John-in-KC

BTW, welcome to the campfire! Now I see the challenge a bit more clearly. The cross-talk between the SM and the ASMs is thin. It hasn't hurt your Troop ... yet. It may, someday, bite you on the backside, and eventually to hurt the program we are here to deliver to the youth. There are hints of this both in your initial post and in your most recent post. It sounds to me like a good old-fashioned cracker barrel is in order. I'd recommend the players be you, the SM, and the ASMs, and perhaps the COR. A neutral person such as your UC or one of the ADCs (you want someone well-qualified to draw folks out and get the challenges, as well as brainstormed solutions onto the table) would be a handy person as well. Two starting points for tools to help guide the cracker barrel are: The Unit Commissioner worksheet: http://www.scouting.org/forms/34126.pdf The Troop or team Self Assessment: http://www.scouting.org/forms/33618/33618-27.pdf I say starting points very deliberately. I'll bet dinner what will arise will include "How YOU should be running things" (mutual expectations), "how YOU should be doing things" (division of labor), "I ONLY HAVE two hours a week" (abilities to serve), and levels of training. Someone who can actively listen, who can manage issues (eat the elephant one bite at a time), who can refocus YOU to I or WE and who can keep the "storming" group dynamic in check will be a huge aid to success. Finally, manage the time. I don't think you'll come to resolution on everything in 1-2 hours, but after a couple of hours, folks are going to hit the wall. Manage the issues, manage the time. Beavah, you got anything to say???

Crossramwedge, you said in part "I want to be open minded. I know that the SM has his side." Go back and look at both your Troop Committee Guidebook and your Scoutmaster's Handbook. Both talk of the working relationship between SM and CC. All of us who serve as Scouters owe the youth in the program time cross-talking with each other outside of meetings and functions. I just got off the phone with my Crew Advisor not an hour ago, talking about exactly ONE young man and how we are going to handle him. As far as selection and retention of leaders, there is a process from the National Council: http://www.scouting.org/commissioners/resources/18-981.pdf As Scoutldr intimates, if the process works right, the Chartered Partner, the Committee, and the SM work together to find leaders. The COR is the approving authority. And lest we forget, here are the basic duties of a SM, as defined in "Selecting Quality Leaders": Scoutmaster Position Description: The Scoutmaster is responsible for training and guiding youth leaders in the operation of the troop, and for managing, training, and supporting his or her assistant Scoutmasters in their role. Scoutmaster Duties Conduct the Boy Scout program according to the policies of the Boy Scouts of America. Train youth leaders by conducting, at least yearly, an introduction to leadership and a team-building workshop. Conduct an annual troop program planning conference to assist youth leaders in planning the troop program. Conduct a monthly patrol leaders' council meeting to plan weekly troop meetings and conduct troop business. Conduct, through the patrol leaders' council, weekly troop meetings. Provide a minimum of 10 days and nights of camping yearly, including participation in a local council resident camp. Assist in selecting and recruiting assistant Scoutmasters to work with the new-Scout patrol and the Venture patrol for older Scouts. Work with the troop committee chair in developing a monthly meeting agenda that will address the needs of the troop. Conduct Scoutmaster conferences for all ranks. Participate in Boy Scout Leader Fast Start Training, New Leader Essentials, and Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training. Provide the necessary framework (using the BSA's Youth Protection program) for protecting the young people in your troop from abuse. See that activities are conducted within BSA safety guidelines and requirements.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

How often do you have a quiet cup of coffee with your SM, away from Troop meetings and Troop Committee? The two of you need to have a common vision of what the Troop should be in 6 months, a year, and two years!! Then you need goals... Finally you need ways and means... Input from your ASMs can be useful, but it does not replace your own eyes, ears, and judgment. Your SM may have a new day job, and may only have a week of vacation. I'd be wont to give that over to Scouting and forfeit time with my wife and kid (if I still had a wife). What PeteM, Scott, and Oak Tree all said applies!

Prepare to Flog Dead Horse!! FLOG.... DEADHORSE!!! http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=59557 DING DONG THE BERET IS DEAD...THE BERET IS DEAD...THE BERET IS DEAD... Boonie hats ROCK! ... they're practical too!

After reading Beavah and Lisa, ... I asked for war stories deliberately, I'm in a quandry about such a young man. The practical experience of othes was a help We'll make definite contact, away from the meeting, with the particular young man. We'll lay out where he is and where the "dates certain" are. We'll tell him if he shows initiative and commitment, we'll respond with support. If he decides his spot on the trail has a good view, that will be OK. If he decides to pick up his pack and move up the trail, we'll be there.

