John-in-KC

Beavah, There's one other reason HS activities trump Scouting: They have the weight of governmental regulatory process behind them. I went and looked at the guidelines in my school district. Public performance is a specified requirement; it inter-relates to a state department of education standard. That the performance can be outside the established school hours is immaterial to the requirement. That happened to EagleSon last year: He took Debate/Forensics 1. Included in the coursework were requirements to participate in at least one regional tournament outside his building, and support one regional tournament held inside his building. How does the Scoutmaster and the parent deal with something which is in a Board-of-Education approved policy document (short of voting for other folk at the next election cycle)?? When you look at the program materials furnished by the National Council, BSA is competing with, and losing, the battle of the educational bureaucrats. How do you reconcile A Scout is Obedient in honoring law and regulation of the Government to the demand of a Scoutmaster "Be there or else?"

Remember, per the G2SS, a Scout may not drive himself to/from a unit campout: http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss12.aspx 4. The driver must be currently licensed and at least 18 years of age. Youth member exception: When traveling to and from an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity or any Venturing event under the leadership of an adult (at least 21 years of age) tour leader, a youth member at least 16 years of age may be a driver, subject to the following conditions: a. Six months' driving experience as a licensed driver (time on a learner's permit or equivalent is not to be counted) b. No record of accidents or moving violations c. Parental permission granted to the leader, driver, and riders As always, boldface in the G2SS denotes policy. Note the above does not say UNIT, DISTRICT, or COUNCIL. Thus, the unit, working with the Scouts' parents/guardians, must plan a Scouts' transportation. I like what Gunny said: Most units I know require the Scout and his family to be the proactive folks in late arrivals to or early departures from a campout for other activities. Now, here's the other side of the coin: Units have to provide the environment so a Scout can extract to a curricular in nature activity and be ready to go when he hits the school. A SPL I knew arrived late to a HS marching band Saturday parade performance. He forfeited a full letter grade because he smelled of campfire, was late, and he was out of uniform when he arrived. He was late because the SM insisted he eat breakfast with the unit. We talk a lot about character development and citizenship development (AIMS). We talk about the Uniform Method... why shouldn't we support someone elses' uniform requirements?

First, I firmly believe a Scoutmaster should have a SM Conference with every Scout seeking a POR. You should have standards and expectations, as well as a willingness to train or to provide training. Now, the next question is what form of activity we're talking about? If we're talking a competing extra-curricular activity, such as Pop Warner, American Legion baseball, AAU/TAC gymnastics, university sponsored HS symphony orchestra ... whatever: The Scout concerned has to learn to make choices and hard calls: If you are not helping him learn to make those choice, shame on you, Mr Scoutmaster. Being a pedant about attendance at Scouts will turn his tough call into an easy one: You may well lose the boy. Are you prepared for that second order effect consequence? Now that we've talked about other extra-curriculars, let's talk about classes at the high school. Where does band fit into a young person's life? Well, first, it's a fine art, and fine arts credits are usually mandatory to get out of high school. As others have mentioned, marching band can be counted by some schools as physical education. Performances (games and concerts) are part of the grade plan. At EagleSon's HS, each peformance was 10% of his grade ... that means a full letter grade. Call time on Friday night was typically 5PM for a 7PM kickoff ... and that's hugely better than it will be at the college level! Here's the kicker: There is real money tied to marching band at the university level. EagleSon is now a freshman at a Big 12 University. Here's the cash value that marching band brought to him this past semester: - Travel/pep band polos: $20 - Meals on activity days (game, special concert, etc): $90 - Tuition scholarship for Music 9999 (marching band): $250 (yes, the University picked up the tab for the 1 credit hour course that Marching band is) - Student Season ticket to football games: $200 - Supplies (flip folder, gloves): $10 - Off-campus travel to games: $90 - BOWL GAME PACKAGE (transporation, hotel, meals): $500 - RETENTION SCHOLARSHIP: $400 (he was invited back for the 09-10 School Year) Total cash value to EagleSon: $1560, of which $650 was SCHOLARSHIP MONEY. In a public school, that's between 2 and 3 credit hours. Scouting gave him the discipline and the basic physical fitness. Scouting, because he's a camp staffer, and because our Council has a substantial camp staff scholarship endowment, brought him $500 in scholarships this year. How many Councils have real money tied off to post K-12 education and training, sufficient that every camp staff member who applies gets something? Not many. I'm glad we live on the west side of Missouri! A Scout is Thrifty. When a Scout has an opportunity to help earn his education, he should go for it. If that means he has to do something else over attend a unit meeting, we Scouters have the obligation to help the Scout learn to make hard choices. My thoughts.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Kathy, Many of us here have posted on OA before. The thread below, especially the first page, is great for parents... http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=207950

