John-in-KC

Yep, I saw it.

For the older teen members of Scouting, I have to agree with IM_Kathy. If they're in band... that parade may be curricular in nature. Ditto teams and vocal ensembles. One other thing is a lot of chambers of commerce don't do as much as they should about getting pre-parade publicity to non-profits. You see the businesses, which are connected with the Chambers, doing things.

SSS, Apologies. I mis-interpreted your statement. To me, the ultimate measure of success of our work as Scouters is when the Oath and Law are lifetime, living, breathing elements of the next generations' lives. Beavah will understand this: Christians operate from a starting position of "All humanity are sinners and fallen." From this context, a value set that tries to cover the temporal life gives superb touchstones. That's my read on the world this wintry day.

Ahhhh... but the Chartered Partner has inherent right of veto over everything a BSA unit does. The Chartered Partner is the licensee of record to BSA, not the officers of the Crew.

I can live with that Ed. That said, it most assuredly includes the 168-2 hours a week the Troop isn't meeting, the 30-2 days a month the Troop isn't short term camping, and the 52-1 (or 2) weeks a year the Troop isn't LT camping!!!

"If the Scout's Scout Spirit is evident in his non-Scout life, so much the better I say." Absolute 180 degrees out from true. Scout Spirit is what we expect from the young man when he's away from our eyes and ears. It's the goal we strive to instill in him. Here are the definitions, straight from the scouting.org website, which conform to Requirements #33215 and the Boy Scout Handbook: At Scout: Understand and agree to live by the Scout Oath or Promise, Law, motto, and slogan, and the Outdoor Code. At T-2-1-S-L and Palms: Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life. At Eagle: Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious, educational, and employer references. Scout Spirit is not about the meeting hall or the campout. It's about the Oath and Law 24/7/365/lifetime.

Here's where I see the rub: Both your units (Teri and Stosh) will fly under the radar ... unless there is a firing accident/firing incident (AR 385-63 terminology (that's the reg covering weapons safety)). If something happens... 1) If it's in your unit, Scouting will most likely pay off the liability claims, as Beavah has often noted. I'd not be surprised, though, to see your membership in Scouting revoked. 2) If the incident is elsewhere, and BSA legal decides enough is enough, there will be cease and desist guidance sent out to the Councils, and you'll be told in no uncertain terms "stop." From what Beavah has told us, much of the stuff in G2SS goes there because of BSA legal responses to other people's accidents. I'm just glad it's you who are taking this risk, not I. A former battalion commander of mine had his career cut off at the knees... simply because one of his batteries shot short of the impact area at Grafenwoehr. Of course, that the firing incident also took the S-3, the Battalion FDO, the Battery XO, First Sergeant, Chief of Firing Battery, Gunnery Sergeant AND Section Chief meant his failure to supervise and enforce supervision cost seven men their careers. Artillery is the King of Battle

HC, diogenes is out in the Oil Patch of Texas. His council is likely very big in size and relatively small in its unit census (both units and people). I wouldn't be surprised to find 20 LDS troops in the entire Council to be on the high side. diogenes, The most effective way to get at this problem is to get a senior LDS person on the Council Exec Board, which I think you have. He then needs to stare the Reservation Director and the Camping Committee chair in the eyes and say: Support us, dagnabit. If there is enough LDS population to support an LDS specific session, maybe that's a ticket. I know Kansas City has a far greater population density for LDS than your neck of the woods, but we've pretty much dedicated one session at one of our Scout Camps to LDS. Units arrive Monday, early and leave Saturday late (like after campfire). It's busy, but they get it done.

Unfortunately, when your nightly bed-down is 600, it takes some hard scut work to prepare the camp for the season. Would you have Councils extend staff contracts by a week and pay youth staff to do it? Where does that money come from? Bingo. CAMP FEES. Youth members, who can currently vote, need to understand a simple fact: Money has to come from somewhere, or be converted to sweat equity.

shortridge, My last concern at this point is from the perspective of the military unit. There are ways to properly dispose of excess property, be the unit active, reserve, or National Guard. On the military side, they need to do the property disposal properly. On the Scout unit side, they need to keep any transfer paperwork they receive with the proper for an extended timeframe: 5 years or so. The last thing anyone needs is a claim the property was transferred improperly, or that Federal property was "diverted." It's not pretty

SSScout, Remember the requirement is to have a Scoutmaster conference, not pass it. The decision point is the EBOR, which must be unanimous, and if not so, must give the Scout his options for recourse. If a Troop is having a drain of 15-17 year olds, it's time for adults to ask "Are we delivering the promise to this end of the program?" There are retention tools, use them.

