John-in-KC

A year ago, our Venturing Crew was called on to do a Mic-o-Say opening and help with a end-of-year Pack meeting. We did three things: An adult member of the Tribal Council (a Scouter of long and great experience) used his "Fear of God" look and most serious voice to actually get the Cubs undivided attention. Our youth Tribesmen of the appropriate responsibility started the fire. Others did the flag ceremony and the Cub Promise and Law of the Pack. During the meeting, they danced a bit, and they also helped with the golly, gee whiz moment for graduating Cubs: Changing neckers. Several young men were not in attire; instead they were in Class A uniform and sat with the Cubs. It's amazing when a 9 year old sees a HS junior or senior, wearing his Scout uniform and his HS letter jacket. They are in absolute awe! Hope the tale helps... YIS John

In the Summer Camp Forum, in the thread where MarkS was calling for help because he was late on his unit National Tour Permit, scotteng wrote: "When all else fails have a good time and do the paperwork later. Maybe they will believe you when you say "you mean I need a tour permit to go to a BSA summer camp?" What can, should and does the Scout Oath, Law, Motto and Slogan mean to Scouters? Are we expected to honor the Values Method of Scouting? If not, why not?

"When all else fails have a good time and do the paperwork later. Maybe they will believe you when you say "you mean I need a tour permit to go to a BSA summer camp?" A Scout is Trustworthy. A Scout is Obedient. I have only rarely been sickened more by the attitude of some Scouters. Granted, 99% of the time, nothing is going to happen. It's the 1%. The following is a fictional "what happened:" If something does happen, the lawyers will be all over this, and BSA and the local Council will pay out the nose, protecting the chartered partner and the Scouters involved. Why? Because it's blindingly obvious: The unit knew its duty and conciously failed to comply. Any just out of law school wet behind the ears just passed his Bar exam 25 year old would ask in a deposition session: "Is there a process used by BSA, your Council, and the Troop to plan trips? Did you follow it? Did you ask about it?..." As Beavah tells us, Scoutings pockets will cover... but the Health and Safety folks would have every right to lay down Draconian rules upon Councils and units... including rejecting late permit requests out of hand. As Beavah says in the post below, Mark is doing the right thing by working this close and dynamically!!! My point is this: If someone deliberately blows off procedure, and it costs BSA $,$$$,$$$ from their liability insurance, we can lose the opportunity of "oops, I goofed" in getting National Tour Permits. If there were an accident, yes, Scouting should cover, but then the Scouters concerned should imo be removed from Scouting.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

One other comment: KNOW THE YOUNG MANS' ScoutNet NAME!!!! I was the rechartering guy once. At the time his name was Billy Jumpback, and we kept that for year X. As part of this, when I saw his ScoutNet record, his name was now Bob Billy Jumpback. Six merit badges and a rank advancement probably fell through the cracks to this. The "corrected copy" advancement report is ready to go in day after tomorrow, after I recheck all my notes.

The approving authority for National Tour Permits is, indeed, the BSA Regional HQ Offices. Call your DE. Do it now. Ask for his assistance. As EagleinKY said, it can be done, but you have to pony up your very best effort, and admit you goofed on timing. As to WHY of a tour permit, IT'S A PLANNING PROCESS... if you take your time and do it right, and follow the procedures in Tours and Expeditions, BSA Pub 33737D, you will find you dot the i's and cross the t's. Serious question: What's your "Plan B?"

It never hurts to call the Reservation Director directly and ask: "We just had a new boy join Pack 123. He's a Web; he wants to go to camp. Can you make room, please?" More often than not, unless the camp is full beyond overflowing, they'll get their shoehorn out! Professionals have metrics, those in program service include bed-nights!

Remember that a vacancy does not have to be filled from the ranks of the parents. It's just as right to fill a vacancy from the ranks of the Chartered Partner!

First, he was invisible. Then, he was gone ... relocated to the Carolinas. We have no UC at this time, and the ADC hasn't been out to see us either. Frankly, the system is designed to work, but if we don't pull on our oar, the boat doesn't get very far. Frustrating.

Recruiter strip/patch is one bauble... Many Councils have special things for kids who recruit other kids... There's always option of special "recruiters only" activity.

Lisa, I think I agree with you in your last. Every case has to be taken on its merits. Generalizations only work to a point. That said, the young widow, AFAIAC, has her child in wedlock. It's her sadness that her husband gave his life to our Nation. The young woman whose husband abandons her also AFAIAC has her child in wedlock. It's her sadness she chose someone who wasn't willing to honor the marriage vow. In the end, I still think Beavah nailed it: This is one reason we have Chartered Partners. They, not us fellow Scouters, are the ones who must sign off on a leader. They're the ones who have to do the truly deep searching.

