John-in-KC

One other thing I've learned from FOS campaigns: An Eagle Scout (or Life who is in striking distance) is a heckuva training aid. They stand tall, look proud, and can organize younger Scouts (particularly Cubs) to do things. When parents of Cubs see the end product, they are more than likely to break out the checkbook.

Prices 5 years ago may not be prices now... I'd suggest googling for a vendor.

Ask your DE to get ahold of the National Council. There are support resources out there! Additionally, you don't tell us where you are, so we can't look for academic language programs in your area. Dig throught the local universities, seeking ones which have Mandarin Chinese as a program. I will bet you there's a former Boy Scout enrolled in one of those programs, who'd be glad to help.

Pretty much what Lisa said. My now Eagle was a Bear in 1998/1999. Even then, he got to draw Electives from the "other 12" Achievements. Our Council also gives out a special "Bear Claw" award, where a Commissioner comes and makes special over a Scout who completes all 24 Achievements. We also use the Webelos Twentier patch, for a Web who does all twenty of his units.

Yvonne, As so many have said, WELCOME: 1) Like Lisa said, separate your RT from the Boy Scout and Venturing RT. Common night and site, but different areas in the site. 2) KISMIF. Our current Cub RT commish has been doing a "model Pack meeting" for some time. 3) Breakouts: If you can get to the staffing point, Tigers, Wolves/Bears, Webelos, Pack staff (CM, ACM, CC, etc). DLs focus on program delivery, Pack forum focuses on the "stuff" of Cubbing. 4) Scott was spot on with "communicate communicate communicate." Does your DE have access to some form of "Every Member Contact" email? If so, use that to target a list to Cub leaders, and then HIT EVERY ONE OF THEM IN THE DISTRICT. If you get a bounced email, ask the CC of the Pack concerned to help run it to ground. 5) Don't be afraid to ask for resources from other programs. Is there a Commissioner who knows Den Chiefing forwards and back? Ask him to come. 6) Do you have the Annual RT Program Guide for this year and next yet? If not, several Councils have them posted online for easy download. 7) Are you trained as a RT Commish? If not, look into area Commissioner Colleges or PTC's RT commissioner weeks! As you can see, there are lots of "low hanging fruit good ideas" to borrow on. 8) Lastly, work with your Scout and Venturer Commissioners, as well as the District Commish. Effectively, you are now an ADC, responsible for one major component of the Charter Agreement: Providing ongoing training and support to units Have fun!

Beavah said, in part: "This incident happened at a BSA summer camp. On BSA property. With BSA staff in charge. We should acknowledge and fix our own problems, not try to pass the buck to the CO's. Or hide behind 15-year-olds in court, eh? Maybe da CO's should amend the charter agreement to put an emphasis on BSA responsibility and service." I agree with you, Beavah, in that the local Council, the SE, the Reservation Director, Program Director, Lodge Director, and Ranger all own a share of the responsibility. Funny. In my Council a youth staffer can only be an Instructor until the 18th birthday. Only then is he/she considered for a pay raise and promotion to Counselor. I think your other points are valid, particularly on the quality of our outdoor skills training and certification for adults. I think we do need to improve the G2SS so it's not just an compendium of insurance liability findings, and that safety needs to be taught up front and as a key component of the adult curriculum, not as an afterthought. I do think we need to emphasize the importance of the work the Chartered Partner does in its part of the Charter Agreement. I say that, though, looking across the board here, listening to how many uninvolved and pro forma Chartered Partners we seem to have. Leader Selection is their vital task. Maybe we are just hearing about the problem Partners, but where there's noise...(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

My sons' Eagle photo album included his time in the HS band, his trip to music camp, and his trips to space camp. His display included his CS uniform with brag vest as well as his trek map from Philmont. It's his life; he should be proud of the great things done thus far!

Have you considered: Setting a standard for cloth ? Buying cloth on the bolt? Cutting blanks? Asking parents who sew to hem the blanks? I ask this seriously; you eliminate costs of shipping and handling, as well as costs of labor in making the neckers. The Troop of my youth did this. It's almost 40 years later, and my necker is still serviceable!

I will say this, If there was ever a situation which called for every unit contact by the Commissioner Service to have a chain teaching of wilderness conservation, fire safety, and LNT, this case is the justification. Beavah, You're right, the Council/National liability coverage protects Chartered Partners from the impacts of the program. That said, we may have hit a point in the BSA life cycle where BSA owes its Chartered Partners better training about stewardship of the land. This includes Scouts and Scouters on the charter, as well as the COR. My thought is the National Council should amend the Charter Agreement, or the annual roster renewal, to include emphasis on stewardship of the land. If our program delivery vehicle is outdoor skills, then we (Scouts and Scouters Nationwide) need to be among the very best stewards of our recreation lands.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

E, I'll add that in our Council, many Eagle Projects involve construction of some form or other. District Advancement Committee wants details and diagrams when the project involves construction. Our last two L-->E coordinators have been an architect and a practicing PE. They help the Scout with: - Plans - Bills of materials More importantly, they coach the kid, including rehearsing him, and check his project Workbook. When they are in the loop, and the Scout listens, the project usually sails through presentation and approval. When the coordinators are not involved, or the boy blows off their advice, projects seem to be deferred from approval a fair bit.