I hate to say this, because we want our Scouts to be fully responsible young people... They ... are ... children. They're under 18. From what basementdweller wrote, I'm not sure these folks were BabySitters of America types. We can work with the youth members all we should, rightly and properly, but if we're not cross-communicating with the adults, things will happen. Loaning out gear comes with someone being a guarantor. That someone should be the parent. They need to know what's being done and why. My thoughts.

Eagle 92: Six Words: GO FOR IT!! DON'T LOOK BACK!!!

Unit gear (tents, stoves, lanterns, kitchen gear, footlockers) can always find a home. Uniforms (shirts, pants, hats, field jackets) ... there the situation gets dicey. OTOH... other uniform items (fleece jackets, polypro underwear, wool watch caps, e-tools, water bottles, boots)... they're stuff kids and adults can use. As I recall, you're a former DE. Network in with folks and get their opinions as well. My thought is donate the stuff that is uniform parts and would make your units look like junior soldiers ... send it to the Salvation Army. See if they're willing to swap you for gently used blue jeans and other things boys need too. My thoughts only.

Our induction weekends have teams doing both Ordeal and the Brotherhood. Lots of adults are out doing a host of work as well, from camp cookery to the various general contractors who donate time and earth-moving equipment. The work team leaders also take time to explain why the work matters to the Camp and the Council.

Shortridge.... Fgoodwin's post: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=219842&p=4#id_220288 which in turn points to Scouting Magazine: http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0510/d-lett.html which in turn cites BSA R&R, to wit: According to the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA No. 57-492), under "Insignia, Uniforms, and Badges," Clause 4(b) states: "Imitation of United States Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps uniforms is prohibited, in accordance with the provisions of the organization's Charter." Have I made sense now? Stosh, Like you, I use an e-tool. Most often it comes in handy moving coals around the Dutch I use GI blankets, even now, and Lord knows my rain top is GI. I do maintenance work, and it withstands abuse far better than the current commercial stuff. As for your re-enacting Venturing Crew, as I recall, you're not wearing current ACU or even generation past BDU. That said, I still am curious about how you get around the absolute prohibition on large bore weaponry (cannon) in G2SS.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Keep talking to him. Emphasize the leadership part ... challenge him to make his project bigger in scope, so that it needs other people, who he must lead!

Are we talking personal gear (TA-50 in Army speak), or are we talking organizaitonal gear (tents, cots, water cans, kitchen gear?). The prohibition in the BSA Rules and Regulations, which derives from our Congressional Charter, is we're not the Junior Army. We're Scouts. I know lots of kids who learned to camp using shelter half pup tents, back in the day. One caution Much military gas powered gear (stoves, lanterns, and such) is designed to take Motor Gasoline (mogas). Dad made his Army camp stove work on white gas, but it's not the easiest thing in the world to do.

Look at their needs and interests. Maybe it's more appropriate that your Chartered Partner establish a Venturing Crew, to support them. You might find they re-engage if they're being challenged in a field that matters to them. Although Beavah disagrees with the policy , Scout advancement can continue in the context of a Venturing Crew. They can earn Eagle there.

Samzpop, Welcome to the Forums. First, the six month requirement may be met at any point in their cycle. If the Scout made Life at 14, got his POR and membership time by 15, and then was invisible to the Troop for a couple years, in the eyes of Scouting, he has met the qualification. AlFansome has quoted what is both on the BSA website and Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088. Allow me to be blunt: Your predecessor and your Committee Chairman allowed ghosts to occupy the seats of your Troop meetings and campouts. You're now stuck as a gatekeeper without much of a gate to use. You can build the fences and the gates for the future, but for these young men, you may find yourself having to support them, no matter how frustrating for you. Have a quiet talk with your friendly Unit Commissioner, District Membership Chair, and District Advancement Chair. Talk to other Scoutmasters. Ask how they manage youth who effectively drop out, and how they work with youth who decide to return. (Hint: If a youth doesn't pay the unit fees at recharter time, have your recharter person drop him. You're the one who signs the charter app, not your CC). After that talk, have a quiet talk with your Committee Chair and your COR. Propose how you will manage ghost youth ... but then you have to be fair and consistent in implementing it. Have I answered your question?

