Gonzo1

You know what's fuzzy? After being told a gajillion times that atheists cannot join the BSA, Merlyn still wants to try. Kinda like a democrat, what you can't have at the ballot box, ya try to achieve through the courts. Atheists can't join the BSA. It's time to stop trying. Edited part: Acco, an atheist by definition cannot do his duty to God, he doesn't believe in Gad in the first place. The BSA is in fact non-sectarian. I for one do not want to send my son out into the woods camping (or on any other scout activity) with a known or avowed homosexual. (This message has been edited by Gonzo1)

BadenP, I don't think we need a poll, first of all, it would be unscientific, secondly, whatever the outcome, peoplw would say "see, the poll said _____, so we must do _____" What special treatment does the LDS troops get? I'm not aware of any.

Gern, I disagree, I think a scout is "tested" along the way, or at least has the opportunity to be tested at each SMC and BOR. If not tested then, how about "Johnny, would you lead us in grace?" and if he says "No, I don't believe in God" then he fails the test, same with the Pledge, Oath and Law. Scouts and adults agree to live by the Oath and Law and the precepts of DRP. How do you "old timer" civic group members feel about adding women to your groups like Rotary or Jaycees? My guess is, about the same as we feel about atheists in BSA.

Gern, I couldn't disagree more. If the DRP is dropped, I think many churches would drop their charters, especially LDS. You claim they could exclude atheists, but I would wager that the ACLU would be suing left and right. When we join scouting, we agree to live by the Scout Oath and Scout Law and agree to the precepts of the DRP. If the BSA says that a member cannot grow into the best possible citizen without first doing his obligation to God, why would someone want to join a group (BSA) with a value system vastly different than his own? Oh, I see it now, it's the knot tying and camping. If you (or a potential member) can't abide by the membership requirements, don't join. Either find another group like Spiral Scouts or hey, go start your own. It's a free country, you don't have to join the BSA. You could go camping with Green Peace, REI hosts camping and backpacking trip, maybe the YMCA, but then again there's the "C" part in YMCA. You know, I don't go beating anyone over the head about my religion, I hope that folks go to some knd of church or other place of worship sometime. IMO, there is no finer organization for young men and boys than the Boy Scouts of America. I'm sure there are other fine organizations out there and if you don't like the BSA, go elsewhere.

On the membership application is an excerpt of the Declaration of Religious Principles (DRP) which says in part: The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God...... Members who read and sign the application agree to live by the precepts of the DRP or they can't become members.

I believe in a free market, I also must have a license to practice chiropractic. So must a barber, embalmer, real estate agent, insurance agent, autioneer and so on. I can see the case for a license, if it will lead to a better and correctly informed public. I don't think it's right to just make stuff up and call it fact.

I think most of has to do with the mindset of midwesterners compared to those in New Orleans. You figure it out.

Sorry, my son wn't let me share his secrets. He's been top seller in the pack and troop for many years and definitely has a system in place.

I think it was handled well and I probably wold have done the same. BUT, I would keep asking him what happened since his last BOR, why was he so lazy?

Whenever I conduct training, I try to use 8th grade as a baseline. However, If I can determine that higher or lower, I change accordingly. Honestly, I don't see much point in going much beyond high school level anyway. If I use what I think might be an unfamiliar term, I define it first and then continue to use it.

Ed, I believe you exist, I also believe that gravity exists, can't see it either. Rather than hijack and go into existentialism, the BSA can and does discriminate, just like many groups. I wonder, How many whites are members of the Congressional Black Caucus? Racial discrimination at the halls of government, Congress. Doesn't seem fair, does it? How many boys are members of Girls Scouts?

Yes Merlyn, I understand the difference. That's why you should recognize that your rights are NOT being violated. BSA no longer charters BSA units. I don't see how public schools discriminate AGAINST atheists, public schools nowadays demand that God is to be removed, that commencement ceremonies must not contain reference to God and so on. I suppose the best thing to do is to find a different school, or better yet, start your own. I know some people who were dissatisfied with the local public schools and started their own PRIVATE schools. Sure enough, there Christian schools, but they're private. You should be happy, BSA DOESN'T charter units anymore. Now I'm done.

I'm not gullible, my rights aren't affected, neither are yours. Go ahead, ask your local school if your fictional (or actual) atheist group can meet there. God exists, period. I gotta say this about you Merlyn, you have a strong conviction for what you believe in (or actually what you don't believe in) and I admire your dedication. I don't agree with it, but I admire it. Have a nice day.