DAY CAMP, DAY CAMP, DAY CAMP!!!! Our Council offers the Early Bird price even if the new Tiger shows up on Day 1 of camp with his app and his money. We really think it's a huge recruiting tool. Even if the Tiger isn't strong enough for the archery range, I'll bet he'll love slingshots!! Every young boy I know likes weapons; let him learn firearms safety from Day 1. Besides, who doesn't want to see a 7 year old with a bird house and a concrete stepping stone he put the marbles into all by himself? Lisa, you're more current on Tiger rules than I... is the 1/1 relationship extend to DC Tigers? Lord knows lots of activities require adults to focus beyond Johnny or Billy and help Jimmie and David.

Everything Beavah said, and one more... Rot happens, even to nylon. Set your tent up sometime when it's dry. Look, closely, at each face of the tent... floor, walls, roof, fly. Look for where the rubber/vinyl compound has separated from the nylon. Look for crazing, cracks, or tears in the rubber/nylon as well. As far as tentage goes, I'm not going to say get a brand name... rather, find an outdoor supplier who stands behind the products they sell. Certainly one institution in the outdoor industry is Recreational Equipment, Incorporated (www.rei.com). They were there when Eddie Bauer was an expedition outfitter. They're still there!!!, Eddie Bauer is leisure lifestyle indoors. Cabela's and Bass Pro are more "heavy camping" than REI, but they also have to stand behind their products... their business reputation rides on it. There are other, regional outfitters as well. Spend time at the shop, ask lots of questions: A good outfitter will take the time to make the right sale! If you get to Philmont Training Center the PSR Trading Post is good at outdoor equipping and education as well.

Yee-haaaa!!!!! That's mentoring leadership in action!!!! Way to go!!!! I promise, you're going to learn more and be a better SM for doing this work. Thank you for giving to those young men in your Troop!

I have to agree. Sticking the SM with a cold call on a boy has potential of image of non-youth-protection. Has anyone thought about dividing the list by SCHOOLS??, then sending out the list to units based on where they catch youth? David, the Star Scout, just might be willing to invite Jack, the "dropped out of Webelos." When we do internet recharter, there's a portion of the report which lists the dropped youth. Maybe, just maybe, we ought to have units ask "Why is Billy dropping" as part of the recharter process. Thoughts?

Lisa, If my Troop was having to cancel outings for transport and 2-deep leadership, and I got your offer to assist, I'd thank you with open arms and the flowers of your choice!!! It's about the youth. You may not be an ASM, but you are a WoodBadger. Let the kids teach you a little about things outdoors (even if you know them). I would, as a matter of courtesy, inform both your SM and your CC. You're wanting to help a friend out with his Scouting charges, not bail out on your own unit. BTW, after your son completes his time in the program, you're much more free to find a unit that needs an extra pair of hands as well

I would contact your COR, first and foremost. The Chartered Partner has the responsibility to select leaders for the Troop. The very next call is to the Committee Chair. You and he need to set an actual transition date. The call after that is to the UC... ask for any pointers on transferring the responsibilities ... he's probably been there and done it, and can give you ideas to trigger activity in you. Involve your PLC as soon as reasonable as well. They deserve to know that it's happening. If there is any sort of adult struggles in the unit, and your quitting is part of it, THAT they don't need to know. Be courteous, be gentle in doing the deed. The bridges you built in Socuting may be of value in the rest of your life some other day.

Ask them: What is the most recent change in the T-2-1 Advancement plan? Who does that affect? Answer: - SM, as program officer - TC Advancement Coordinator: Does he/she have the most recent updates to Troopmaster (or whatever other automation your unit uses to track advancement?) - TC Treasurer: Who pays for the SW upgrade? That's just one little tiny piece of program, in one method of Boy Scouting...

To me, the first best way is "around the camfire." Informal, quiet, reflective, fun. That's what I'm doing tonight, in fact. The Great American BBQ Contest is going on in Kansas City. 100 acres plus of BBQ competition. A very good friends' troop puts a team in every year of their best adult cooks. (There is a floor age to competing). We're going to have dinner and talk into the night. The next best way is "at roundtable." As a RT staffer, I get to meet lots of first time Scouters. We get them to NLE, YP and MBC trainings (we hold those every month under the RT hat). We also get to talk with these folk during pre-opening and as they wander our District Committee activity mall (our district could be a 600 series council all by itself, we have 56 troops and 65 Packs). Oh, here is a good place for those who happen upon it. My thoughts...

Scotteng, Good points. Lucy, Thanks for your most recent post! You're actually doing the right thing of looking for cost-effective ways for the Troop to get to camp. The Committee's job is to resource the program. If you've not taken the opportunities, may I suggest the following training: - New Leader Essentials. - Troop Committee Challenge (position specific package for the TC member). - Merit Badge Counselor (I assume you are already youth protection current). Please, keep us informed as this gets to a conclusion on go-to-camp day!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I'll endorse everything emb021 said. My contributions: ACTIVE LISTENING. Synthesizing from them what they want to do is your vital role. Don't assume because they were Boy Scouts that camping and hiking is all they want to do. Use the interest inventories. Find out where their heads are. If all your guys are varsity footballers, you may find they want to coach Pop Warner as part of the Sports Bronze! Looking for resources: They're tech savvy kids, most likely... and they'll be able to find an array of Consultants, all on their own. What they may not be able to do is vet those consultants. You've probably used 3d party vendors in your day job, you can help them ask the right questions. Moving the Core: If this Crew is built around these young men, then it will have a 3-5 year (max) shelf life. Your biggest single challenge is to help them design a plan for continuity. It may mean your crew focus changes over time!!! Wish you great success in this!