Start with the Scout. What are his hobbies and interests? How can those be tranlated into a significant service project where the Scout must show leadership. Help him find his way I know a young man, now a university sophomore in journalism. For his ELSP he did the Library of Congress Veteran's Oral History Project. He coordinated cameras for digital video tapings. He had Scouts operating the cameras. He trained Scouts to do the interviews. He trained adults to review the interviews and do some follow-up, if need or desire be. He had other Scouts edit and manipulate the raw data onto CDs, which the supported agency (our chartered partner, a VFW post), the veteran, and the Library of Congress received. At this point, he was an 8th grader. From that, he was able to do four years of HS newspaper, and went on to a century-old J-School. Help the young man find something he himself is interested in. Don't be afraid of a "cerebral" project. Talk with your District Advancement Chair if you have any doubts about how well the project might fly.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I'll endorse what Lisa said, especially to advancement. Now... trips. Tour Permits are not supposed to be a check a block,/i>, they are a process that makes sure you can get Scouts from A--->B and back in support of program activities. If a unit thinks about planning and doing offsite activities right, the permit takes care of itself. If, however, a unit thinks about the tour permit, it can be painful.

GaHillBilly, First, Leave No Trace is not something the Boy Scouts of America invented. It's a separate organization, which has about a 15 year history. Want to read it? Go here: http://www.lnt.org/aboutUs/history.php The simple fact is recreational land managers in the US have "bought into" the LNT ethic. In fact, the original concept of "leave no trace" belongs to the US Forest Service, US Department of Agriculture. The slogan dates to the 1960s. Think back to our training in NLE and either SM Fundamentals or Troop Committee Challenge. One of the Methods of Scouting is to instill ideals in our young people. LNT, as an outdoor ethic, is an ideal. In fact, there are implementations of LNT for the front country as well as the back country. So... if you cannot wrap your head around LNT as an ethic, drop back five yards... you mentioned the Outdoor Code ... use it as a working model instead. Does that make sense?

ScoutDad... Yes, I still use some TA-50... most particularly, the rain top. Why use non-DOD gear? Mil-spec stuff is designed to be rugged. Low crawl on your pistol belt? Been there, done that. Hump 75 lbs 15 miles a day on a march? Been there, done that. Recreational outdoor gear is designed to get the job done ... given appropriate care (vice some degree of planned abuse in the use). Outdoor gear conserves weight so you spend less time and energy getting up the mountain, and more time stopping to admire the view God gave you. As Beavah said, a lot of commercial camouflage gear is pretty good stuff, especially if you're a hunter who is going to go to one place and stay a while. Folks who backpack tend to believe in layering. I hope all this helps. As to uniforming, yes, I wear a complete and proper Boy Scout(er) uniform when I do Boy Scout stuff. When I do Venturing stuff, I choose to wear Cabela's grey trou/shorts. Better quality at lesser price. For Cubs, my brother's Packs in 1958-61 were all "above the waist" on uniforming, with blue jeans being the "de rigeur" pants. When he got to Boy Scouting, it was the Boy Scout uniform.

Sadly, I think I can predict what is going to happen. The 60 page folks will go to ground and bide their time til your husband steps down... and then it will be business as usual Sigh. That said, there are times for lots of backup information. EagleSon had two different sets of volunteer training for the hospitals his project served. He had to train his labor pool to understand how volunteers were accpeted in the 3 hospitals he served. Even at 4 slides to the page, that's a lot of information. As part of his learning, he got to understand how music therapy inter-related to recreation therapy inter-related to nursing and recovery of patients. While the "WHY" sentence was just that in his proposal, the backup information was a lot more than his Why. No two projects are alike, and some will need a lot of info, both for the Scout designing and leading the project and for the volunteers supporting him. Others will need less so. Again, congratulations to your son for getting on with it , and to your husband for trying to stamp out a culture of overkill!