packsaddle, The Following is from the outside back cover of the Eagle Leadership Service Project Workbook, BSA 18-927. The Adobe acrobat version I'm using for this comes from the NESA website: http://www.nesa.org/trail/manual.html 5. When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the person listed as a reference on the Eagle Scout Rank Application either by letter, form, or telephone checklist. The council determines the method or methods to be used. The candidate should have contacted those individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between persons listed as references and the council service center. (Bold type is emphasis added) Letter, no. Reference check required? Yes. Do we agree? (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I wear mine on my WB name tag, as I've seen countless other Scouters do.

Beavah, Points: 1) From my read, National policy is that the references BE CONTACTED. We've had some give and take here on whether or not references (beyond names on the app) were required. My take based on this is yes. 2) My council has the boy give the reference form to his references, then mail them back to a named unit leader. Was wondering how many other councils did same?

I wonder how many Councils honor the below only in its breaching? Following is from the outside back cover of the Eagle Leadership Service Project Workbook, BSA 18-927. The Adobe acrobat version I'm using for this comes from the NESA website: http://www.nesa.org/trail/manual.html 5. When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the person listed as a reference on the Eagle Scout Rank Application either by letter, form, or telephone checklist. The council determines the method or methods to be used. The candidate should have contacted those individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between persons listed as references and the council service center. italicized emphasis added 6. The Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, properly filled out, must be submitted with the application. 7. After the contents of an application have been verified and appropriately signed, the application, Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, and references will be returned from the council service center to the chairman of the Eagle board of review so that a board of review may be scheduled. Under no circumstances should a board of review be scheduled until the application is returned to the chairman of the Eagle board of review. Reference checks that are forwarded with the application are confidential, and their contents are not to be disclosed to any person who is not a member of the board of review. Certainly my Council honors this only in the breach: "You should thoughtfully select the individuals to provide letters of recommendation concerning your quest for the Eagle rank. The enclosed appraisal forms should be given to the appropriate people with envelopes provided for mailing back to your unit leader, advancement chairperson or Eagle Scout coordinator. These appraisal letters are confidential, and should only be opened and reviewed by the Eagle Scout board of review." That said, the Workbook does answer one of our standing questions on this Forum: Each Council has the discretion to determine how references WILL be contacted. From my read, though, National wants the references contacted. To paraphrase Barry: Isn't this Scouting stuff FUN?

This is a hypothetical, it has not happened to me or the youth I support... so far. During the Eagle Leadership Service Project process, the Scout and his sponsoring agency (church, school, community) came to clear understanding on what was expected in terms of quantity, time, or physical product. The Eagle candidate gets his project through approvals, and goes into making it happen. For either quality or quantity, the results of the project do not pass muster with the sponsoring agency. The representative refuses to sign off on page 15 of the Eagle Leadership Service Project Workbook (or funish a letter/email of approval). Does the Scout have recourse, as in the appeal procedures for an Eagle BOR? Who is they keyperson in the process? Has anyone been there before real world? How did your Scout, leaders, and district handle the challenge?

A couple of comments are in order. First, let's remember that National Council policy, as demonstrated in the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook (BSA 18-927), that a "Council or District Advancement Committee Representative" approve the ELSP proposal. Second, Mr Eagle1984 stated earlier he sat on a District Advancement Committee. He's the one who should be helping make the policy decision. I hope our feedback has been useful to him. Third, assuming a project is approved (and apparently over time some Councils and Districts have), the blood bank has a vote in what they will sign off on. If they say 40 units, and the Candidate doesn't round up at least 40 volunteers, he's not met the supported organizations standards. They do not have to accept the work done. FWIW, as an Advancement coordinator in a unit, as a committee chair, and as a COR, if I've had questions on whether a project will even pass muster with the District Advancement Committee, I've talked to its chairman offline. Several times I've gotten good pointers which if the candidate bought in, turned "service hours" into an Eagle Project.

This ties in waaaayyy too well with the thread at Camping and High Adventure entitled "Backpacker Mag biased against BSA?" http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=149199 We're supposed to be training these young people to be stewards of the outdoors. 15 year old young people have at least some degree of judgment and maturity. If this was Patrol camping, did the SM have a heart-heart talk with the PL before the youth set out? Further, this happened in Utah. It doesn't take a Vigil Honor Eagle to figure out that during fire season, log wood is dry enough to be tinder. Who trained these young people in fire management and safety? BFO: From the depositions, he/she failed. I hate to say it, but the local Council in Utah and the National Council are probably going to take a hit on this one... and rightly so. Someone needs to hammer Trustworthy and Obedient into this particular Troop, CO, and Council. Oh by the way: 17 Scouts? NWIH that is patrol camping, imo. That's two full patrols at least, and THAT means troop camping, and that means leader involvement. BTW, another BFO: If I were the Council attorneys, I wouldn't want any Scouters on the jury... especially any trained Scouters. It's just hard to see this Council coming out a winner. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Sue, As I said in the other thread, if, downstream, I decide it's the right thing for me to re-take, I will, and I'll set my beads aside while I'm in the classroom. That said, our ticket is really only our first ticket. That was fully set in my mind for a lifetime. After I'm back in the field, the necker and the beads would go back on. I'm working my ticket ... I'm being a servant leader to the greater good, the units I serve, and myself. Sometimes the National Council gets it wrong.