Scotteng, Yes, there should be two adults to share the driving burden, but that cannot extend the driving day. As I recall, 750 miles is the very extreme of a one-day drive; it may be shorter. As I thought further of Lisa's post on the National Tour Permit, we should commend Lucy to Tours and Expeditions, BSA Pub 33737D. This is the source pub for the National Tour Permit, and contains policy level information.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Hi again, Lucy, First, Lisa is absolutely right about the National Tour Permit!!! Second, you need 22 passenger seat belts. You may need additional seat belts for driving. While what is done is done, when your PLC selected this camp a year ago and more, was transportation a planning consideration? I think your SM should drive the lesson home to them, AND TO THE TROOP COMMITTEE, in the aftermath. The Committee's job is to resource the program. OK, options, in no particular order: - Contact the local bus company (school or charter): What is their cost to do a r/t to take you up, and another to take you home? Bus companies can and do pre-position drivers so the trip can continue without a overnight stop for the passengers. - Be blunt with parents: This camp gets cancelled if you don't step up to the plate. You will not get 100 cents on the dollar back; the camp will take a cancellation cut. You will pay more to send your Scout to the local Council camp. I WOULD RECOMMEND THE SENIOR PATROL LEADER BE THE ONE TO BE THE 'BAD COP' IN THIS CASE. If we are empowering the youth to design and execute the program, we also commit to supporting them in that... and this has been known camp for a year! - I would ask the 12 pax van family if they are willing to shuttle in return for gas $$$. That gets you 11 seatbelts of the 22 you need. - Four adults going; that's in theory 4 cars. That could be up to 12 additional seat belts. How many seat belts there? Frankly, I'm loath to go the cancellation route if you can possibly avoid it. Scouts will quickly get the point that your Troop is "Adult-Run." You'll find they stop taking iniative on things quickly. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Welcome to the Forums. We can give you some ideas, but we really need a little more info than what you've given us... How many Scouts are going? How many adults? How many seatbelts do you already have committed? How many are you short? Do you have a Troop Trailer? Is it accounted for in towage? Have you talked to parents who are not going to Scout Camp and asked for their help? Have you talked to your chartered Partner about TWO ROUND TRIPS with their busses: Out on Sunday and back the following Saturday? Have parents started asking friends and neighbors for a helping hand?

My answer is "Depends." Scouters being in the Chartered Partner should be a two-way street. Not everyone is going to fit every chartered partner. Dad X is Conservate Jewish by specific profession of faith. The local troop his child is in is chartered by a Presbyterian church. Am I going to drop one to join the other? Probably not. Mom Y is a CPA. Her son attends a Troop chartered by a a local law firm, because they were both Eagles and believe in Scouting. Is she going to change professions and join the firm? Probably not. Mom and Dad Z have hung out their business shingle in, and are becoming involved in, their local community. The local Rotary Club charters their sons' Pack and Troop. Mom and Dad are the Advancement Coordinator and an ASM, respectively. The Rotary Club is looking for new members. Might there be a fit for Mom and Dad??? Quite possibly... Carpenter A is retired from the trade, but he knows A LOT about small building design and construction. Collaterally, he's worked concrete, helped the electricians, and painted in his day. He's a member of Church B, which charters Troop 123. Might he be a Merit Badge Counselor for several trades MBs, and also help kids who are planning Eagle Leadership Service Projects??? ... Mr B is a member of the local VFW. He's the services officer for the local Post. He's very, very good at helping Veterans get what they are entitled to from the VA. Frankly, he's swamped. That "one hour a week" we want, he truly cannot give. Even so, he's been asked to speak at a Court of Honor or two. His tale is riveting. The perfect relationship is symbiotic. Most unit/CP relationships aren't yet perfect.

Trev, As you know, I'm more a Uniform Licensee than a bona fide member of the Uniform Police, let alone a Uniform Pharisee. Would I like every young man in Cubbing and Boy Scouting to be correctly attired, all the patches right, and smiling that perfect smile? Yes. Is it a pipe dream? Yes. We've heard the tales of Scoutreach units where the uniforms come from other Troops castoffs from the experienced uniform closet. What do I want? Every Scout neat and clean, and in a common uniform. If the best that can be is blue jeans and a Troop T-shirt, so be it. In the meantime, I'm more frustrated at the parent who initiated this thread. We still don't know if they are/are not a Scouter, and wear the uniform with pride on their own. Boy led does not mean adults do not have to set examples.