted the improved socialization an extra year would give. We placed him in the same Den with his peers when he was 8. He stayed with Cubbing and went up to the Troop in due course with his peer group. He was 11 years, 9 months when he went to the Troop At 17, he's an Eagle now, going on his first palm. Friendships among boys matter a lot. I think the Webelo app is probably as close to a hard upper age limit on the Cubbing program as anything I've ever seen. As far as cranking through the Webelo program in a program year, a lot of us did it back in the 60s. We did Lion, got our Arrows of Light, turned 11, and went to the Troop. You may have to get parental buy-in to keep the den active through the summer, but Webelos Badge + AOL is doable in a calendar year IMO.

One Eagle Dad to another, CONGRATULATIONS to your son. Yes, it was a harder trail for him, but that can be leveraged for the good! May I offer the suggestion that later in your Scoutering career, you might want to consider service in the District and/or Council Advancement Committee???

Teamwork ... While the Patrol is the team we mainly use for the youth, how many teams and teams of teams does it take to deliver Scouting to the units? Continuing, lifelong training: Reinforced yet again. There is always a different way, an easier technique, a new skill, a new requirement. Being static doesn't help the youth. The very concept of servant leadership: Scouting doesn't happen unless adults are willing to lend their skills, time and energy to the things which need doing.