John-in-KC

I (sadly) agree with others. This *gentleman* is a risk. At the bare minimum, he's a risk to the good order and management of the unit, both the program side (Scouts, SM and ASMs) and the support side (Committee). At this point, the COR, CC and IH need to sit down with the Council. Since the father is not a Scouter, there are different challenges. Whoever is the General Counsel for the Council may need to assist your Chartered Partner in writing a "you are no longer welcome on this property" letter. BTW, unless he's a widower, he's not a single Dad. He may be a divorced dad with an unwilling former bride, but he's not a single Dad. I know, I am Dad to my Eagle, though we've been apart several years now. The sad part is we will probably lose the Scout forever, and the situation sounds like he needs Scouting ... badly

Every Scouter I know who has earned the award wears it loop up. Have you looked at an insignia guide that's a bit older?

Michelle, High-quality boots and smartwool socks! He needs to wear them NOW, and get his legs used to the weight. He also needs to start walking, lots, over the next year to condition his legs. The more used his legs are to walking (and walking hills if you have them), the less they'll hurt the first day or two on the trail.

I did my first 50 miler when I was 12. Qualifications in my Troop: - First Class Scout - Make all the training hikes Holding back young people who have the physical capability is just plain silly, and risks losing the Scout from the program! BAD IDEA IMO. The gateway ages at Philmont, from my observation, are designed to keep a limited kinda sorta backcountry area manageable in human population. They don't seem to be about strength and ability. In other words, I'm in violent agreement with LongHaul.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Pete, Thank you for the feedback (it's a gift ). Allow me to get the story straight. Bottom Line: 18-20 certainly, 18-25 perhaps in general. Scouters desiring to enroll in WB in these ages should require close scrutiny from the course director and the SPL. CD/SPL should look for depth of maturity which will enable and support successful classroom as well as field work. As I've said elsewhere, the leadership psych in WB is fairly common stuff. For some of us, it becomes well-plowed ground. I've had this stuff, in varying doses, since ROTC in college, 30 years ago. Even so, for some, the exposure to this stuff is first time. An essential characteristic of a good leader is being a good follower. Young people often have not had that "gut-check" moment of being a good follower. In many cases, 18-20 hasn't yet matured to the point where taking WB is win/win enviroment. In some cases, they have, and we need to support them. Make sense? John

GWD, With your feedback and followup, I'm completely agreeing with Lisa.

Invite? Seems to me these days the invitation is "It'd be really cool if you came to our WoodBadge course." At our RT, I've given over space in the District Committee activity mall to the upcoming WB course of a NEIGHBORING Council. I'm going to take a different tack than setting a floor age. There are 18-20 year old men (and women) who've had their life changing adult maturity moment. I think final acceptance should be a CD/SPL (in our area, the SPL is the heir apparent as CD) call.

Packsaddle, The Adult Volunteer Leader App requires the SSN. It's part of the background check procedures. Folks who do not want to disclose their SSN may take their app to their Council Service Center and give it directly to the Registrar's office for processing. It's suppressed on ScoutNet internet recharter. As for the driver, I think I would thank him for having volunteered, invite him to ride with someone and never ever call on him for driving support ... period. Driving isn't the only parental support task in a unit.

E, Had a 20 year old as my patrol mate. He is the only member of our patrol who my TG does not expect to get beaded. To be blunt, many 18 year olds have not had that "ah-HA" moment that someone in 30s-50s has had. They aren't ready to get it done, come what may. Now, that said, there are a few 19 year olds who may well be ready for WB. Most of them are young Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines who've already been to the sandbox and who have had their ah-HA moment.

I say again (who else recognizes that radio procedure? )... We are, every one of us on this Forum, too far away from the situation and lacking too many details to make a specific call on Miss Jenn's question. There is one and only one place for her and her fiance` to ask this question: That is in the office of the local Council Scout Executive. As they are affianced, we can give some general guidance. If they marry in the near future, I do not think the guidance we've given covers that situation. I would not want to be the SE or Council President who wakes up to a headline of: "Local Scout unit refuses married couple permission to join" One of the SE's functions is Youth Protection. He's an obligated reporting official under many state child protection laws. Let's let him earn his paycheck. YIS.

