John-in-KC

Considering the drivers in my part of the universe, I'd be ecstatic if I could have Scouts do their rides totally off MV roads. In most cases, we have no shoulders to speak of. In most cases, most drivers will not yield space to bicycle riders. imo, for the MB Counselor, safety must be paramount. Make judgment calls based on your understanding of local auto operators and traffic patterns.

And some districts say to heck with the UG, and sell a District patch. Of course, it helps that your District would be a 600 series Council all by itself if it was freestanding. Scout Execs tend to understand the cost of doing business is sometimes to turn a blind eye when big donor bucks are involved.

Scoutingtexas, I'm going to try and say this with short direct words: If you think your Scoutmaster has a true morals problem, such that he's violating BSA Youth Protection policy, call your Scout Executive. If you think your Scoutmaster has a true morals problem, but is not violating BSA Youth Protection policy, raise the flag, on the record, to your Committee Chair and your Chartered Partner's IH and COR. You cannot do anything about his WB program on an internet board such as this. The only people who can stop WB for your Scoutmaster are his Course Director and his Council Scout Executive. BTW, be prepared for the 2d and 3d order unintended consequences of any action you take. It's possible you'll be the one gone, not him. You're the ASM who's backstabbing your SM in public. I cannot make the comments any simpler.

This is a simple bifurcated choice. I said this in the other thread, it bears repeating here: As an ASM, one of your responsibilities is loyalty to your Scoutmaster. If the program is off course, if he will not respond to quiet cups of coffee discussions of the need for change, you may either: - Resign your ASM position and then raise #### as a committee member. - Decide to live with how he does business and support the man. There is a third option: If your SM finds you here, backstabbing him, you may find yourself gone from the Troop and the Chartered Partner. All the SM has to do is tell the CC "Person X is no longer one of my ASMs", call the DE with the same message, and ask the COR to order you off the property. Is this what you really want? Just keep backstabbing your SM. One of these days someone else in your area will read this, connect the dots, and pass the word to your SM. He's supposed to obey the Scout Law as an example to the youth. So are you, and that includes LOYALTY to him.

Not to defend the ratio, Let's also remember our mission isn't to get every youth who joins to Eagle, it's to inculcate 3 fundamental values in young American men, and at the older teen level, young women. I agree with all of you about training. At the same time, GW has a point, and we have to market what we do where it matters ... churches, VFWs, Legion Posts, schools... We also have to disregard the Pappy's of the world, who want their kids being young basic trainees. I think he's going to get a shock when a real Marine talks about Leaving No Trace, not because it's environmentally friendly, but because it keeps soldiers operating in small groups forward alive.

Gotta agree. Both sides have been rather thick on laying out the "HOSANNA, HUZZAH!" card, and Voila! Change. NOT Of course, the electorate who has been pumped up will never realize they've been pumped up the ### full of sunshine. An old Navy Captain I once knew had a one worder for expressing his level of disgust at this kind of thing: ###WIPE! in a long southern drawl

More and more stuff IS online, including requirements themselves. I've not looked at the usscouts resource links since BSA put Requirements #33215 online, but it used to have some good research tools for youth to use.

The other, and perhaps most vital difference is that in Cub Scouting, the Den is under active adult supervision, to include program design and execution. The Boy Scout Patrol, OTOH, is a miniature representative democracy, and the PL carries forward program ideas to the PLC, and program decisions back to the members. In a troop following the Methods of Boy Scouting, the youth have a major say in program design.

Welcome to the Forum. First, let's ask what your project is, then what is your Bill of Materials? ON THE ASSUMPTION your project involves some form of construction, have you thought of asking your Scoutmaster to help you identify Scouters who are also general or specialist contractors?

If there is one thing I've learned about Scouting in the last ten years, it's that all the parts have to fit together. That starts with the unit/Chartered Partner/Council relationship, and works its way through the various program methods supporting the aims. That they don't fit together, rather often, is one of the root causes of challenges we see here. The other challenge, which BW rides, is lack of training to the tasks at hand.

I think, jts, you need to read the following: Selecting Quality Leaders, BSA Pub 18-981 http://old.scouting.org/commissioners/resources/18-981.pdf You will note it says nothing about self-nomination for Scoutmaster. Beavah said it, and said it right.

Lots of good meat on the bones here! BTW, what is your training level in the adult side of Scouting? The last paragraph, as Lisa pointed out, gives many of us great pause here. I hope you have New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster Fundamentals, and Older Leadership for Scoutmasters under your belt, among other BSA adult courses. We don't have to LIKE each other as adults. We do have to share a common vision (what we want the future to look like) and common goals (how do we expect to implement that vision). We'll do what we can to help, but understand, we're a bunch of people on the internet who share some vague understanding about Scouting

Everything anarchist said, PLUS: This should be a project of the PLC, giving them a chance to have some major responsibility. Patrols should take tasks for themselves and tasks in support of the Troop as a whole. There are huge lessons for SM Minutes when this is all said and done, about the value of a dollar, about the value of maintaining gear, about... I'm not saying the adults should sit back and drink coffee. This kind of inventory, check, clean, repair and re-store project is an "all hands, youth and adult" evolution. It's going to be a full days work. Maybe the adults help by cooking the kids a fantastic Dutch Oven lunch, to show them what can be done?

Oh... My... Lord...

Oh, for the days of the bronze Bobcat pin! (I agree with Lisa, this'd get more responses in the Cub Forum)...

My take: If you fail to interact with others... If you fail to implement the course material in your own life... If you fail to understand the ethic of WB is servant leadership... If you faith to live the ethic... You may have not "failed" Wood Badge ... but you certainly wasted your money in taking the course. Looking to the history of this thread, I found the event emb described to be truly saddening. To be asked not to return implies an absolutely horrid group dynamic, where the only viable solution was removal.