I refer my youth brothers (who are the voters in our Order) in Cheerful Service to the following: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=86625&p=3#id_167269 I re-emphasize the point of going through channels and asking the National OA Committee for this. Be careful of what you ask for (a decision)... you just might get one, and it may not be the one you like. Second-order consequences can bite.

IF you've been asked to put the training on hold, THEN someone needs to provide you that sylabbus. You should not have to run all around Adam's barn to get materials.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Have you asked your Scout shop to look it up online with Supply Corporation?

Don't think of Eagle as a job interview. Think of it as the home stretch of "employee of the year" for a moderately large business. Yes, in my company, for employee of the year, there are about 10 letters of reference required, and yes, the employee has to make sure they're in play. As I've said before, I have only so much energy. I choose the issues worthy of battle. This is not one of them.

One sidebar from the main conversation: The COR represents the Unit to the Chartered Partner, and the Chartered Partner to the unit. If you look at the BSA program materials, the Chartered Partner has several roles including leader support and facility support. If mom the COR is no longer effective, then it may be time for you and the CC to have a friendly cup of coffee with the IH. Good hunting on her son.

Belayer has it right. ACA takes care of programs which have 1 or 2 sites. BSA literally has hundreds of sites and programs around the country. If you've not seen the National Camp Standards book, it's thick, and it's comprehensive. People, training, facilities, foodservice management... I don't know about your Council, but the Rangers of my Reservations are deadly serious about best practices for physical plant operations.

Sounds like time for some friendly visits over a cup of coffee: Visit with your COR first. Make sure you are on the page she expects. The Chartered Partner is the licensee of Scouting from the local council. If you're ok with Mom (now Grandma) then visit with the Dad. You can ask that if he's not happy with something the Pack or a Den does, to visit with you directly (I assume you are CM or CC). Be prepared with an adult leader app and a slot where he can help BTW

When I was a Cub, it was a MOM thing. Of course, I was a Bobcat/Wolf in 1968. From what I see at Den Meetings I attend as a UC or Bear Resident Camp, it's 50-50.

The Theodore Naish Scout Reservation Grace tune is Old Hundredth (some may call it the Doxology) Be Present at our table, Lord Be here and everywhere adored These mercies bless and grant that we May Feast in Paradise with Thee. Amen

Any Troop which relies on "its own feeder Pack" is borrowing trouble. The best Troops send forth ASMs to Packs... to see what Pack needs for support are. The best Troops deploy Den Chiefs to Packs ... because a quality Den Chief is the single best recruiting aid in Boy Scouting. The best Troops do ask for some support from Packs ... can you put out the Scouting For Food Bags? Good troops with good program may not get all the Cubs moving up; sometimes the Adult Method Troop gets the undivided attention of Mr and Mrs Smith. Even so, good troops with good program get a sustaining share of Cubs moving up. That's what I've seen

One other option is to get out the big guns at the right moment, and have your COR contact the District Chairman and the Council Executive Board: "Mr and Mrs X are to have no contact with members of units my organization sponsors. This includes activities away from our host facility." Bans on Scouters by Chartered Partners around my neck of the woods get the immediate and undivided attention of Council Scout Executives. Kind? No. Drastic? Yes. Gets results? Around here, yeppers.