Eamonn, Scoutldr makes a point. There's a lot of training and education which BSA should offer it's Chartered Partners. I've taken the COR training. Two words: Pro Forma. It's not even a shadow of what it needs to be. In a caring Chartered Partner, the COR needs orientations to: -Each of the Scouting programs, and their inter-relationships. -Inter-relationship of the Aims and Methods across the programs. -Leader and youth training systems, including how they equip the leader for service, and how the youth system equips the leader for life. -Outdoor training support for leaders: How the outdoor training available to leaders inter-relates to the programs, and how it equips a leader to train youth or supervise youth training youth. -Outdoor safety and lands management: We're supposed to be the premiere outdoor based citizenship program, let's teach it from the top of Chartered Partners to the newest wet behind the ears Tiger/parent partnership! -Operations and management of the local council, and how the Chartered Partners should influence the direction local councils take. -Youth protection management: How the local council and area child protective services integrate. How the YP program supports each of the Scouting programs. What are the policies dealing with youth who are in the eyes of the law and society adults and eligible to marry. IMO, Commissioner Colleges should sponsor a special degree for the COR, taking him or her up through the Master's level, equipping them to serve their own organization as well as Scouting. Unless and until National Council's explicitly provide this level of support to a Chartered Partner, there's an awful lot of wiggle room in the paragraphs of the Charter Agreement: "The chartered organization agrees to "Conduct the Scouting program according to its own policies and guidelines as well as those of the Boy Scouts of America. "Include Scouting as part of its overall program for youth and families." My thoughts.

Acco, As a point of reference, in my Council, Day Camp J-staff or CIT (1 session): Age 14 Instructor (paid), beginning at 15 Counselor (paid, Scouter position), beginning at 18 Assistant Director (paid, Scouter position), beginning at 20 Area Director (paid, Scouter position), beginning at 21 Program Director is also over 21 Camp Director is also over 21 Area Directors, PDs, and Camp Directors must be National Camp School trained. I think many Assistant Directors are also NCS trained.

Brandon, If folks look closely at the Boy Scout Leader Fast Start video (I've not looked at the BSA online FS for boy scouts), one of the scenes is a troop committee meeting before a campout. The SPL is in attendance, reporting on program readiness under the supervision and coaching of the SM. Brandon, carefully, and with deference to the adults, you might ask the SM to attend an upcoming committee meeting. I hope he'll say yes. Next step will be to ask for a BOR including the Chairman and the SM. Never, ever, ever, blindside a key leader. That's a life lesson for you! Share your concerns with them before you go to the committee. Seek out ways the youth can contribute to solving the problem, especially the dying unit problem. Assuming you are ok'd to go to Committee, DON'T attack the adults. You'll lose your credibility before you're done with your pitch. Instead, identify two challenges you see to effectively running your meeting and the life of the troop. If I read your post correctly, the two biggest challenges are: - Too much noise from the adults. - No Cubs joining. Ask for committee assistance in solving these challenges. Be prepared to offer up assistance to solving the challenges. Lisa offered one (separate areas for adults and youth). Here's one for the Cubs joining: If you do not have young men already out in Packs serving as Den Chiefs, offer to twist Scouts' arms to put Den Chiefs in the field. Boy Socuts reaching back to Cub units are one of the best recruiting tools in your toolbox. Keep us informed. Know we are rooting for you! YIS

LH, Scout has been the first rank of the Boy Scout program since at least 2001 (when my son bridged). Looking at USscouts, it looks like the rank was established in 1999. Here are the things for the rank of Scout that need to be done before the transition: Meet age requirements: Be a boy who has completed the fifth grade and be at least 10 years old, or be 11 years old, or have earned the Arrow of Light Award and be at least 10 years old, and be under 18 years old. Complete a Boy Scout application and health history signed by your parent or guardian. Find a Scout troop near your home. (To find a troop, contact your local Boy Scout Council. The Council name, address and phone number can be found on BSA's Council Locator Page.) Here are the things that can and should be done as the young man approaches the Scoutmaster for the first time. Some are done to get the AOL, but remember that Boy Scouts is not just about the transition from W-B. There are non-Cubs who join: Repeat the Pledge of Allegiance. Demonstrate the Scout sign, salute, and handshake. Demonstrate tying the square knot (a joining knot). Understand and agree to live by the Scout Oath or Promise, Law, motto, and slogan, and the Outdoor Code. Describe the Scout badge. Complete the Pamphlet Exercises. With your parent or guardian, complete the exercises in the pamphlet "How to Protect Your Children from Child Abuse: A Parent's Guide". Participate in a Scoutmaster conference. Turn in your Boy Scout application and health history form signed by your parent or guardian, then participate in a Scoutmaster conference. In truth, there is nothing here that is not rote memorization except 9 and 10. Well, maybe the Oath, Law and code... There is concurrent crediting of requirements for T through 1st Cl, but that's a different matter than getting the young man across the bridge.