I'm somewhat aboard with both Lisa and Beavah. Older Scouts (in a perfect world, Eagles) who show the maturity should be allowed to learn a bit about "the other side" of the interview. It's going to help them as they apply for colleges and jobs. That said, the BOR is the pinnacle of the Adult Association Method. I want adults there, because we want to be role models as these young men grow and mature, day by day. I like what Beavah said about using the skills, particularly at T-2-1, as the icebreaker to a conversation. It's not fun when the BOR has to coax each answer out of the Scout. It's more fun when you push the right button and the youth starts running like an old wind-up car... ZOOM! From my experience, T-2-1 seem to run about 20 minutes with the Scout, Star and Life a bit over 30 minutes, and the EBOR ... well, I've seen some just keep going and going ... because everyone was having a good conversation. A memorable EBOR was where the Guest asked "Do we even need to take a vote?", we all said no, kept the conversation going another half hour even as we signed the papers in front of the new Eagle.

On the subject of beads and the Gilwell taupe necker... It's real simple. If you retake the course, leave them at home. Bottom line is this: You bought and paid for the necker, the slide, and the beads as part of the course fees. Not even a CD can break into your home and steal what is yours. More importantly is making sure, by way of your DE, that Council does not purge your WB training record from your files on ScoutNet. To answer the question: Downstream, if there's a fundamental change in the curriculum, or if I want to expand my network in different direction, yes, I'd take WB again.

Now we're on a different tack. BSA Publication 18-927 is the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook On page 6 are the signatures of the sponsoring agency, for whom the service gets performed. To me, this is an agreement between the Scout and the sponsoring agency. If you look at the next to the last page, the sponsoring agency gets to sign off on "The project was planned, developed and carried out" (emphasis added) "by the candidate." In other words, the sponsoring agency gets a vote. "Do not add to or take from"... imo DOES NOT APPLY. The sponsoring agency for the ELSP can set their own standards. It's part of the the contract, and may well be a life lesson, if they refuse to accept the work done as meeting the standards. Going to your hypothetical (or perhaps actual): If they said 40 pints, and the candidate got 30, he has not achieved their standards.

Have you thought of purchasing a Uniform Guide and looking at the rules for each knot? Here's a url to help you do your research: http://www.usscouts.org/awards/knots2.html(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

OGE, I'm a Veteran! Thanks to my service to my Nation, and thanks to the *&^%$#@#$%^&*((*&^%$#@ FDA and blood donation protocols, I am now PERMANENTLY DEFERRED from donating blood. Why? I was stationed in Europe during the waning days of the Cold War, and I am a risk for Mad Cow disease. As Colonel Sherman T Potter, Cavalry, Medical Corps, more than once said: BULLHOCKEY. Anyway. The blood supply, since June 1 2002 (the date hundreds of thousands of Veterans were FDA protocol permanently deferred from the donor pool), has fallen to historic lows. My local non-profit blood center tells me there are days in Flyover Country where there is not one day of supply of blood and products in the pipeline. If a Scout is volunteering to simply be the keyperson at a place where folks already give blood, you're right, that's service hours, not an ELSP. If however, as I stated, the Scout develops and builds a relationship between a pool of donors and a blood center, and that relationship is designed to last over time, then, to me, it needs to be evaluated for an ELSP on its merits. YIS :-)

Eagle 1984, Speaking only for myself ... IF a Scout had his local church, school or chartered partner (through the rest of this: "target place") Never Ever do blood drives... IF the Scout sold his target place on starting regular blood drives.... IF the Scout was willing to recruit not only the donors, but also the volunteer support for the first 2-3 blood drives... IF the Scout was actively involved with the blood bank in their arrival, site setup, operations, and tear-down... AND IF the Scout had plans to cement a long-term relationship between his target place and the sponsoring blood bank... THEN I'd buy into a blood drive. Short of that, I'd be pressed, either at unit, sponsoring agency, or District level...

There is the not very small matter of evolving outdoor ethics. I keep putting the 1965 edition of the Boy Scout Handbook up here as a guidepost for all to see. Well, it has faults as well: BROWSE BEDS TRENCH FIRES are just two in terms of outdoor skills. We can and must do better than this. That means TRAINING for adult leaders as well. Additionally, we attract a lot of hunters and fishermen to our leader ranks. The vast majority do care, both frontcountry and back, about how they treat the land. The ones who do not, well, that's where we got "sod surfing" from. In my lifetime, we've all but doubled the population of the US (~168 million to > 300 million) but we've not gained a square inch of land for agriculture, living space, work space, or recreation. WE MUST TAKE CARE OF WHAT WE HAVE.