Actually, I'd leave the smellables off the list: My Council Reservations both have critters such as raccoons and skunks; they like!!! smellables. True Story, except for the name: Bobby was 13 and in his 3d camping season. He comes from a family who loves the outdoors. One night after dinner, Bobby didn't wash the peanut butter from his cracker barrel snack from his face. About 2AM, Bobby had a friend nuzzle him on his bed. The friend was none other than Ricky Raccoon, licking off the remains of the peanut butter. Bobby, being Bobby, was delighted and gave Ricky a hug. A few years later, a photo, taken by the tentmate, mysteriously found its way into Bobby's Eagle Court of Honor slideshow. LEAVE THE SMELLABLES OFF THE SALE LIST

Get a copy of Requirements #33215, and Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088. Highlight the parts discussing Venturers and Boy Scouting ranks. Ask them over a friendly cup of coffee if the issue is dealt with. If not, ask for a business meeting with the Council Advancement Chairman.

I thought Merlyn was the personification of political correctness. Nope. PETA. Hands down, 8 miles high.

First, PTC Tent City is a tremendous place You'll have a great time. DO bring camp chairs for both of you DO bring sleeping gear that'll take you into the 40s, even in late July/early August DO bring good shoes and hiking socks for him; some of the off-site stuff they do means they should have proper gear. DO buy a couple Philmont Nalgene bottles on site; great souvenirs. DO buy him at least one pair of Philmont shorts on site, even if he'll outgrow them. DO go prepared to learn and assimilate knowledge; the time you spend in class is more than worth it. I don't know where you live, but if you're anywhere near the historic Santa Fe railway from Chicago to LA, do consier taking Amtrak to Raton vice the fly or the drive. Oh... DO take a good camera, and... PTC is one tremendous "dude ranch" experience that is incredibly cheap compared to commercial operations: DO consider taking your bride (should you have one)!

I staff at a Bear Resident Family Overnight Camp operated by our Council. ICE CREAM SELLS COLD DRINKS SELL T-shirts sell Walking sticks sell Necklaces with miniature arrows on them sell. Rabbitskins sell You name it, if it's in the trading post at Scout Camp, it sells.

Lisa, Best answer in this case is for you to have a friendly cup of coffee with your own Professional Staff. Whether/if your Council has supplemental A&I insurance, and how it acts when the family has no insurance, is way beyond what any of us can answer... I suspect this'll also apply to your District Membership Chair role, since there are certainly other kids in your District with the same challenge.

One note: My Council Scout Reservations will not honor a camp MB partial more than 1 camping season downline. EXAMPLE: Scout takes Wilderness Survival MB at Scout Camp A, gets a partial in year X. He re-attends in year X+1, but doesn't do anything about completing the MB He re-attends in year X+2, and tries to present his partial: He'll be turned down. Council Advancement Committee is OK with this, BTW.

Xtreme, I don't know who you are; I don't know what you do for your unit and your Council. I do know several young women, in fact some under 18. They are members in EagleSons' Venturing Crew. Many of them, during the summer, serve on staff at one of our Scout Reservations. They bust their butts for not a lot of money a week. In session, they are on the go from 7AM day 1 until 6PM day 2, then have a night to themselves, and repeat (this is a Council operated/staffed Family Camping Experience as defined by G2SS and National Camp Standards). They do a lot more for the ethic of Cheerful Service than 75% of the young men I see who take the Ordeal, maybe the Brotherhood, and then disappear. Do they (and perhaps you) show the ethic we want in the Arrow? YES. Is National Commitee on the Order of the Arrow, the Professionals in Irving, the Advisers (I'm told a law unto themselves), and the youth leadership going to do something about it? I wouldn't bet on it in your lifetime. Should they? YES. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but that's reality as I see it.

Page 29, but it's not a formality: "Boards of review conducted between three and six months after the candidate's 18th birthday must be pre-approved by the local council. A statement by an adult explaining the reason for the dealy must be attached to the Eagle Scout Rank Application when it is submitted to the Eagle Scout Service."

I have to agree ... 4 1/2 hours is OVER THE TOP.