For all: From posting history: scoutingtexas is the Assistant Scoutmaster who opened the thread on Visitor Forms. I thought you might want to know.

A good Scoutmaster embraces the 3 Aims of Scouting, for the sake of all the youth in a Troop. A good Scoutmaster then embraces the 8 Methods of Boy Scouting, to serve all the youth in a Troop. A good Scoutmaster follows the call of Tom Peters: Train and retrain constantly. New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster Specific, and Outdoor Leadership for Scouters are only the beginning. He or she then seeks out Wood Badge, faithfully attends Roundtable, getting to know other Scoutmasters, the District Committee, and the Commissioner Service. A good Scoutmaster is a mentor first to the Senior Patrol Leader, then to the Patrol Leaders Council, then to the Troop as a whole. Listening is a classic skill of the Scoutmaster, then being able to distill the problem, huge in a child's mind, to a simple (not necessarily easy) solution. 1 hour a week? More like an hour a week per boy, plus additional time for each member of the PLC. The Scoutmaster also recruits, ensures training for, and coordinates the work of the Assistant Scoutmasters. The Scoutmaster must earn and retain the loyalty of those assistants. You're already an Assistant Scoutmaster, from the earlier thread about visitor forms. If you are fully prepared, when the time comes for your Scoutmaster to step down, you might hear the call from your COR and Troop Committee.

To Thunderhead... Many Councils have as a volunteer an International Representative. One of his/her roles in life is to be a resource person about other National Scouting associations. Its position patch is purple, as in the color of the WOSM FDL. Try asking your DE or SE if there is such a volunteer in your Council.

Gunny, Absolutely agree. That's part of the reason the smackdown option was last, and that the warning ... be prepared to become the unit leader ... was part of it. Given Lisa's thread, I think there's a good reason for this Scout to slow down and enjoy the journey. He might even learn something about himself

... and Gunny, if there is a lack of training on the part of the SM, then your missive is indeed smack on! We aren't that far apart. ??? Have you seen something in Florida mom's posts which indicate the SM has not been to training??? I don't always read someones posting history as deeply as I should.

You're not the only cynic, Lisa. The Cub Scout motto (Do your best) is a fine one for us when we grown-ups implement the program. When we consistently allow happenings as you describe, the ability of Scouting to meet the Aims diminishes...quickly. All you and I can do is our very best at what we do

I held two PORs, more than once, when I was a youth member: I held Instructor and Scribe. I held SPL and Instructor. I held Den Chief and Patrol Leader. My thoughts are that your son should have asked for a SM conference jsut after he made Star, or asked about road-mapping his leadership posts at his 1C to Star SM conference. If he's been DC for two years, then he should have seen the speed bump of minimal summertime activity. OTOH, are you saying his supported Pack completely shuts down during the summer? The Packs I know send kids to Day Camp, to Family Resident Camp, to Webelos Camp. Even if he's not with "his" Den, there are plenty of opportunities to be serving the Pack as a whole. What about 4th of July parade? Does this Pack not strive to earn the BSA Summertime Pack Award? I see no problem with your son being BOTH an instructor and a Den Chief. Let me take you the the conversation I might have with him: Billy, how was your time as an Instructor. What did you do? Do you think you've learned all you can from the post? What about your time as a Den Chief. What have you done? Do you think you've learned all you can from the post? Do you think you have fulfilled the requirements of these Posts in serving the Troop? When Billy says NO (and if a SM doesn't know how to guide leading questions to discovery learning, that's another reason to take WB), then comes the important one: How do we together solve the challenge? How would you like to get it done? When should we get back together to see how you've done? Then I finish: Being true to yourself is the most important personal value you can have. A good man is one who can look himself in the mirror every day and respect the person looking back. I'm proud of the decisions you made, Billy. You're going to do just fine. If you need any help, call me. If it takes every Scout and every adult in this Troop for you to be a success, you'll have the resources you need... all you have to do is ask!

I will have to go and read a transcript of the endorsement.

Scoutmasters should never be too busy to have a SM conference. If they are, something is wrong. I agree fully with kraut-60 on this. The SM here is denying a SM conference for the purpose of going forward to an advancement. His grounds are most likely not supportable in ACP&P #33088 or Requirements #33215. That said, one of the things a SM has to do is evaluate the quality of the service in tenure of the POR. There are ways to ask tough, open-ended questions which allow the Scout to evaluate and perhaps re-consider if he's ready for advancement. But we're not there. We're at a conference denial. Option 1 is do nothing and continue to rack up quality service in tenure. That's not a bad option, truth be told. The only rank EagleSon did boom-boom was 1C to Star. He had all the MBs, he needed tenure and spirit only. Star to life he had to do some things , many at Scout Camp. Option 2 is to ask your boy to have a non-advancement BOR with the Committee. Have him ask why the SM doesn't follow Requirements #33215. See what happens. Option 3 is for you to have a quiet talk with the CC about Requirements. Is the understanding challenge restricted to the SM, or is it happen through the Troop. Option 4 is to bypass the unit and go straight to the District Advancement Chair. CAUTION: You will almost certainly cause a stir and an upheaval in the unit. Your son, and you, may well become unwelcome in the unit. You may be invited to become the Scoutmaster after the current one resigns ... because you undercut him. Tread very carefully in deciding to move to this level, without having worked through options 2 and 3. For most young people, Option 1 really is pretty good. I know of few youth who could not learn more from an early volunteer job they have! Let us know how this turns out.