I must agree with both Sue and Eagle Pete: "Also, it is vital that you keep foremost in your mind, and in YOUR vision of scouting, the underlying reason for the whole thing, which Sue has so eloquently described... that is, we are here for the boys. All we do... our reason for existing is for the boys. Actually, you may find that your experience as a boy in poorly run programs will actually augment this and you will do more to bring an excellent program to those boys, based on what you missed as a boy. At least, that was my experience." We are here to serve young men. That must be our driving motive.

We can even answer that question. In general, Troops need to find their own web-hosts. You will need to visit your own Council's internet guidelines for specific policies. Here are two known don'ts: Don't publish information which specifically identifies a Scout. Predators do data mine unit websites! Try not to use a service like "yahoo geocities" for your unit website. The National Council would like us to avoid associating our units and BSA with specific advertisers. That said, there are two ways to show off your unit: Post a hyperlink here in a forum. Publish your hyperlink in the Scouter dot com unit rosters. Here is Missouri's: http://www.scouter.com/Net_Roster/Boy_Scouts_of_America/Boy_Scout_Troops/Missouri/ BTW, an important (but as yet unofficial) position of responsibility is unit webmaster. There is no reason this cannot be a youth position. As SM, you can decide essential positions UP TO Life rank. Eagle has a mandatory list. There is even somewhere on the web, someone who makes an unofficial POR patch for webmaster. HTH. YIS

FWIW, LDS is following the Cubbing joining rules as they were 40 or so years ago. I don't know when they changed... Join at 8... Bobcat/Wolf/Bear/Lion/Webelo... Boy Scout at 11. Join at 9... Bobcat/Bear/Lion/Webelo ... Boy Scout at 11. Join at 10...Bobcat/Lion/Webelo... Boy Scout at 11. Program was defined on chronological age, not grade in school. The worst part is the Boy Scout to Venturing transition is 14 AND completed the 8th grade, or 15. My personal opinion is we have moved the program down too far. If I were President of the National Council for one day... Tigers: 7 or 2d Grade. Wolves: 8 or 3d Grade. Bears: 9 or 4th Grade. Webelos 1: 10 or 5th Grade. Transition to Boy Scouts: 11 years old and completion of Fifth Grade. I think the added maturity, and to some extent, the added physical strength, helps.

Sprocket, I agree that a Chartered Partner can integrate Scouting into its programs ... BUT I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH YOU THAT THE CHARTERED PARTNER CAN INTEGRATE ITS FAITH INTO SCOUTING. That the boys are enrolled in a Catholic School, and their parents have made agreement, does not provide the Pack official cover for religious education after school. I agree that Scouting and faith go together. I counsel the God and Country Protestant awards. I do that though, outside of unit program time. The sole exception was when I was asked by Venturers to counsel God and Life as part of their path to the Quest Bronze. I'm simply saying I agree with Scoutnut: Get written permission. That way, parents cannot later make a complaint on the record to Council that your parish was prosleytizing Scouts. That is a way for a Chartered Partner to forfeit a charter ... it's happened before. In the meantime, walk with Him and have fun with this activity for the vast majority who are Roman in your Pack.

Actually, when you read what emb021 says, and couple it with what Beavah says, there's a lot of common sense to be had. Yes, I can understand, even with affianced couples, checking the relationship at the door of the unit meeting, and checking the lusties when out on an adventure. Even so ... one of the very best trips I had with my fiancee`, 24 years ago, was when we seriously cross-country skied through the German backwoods outside of Garmisch Armed Forces Recreation Area. They'll find some bonds being strengthened even as they walk a trail together, and if they model how a couple should behave in a relationship, that's a help as well. Miss Jenn didn't give us the specifics of age. That's why I recommended they contact the local SE.