YOWZAA!!! A chance to vent to the National Advancement Committee!!! My words: "Question 6: What do you find frustrating about being a merit badge counselor?" The lack of crosswalk between requirements and textual material in a MB pamphlet. The dryness of a current MB pamphlet. I have my own pamphlets from my youth, they were written to ENCOURAGE you to do things!!! PARENTS COUNSELING THEIR OWN SCOUTS!!! Integrity? Sadly, around here, not when it's their own child!! In-house Eagle required Merit Badges. Troops and Crews should be limited to having no more than 5 Eagle required MBs in their internal counselor list. Force the youth to find a Counselor. Strengthen the Adult Association Method. Counselors who won't support a young man from outside their troop. "Question 7: 7. What resources would you like to have that might make being a merit badge counselor less complicated and more enjoyable?" You've taken the first step: Putting BSA requirements online. Incorporate "age and school-grade appropriate" into No-More, No-Less. I've had a tenth grader try to pawn off 6th grade quality work and say he got it done. I had to call in my District Advancement Chairman for backup!!! COMMITMENT to serving all Scouts, not just members of the home Troop/Team/Crew. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ BTW, I just looked at the youth survey. Someone needs to go back and find Pedro, the mailburro. Can you say B...O...R...I...N...G!!!????

Withdrawn whilst I consider Beavah's post.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

1) The first person to ask, locally, for an authoritative answer would be your District Advancement Chairman! 2) Another local person to ask would be your Unit Commissioner! 3) A third person would be the Professional Staff Adviser to the Council Advancement Committee! Locally (which doesn't necessarily answer your question), our Troop and Crew do not wash Eagle Leadership Service Project funds through the Treasury. Why? It's an added bureaucratic step for the Scout. He's having an exciting time trying to get a project up and running, why add to his frustration. Equally, one of our District heroes authorizes a credit to his construction company business account at a local construction supply wholesaler. How would you account for that?

We've all seen him before. He got Life on time, about age 14, did his POR time, then he stalled. He continues in the unit because his friends are there. He's done his share of the work. He's done some advancement, but not seriously worked those last few Eagle required MBs. We all understand the rules and our part as Scouters in his growth, development, and advancement. (That's why I spun this from OGE's post ) He's 17 now. The first bell to aging out has rung. The next one comes in 9 months. If he hasn't started Personal Fitness, Personal Management, and Family Life in time to get the 90 day requirement done, then it's over. As a Scouter, you're prepared to invest whatever you can to help him, but he has to get his fourth point of contact off the sofa and into gear. He's got to show some initiative. He's worth the effort for one last wake-up call. What's your war story here? How hard have you pushed?

I'd probably encourage this Crew to do hand over heart. Even Major League Baseball teams in full uniform do hand over heart (with ballcap). Cub and Boy Scouts have distinctive salute forms: Two and three fingers, not whole hand. If you look at the tradition of a salute, it is, in part, to show the rendering of honors, and that the parties did not have arms in hand. In fact, there are definite and prescribed salutes for being under arms with a host of different weapons. There is nothing wrong with most civilians doing hand over heart ... including Venturers.

It may be easier to take a smaller portion of the Troop to a high adventure camp than it is to displace the Troop to a new camp. Arguments that sell parents are not necessarily the program, but rather cost... both in terms of basic cost and in terms of transportation cost. As a CC, my SM and SPL came to a meeting. SPL proposed the Troop do a HA. Committe said OK, now pick one. We made the youth do the basic research. Take the initiative. Do some basic research. I'll bet there is a significant HA camp within a days drive of your home city!

Lee, Welcome to adult Scoutering!!! I trust you have plans to take Youth Protection, Merit Badge Counselor, Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster Specific, and Outdoor Leader for Scoutmasters... not to mention BALOO, Den Leader Specific, Webelos Den Specific, Cubmaster Specific, Troop Committee Challenge... 1st point: BSA has a wealth of adult leader training. Take some time and enjoy it. 2d point: Re-rolling as an Assistant Scoutmaster in the Troop of your youth isn't always the best option, either for you or the kids. You have a chance to make new associations now, and to act with the adults as a peer. Have you considered going across town to a different Troop, or jumping back to Cub Scouts and serving as an ACM or ADL? I would take Lisa's post and print it out. There is much meat on those bones, and it's worthy of critical study. You have 50-60 years ahead of you, Lord willing, of fantastic friendships and great times ... because you want to serve youth. Enjoy the journey, and take time to enjoy the views! You'll be amazed at many of them. YIS