Welcome to our campfire. I think you'll find we're a friendly sort. We're willing to share, and we all have a lot to learn (me more than most)! Congratulations on becoming the principal leader of a group of groups of boys. You are going to make a huge difference in a lot of lives. It's been 39 years since I joined Troop 110, but Mr Weiss and Mr Wright both made an impact! Let's start with training. BSA offers a lot, some of it is online, and there are nuggets to be mined in all of it. First things first: Take Boy Scouting Fast Start. It's a 1/World overview of Boy Scouting. It's online at: http://olc.scouting.org/info/bsfs.html Then, Youth Protection Training. Saving the parent/child relationship, we always operate with two adults who mutually support each other: http://olc.scouting.org/info/ypt.html Scouts like to swim. Some aquatics management training is required by BSA: http://olc.scouting.org/info/ssd.html As the weather gets warmer, Scouts like being on/in watercraft. We have a different aquatics training involving boating: http://olc.scouting.org/info/saf.html Here's a good introduction to the Scouting Advancement ... which is both a METHOD of Scouting as well as a system: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/videos/advancement/index.html There's tons more online as you datamine further, but that's a start for time in front of the puter. There are four training packages you should take from your District training team: BSA New Leader Essentials. This is the common core for all Scouter training. Scoutmaster Fundamentals: This is the position specific training for you and your Assistant Scoutmasters. It helps you manage program execution. Scoutmaster Outdoor Leader: This is a hands-on, outdoor weekend. If you're not familiar with the outdoors, this gives you an introductory immersion. Finally, Merit Badge Counselor: Each of us has some special skill we can share with young men. 127 (+/-) skillsets are enshrined as Merit Badges ... and boys love to show off that they've learned a new skill ... BTW, (and this is my opinion), I don't expect a SM to be actively counseling, but he needs to know what to look for in good Counselors. So.. you need the training as much as the Counselors do. Your unit is supported by an array of local and wider area support systems, both from Scoutings Professional Service and from volunteers like us. For you, some key people to get to know are: - Your Unit Commissioner. He or she has been there, and done that. If he hasn't seen your challenges, he knows people who have, and can get you answers to your problems. I pray you draw a good one! - Your Roundtable Commissioner. He/she runs a monthly event, designed to give you about 45 days leadtime on the upcoming Scouting program themes. One month it may be citizenship, another aquatics, still a third cooking. - Your District Advancement Chairman. This is the guy/gal who is responsible, among other things, for approving Eagle Leadership Service Projects. He can also advise on "what right looks like" in the broader advancement world. - Your District Activities Chairman. This is the person who gets Camporees, Scouting For Food (or Good Turn for America), and Klondike Derbies organized. Thanks to him, two months outdoor activities in your program year come pre-packaged. I've thrown a lot of info at you in a short internet post. Don't try to absorb it at one sitting. Take what I and others will give you and make your own checklist of "stuff you need to do soon" and "stuff that can wait a while." Last, and most important thing: Premise of Boy Scouting is the troop is a miniature model representative democracy. There are roles and responsibilities for all. With coaching, the Scouts can do much of the program planning and implementation... and you're THE COACH! They'll need adult help, but we want them to learn to think and act for themselves. Take time for yourself along the way It's going to be a fun journey. YIS.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Count me in Lisa and Ed's camp. Scouting is a journey, not a race. Further, I'm part of the school that says "service hours count only once." The idea is to inculcate the habit, not to get a requirement done.

I agree with ScoutNut. BSA is by its nature non-sectarian. If you have non-Roman Cubs, you owe them an equally rewarding religious activity. You also cannot make them take denomination-specific training, just because "it's what the Den is doing." Here is some information from the Boy Scout program, but if you were to contact your Council Chaplain or your Council Relationships Committee, they'd take you down this same trail. Source document is BSA 18-625, Boy Scout Board of Review training: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/supplemental/18-625/18-625.pdf Duty to God "Scouting maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise, the member declares, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law." The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgement of his favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what religious faith a Scout might be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before him. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization of the group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. "In practical terms, this means that the Scout is expected to subscribe to these principles. Bear in mind that a Scout is trustworthy and further that he and his parents have subscribed to these principles when he joined Boy Scouting and that he has pledged his duty to God each time he recites or pledges the Scout Oath and Law. ..."The Boy Scouts of America does not define God for a Scout, nor does it interpret Gods rules. Those are matters, as said above, left to home and to the religious body to which the Scout belongs." ... We can also go back to BSA's Declaration of Religious Principle...(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I think we need to send Miss Jenn and her fiance` back to their local DE and perhaps SE, to get a read. This is one of those times where a competent and local member for the Professional Service needs to weigh in. That said, Beavah's post is a good strawman!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

GOnzo has a point. If the family unit needs strengthening and reduction of the language barrier is in order, a 12 month delay in getting on the Trail to Eagle will not be a major issue. OTOH, this young man probably already qualifies for an Interpreter's Strip. A quiet talk with Mom and Dad is in order. Then, we need to see how to obtain and leverage resources.

Not so fast, Keee-Mo-Sobby Novice CM!!!!! RT is designed for ALL LEADERS. Its stated purpose is to provide training on the forthcoming PROGRAM, generally 30-45 days ahead of program execution. Ideally, all registered program side leaders (DLs and ADLs, CM and ACMs) should attend, as should appropriate members (CC and advancement chair most urgently, various camp coordinators as day camp, family camp, Bear Camp, and Webelos Camp) kick into play each year. You are right though: The higher the impact, both in plenary session and in breakouts, the more often leaders will attend. YIS