Gern, No, K-12 education should continue to be mandatory. Federal funding of education is one of our problems. The several States need to be the focal points of education. I've watched my son go through secondary education under NCLB. He has good teachers; they are not teaching the test. That said, his school day is longer than mine ever was, his lunch break is shorter, and the young people don't get a chance to get out and get some fresh air and exercise (sometimes called PE). Of course, what Beavah said about taking God out of the schoolhouse is true. We need a Supreme Court which looks at what the Framers meant, not what William O Douglas convinced the Court to change to in 1947.

J-Dawg, In another thread, I believe you said you were a TG at the moment. In your Troop, do TG's sit PLC? If so, you have ready opportunity to be an agent of change! If not, it's time to start lobbying the SPL. Now, if your Troop operates using the (sarcasm)Adult-Led(/sarcasm) method, it may be time for the youth to get together and start taking things back! At the same time, money and time have to enter the equation. Gas is $3.00 a gallon right now. The farther you travel, the more you will have to plan into the budget transportation costs. BTW, if you go more than 10 driving hours from home, your unit has to plan an overnight break in travel. As I recall, you have a couple of great camps in the NE part of Oklahoma, including one that focuses on Lakefront aquatics as a major program element. Have you thought of doing an internet search on the various camps and their opportunities, to start the lobbying for next year? Let us know how this turns out. YIS

J-Dawg, First, I meant ONE of those folk!!! Second, you were out on white water. The risk level ticked up a notch. It's the old Pool rule, ten times more so: NO HORSEPLAY!! This Scouter hazarded his charges. Why is he at camp? To me, it's not the reason we who are Scouters should be at camp: To serve our youth. From your description, I doubt he's going to get an attack of conscience all by himself. Someone (or several someones) are going to need to encourage that in him. Hence, the process. Remember, though, what Beavah said in his post: ..."resolve never to be "that guy" yourself ..."

Beavah and Merlyn LeRoy colloquied in part: Beavah wrote this: Your argument would have more merit if you supported equal access everywhere - includin' to government resources and government sponsored environments. As it is, it seems to me you are just tryin' to be more exclusive and discriminatory than you claim da BSA is. Merlyn responded with this: Only from your warped perspective. When has an ad hominem attack ever helped move a debate forward? Merlyn, Beavah tried to bottom-line your position in his last sentence. It seems to me he deserves a coherent response, not an ad hominem attack.

What Beavah said. I will commend to you the process in Matthew 18: In a perfect world, you could quietly have a conversation with this gentleman. I suspect though that's not going to work. He probably isn't the type to listen to one Scout. The next step is for several witnesses (hopefully including your SM) should quietly confront and discuss the issue with the gentleman in question. If he sess his error, problem solved. If he does not see his error, bump the level up a notch: In this case, a visit by several witnesses to a camp Commissioner, the lakefront director, or the Camp Director would be in order. Welcome to our Forums.

Sweet carbos??? MONKEY BREAD!!!! BISCUITS IN THE DUTCH OVEN, honey on the table!!! Of the two, I'm more inclined to biscuits at this time of year, monkey bread requires a certain amount of serious preparation and is better lended to the cooler seasons.

They're both tradition and program... tradition because they've been going for 75 years plus, program because they are part of the camp program: At the H Roe Bartle Scout Reservation (Heart of America Council, Kansas City, MO) and the Geiger Scout Reservation (Pony Express Council, St Joseph, MO), we have the Tribe of Mic-O-Say, founded by Chief Lone Bear, H Roe Bartle (Scout Executive in St Joe 1925-8, KC 1929-54 or so, and Mayor of Kansas City 1955-63). BTW, the late Lamar Hunt, first owner of the Kansas City Chiefs, named the team for the Chief... H Roe Bartle!! Broad, general information about each branch of the Tribe is available at the Council websites. As with OA, mystery is a tool to develop a childs' mind, so we guard well the Inner Circle. This week, through the Tribe, Geiger recognized 74 3d year, 50+ 4th year, 40 5th year, 20 6th year, a dozen 7th year, and three 8th year campers. That means some of these Tribesmen started at age 11 and have transitioned to being young adult ASMs in their Troops! At Bartle, the numbers will be on the order of 150 4th year (there are minor program differences between the two branches of the Tribe), 130 5th year, 90 6th year, 65 7th year, and 30 8th year campers!! These kinds of numbers will happen each session for six sessions of summer camp at each of these two Scout Reservations Camp traditions which keep the youth in Scouting are very good indeed! In Friendship and Warmth, John(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Beav, IF (and please take this with a grain of salt) I understand my State's statutes correctly, 21 is the threshold age to be accountable for management of a non-profit groups funds. Goes right along with the age to hold a bond for any purpose, profit or non-profit. So, where I live, the Venturer Treasurer has to have a second name on the checkbook, that of an over-21 to be accountable. Otherwise, I see a Crew Committee as consultants on the "nuts and bolts" of various planning and support. If I remember the demographics, the median age of Venturing is actually right at 17. Ramps up nicely from 14, falls off precipitously around 19 1/2.

Mr Brotherhood WWW's post goes back to our discussion in the WB and Adult Leader Training Forum, where Lisa'Bob asked about Eagles making good leaders. To me, it's all about an attitude of servant leadership! If a Scouter (with or without youth program experience) has an attitude of "how can I learn to serve these young people better; how can I and my peers serve them better?" then all will be well. OTOH, "Look at me, I'm a (insert honorific here), I don't need training", then it's time to run away ... far far away, from that leader. In the time I was a Scout to the day I first signed an Adult Leader application ... - We've quit digging trenches for fires. - We don't cut browse for camp beds. - We have to think about water purity in the deepest backcountry. Training matters. Training matters! Desire matters! Leading by serving matters!

Welcome to the Forums. Thank you for caring about these young men. There's a lot here we don't know, so our answers may not be the best fit to your situation. I could not tell if you have tried taking your CC someplace for a cup of coffee, and discussing the challenges away from the youth. That is absolutely step 1. You are the Scoutmaster. Your mission as the Program Officer allows you direct access to Commissioners, the Professional Service, and the Institutional Head or Executive Officer. I accept your comments are true, and eqaully accept that the Chartered Organization Representative is not taking action. You are the right PERSON to take the next step; the right person to contact is the Institutional Head or Executive Officer of your Chartered Partner. I would, at the same time, contact your Commissioner. Lay the issues on the table. Be clear and concise. Offer solutions which are in the realm of the resonable and do-able. Ask for other solutions which you have not worked through. There is a "atomic bomb" option. IF, and only IF, you believe your CC is a clear and present danger to the youth, then contact your DE or SE. This is an exceptionally drastic measure, as your SE in most States has statutory reporting requirements under child danger laws. If you use this drastic option, a "no-holds-barred" meeting with the IH/COR is in order: It is time for them to choose between the CC and you. You do have other, much less drastic options: - As SM, you are the Program Officer. You can, legitimately, bar all but your ASMs from meetings. Tell your CC if she has any comments about how the Troop does business to address them to you and only you. She does not make program decisions: The PLC, under your guidance (and in your interaction with the Committee) does that. - If the CC refuses to leave your area of responsibility and authority as the SM, you may, legitimately, step down and leave the Troop of your own volition. Please, please, coordinate this with your IH/COR and Commissioner. If you are not allowed the latitude to make the Troop a right and proper Scouting unit, then say so in your good-bye letter. - Go to your District RT. Ask other SMs if they've had a similar issue. Find out how they've handled it. While this is new to you, it's neither the first nor the last time this has happened in the history of Scouting. Finally, take all this with a grain of salt. Listen to what others here will offer. Somewhere in the middle, you'll grab ideas which will fit who you are and how you want to react to this. Keep us informed, please. YIS.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

UPDATE: Our ADC finally called our Crew Advisor last night: "What can we do to convince you not to close your Crew?" His answer: "All but 3 of the kids are scattering to other Councils and other units as they go to college. Why should we keep a Crew open?" The response, according to the Advisor: "But...but...but... we won't get Quality District!" His answer: "And that affects the size of my Scouting paycheck in what way?" BTW, knowing my Advisor (he's a WB fox and was a TG for my WB course), he might have answered differently had ADC asked "How can we serve the remaining 3 youth?"...(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Which brings us full circle, Mr SR540Beaver... As I said, the SE, Council President and Council Commissioner were out gladhanding folks, welcoming them to camp... in the staff uniform. Today's paradox: Your statement is both true and false, at least in this particular neck of the woods.

No, I saw 6/13 on the original post and went to town. I gotta say, though, with the materials National is putting on the National Website, there are fewer and fewer of "the secret files of Irving" we volunteers in the field have to muck with