I usually add flint and steel. Note pad and pencil too. Horizon, isn't a disposable water bottle also refillable? Flimsy maybe, but refillable.(This message has been edited by Gonzo1)

Merlyn, sometimes, you make this too easy and too fun. There exists proof today that the ark was actually found on Mt Ararat and other things. It is my understanding that there have been barnacle formations at the bottom of the Red Sea - in the form of chariots. True enough, not actual proof that God exists. It's kinda like this. I (we) believe in God, you don't. We have a club (BSA) with certain membership rules. If you can't conform, you can't become a member. There are no secrets, or special passwords, the "executive washroom" is really an outhouse, but there is a special handshake. If you had an atheists group, you probably wouldn't appreciate me (or any of us) to barge in and force you to accept us. To my knowledge, the BSA doesn't charter anymore scout units to government related entities. However, scout units can meet there. It seems the main difference is whose name is on the charter. Big Whoop! That's the thing about "faith". We believe in something we can't see, hear or fully understand, but yet, we still believe. I'll agree that gods are no different than the tooth fairy, but God is quite different altogether. You can't believe we believe, I can't believe you don't. I heard a rumor that your "leader" Madaline Murray O'Hare actually got religion in the end. There's always room for one more, come join us. I'm glad BSA doesn't take money from the government, I wish we wouldn't take money from United Way, but that's another story. I have to comment on your horrible tactic of dissecting someone's comment, that put's us on the defensive. Regarding your last comment, if my son's teacher were leading a club and my son couldn't become a member because of my son's religious views, I could tell my son he doesn't qualify and why. I could also use your tactic, hire the ACLU and sue the breeches off the school, the teacher and the parent organization of the club. It would be eaiser to do the former, but I would probably get some joy that I could stick it the atheists via the ACLU like they stick it to us.

Merlyn, I'm not suggesting that you are a liar or would lie, but c'mon, you gotta believe in SOMETHING greater than ourselves. Some Power, Presence, Omnipotense, Light, God, Diety or even a Tree. If atheists generally believe there was a "big bang", who created it? Could it be the Creator? I don't really want to discuss theology or atheology, but you gotta admit it, something Greater than ourselves created all of us. If iI were at my son's school and a sign advertising an atheists meeting tonight, I would not be offended. May the Master of of all scouts be with you, Merlyn. Communications ban back ON.

OGE, There's no need to remove Merlyn, I just don't understand why he keeps coming back for more. Merlyn, why do you come back? Apparently, you must want to deparately join the BSA. Why not admit to a higher power and join. You might like it. Camping, fresh air, knot tying, etc. I recently visited my dad in central Florida. He lives in one of those senior citizens only towns. A single person can live there if over 55, but one member of a couple can live there if over 30 and the other member is over 55. I'm 46. I won't win by trying to change the rules to allow me and my family to live there. It's against the rules. I suppose the SCLU could challenge it, but why bother, it's a place for older folks to live, it's the way they want it, or else THEY wouldn't have gone there. If the BSA did accept federal funds, there would be so many strings attached, it wouldn't be worth it. I volunteer at a local soup kitchen from time to time. No government money of any kind for anything is used. Only personal donations and church groups donate food and services. This allows the soup kitchen to do what they want, deliver a church message and feed, clothe and temporarily house the homeless.

Merlyn, Self imposed communications ban is lifted - TEMPORARILY The judicial branch changes laws althe the time. Try when Louisiana voters, by referendum, approve of lethal injection, the state suprem court overturned the law allowing child rapists to be free from voter approved execution citing that lethal injection is "cruel and unusual". Which is more cruel and unusual? lethal injection where the creepy child molester is put to sleep or raping innocent children and allowing the dirt bag to sponge off the tax payers for 15 or 20 years? I'll agree that tax payer should not generally be spent for "only the boy scouts", but allowing the boy scouts to use a building already built (let's include lights and water). I think it's appropriate use to use Fort A.P. Hill an whatever soldiers can use the experience for training. That's right, soldiers actually train (become better, more efficient soldiers for the tax payers) by hosting the jamboree. I'll also agree that atheists have rights, just like me, and the other posters here. I do not believe atheists get MORE rights. I would bet that if your atheists group wanted to use the school, or library or other assembly area, you would be allowed. Atheists pay taxes. Try it some time, go to the school or call them and ask if your local atheist group can meet on Tuesday night at 7:00 pm for an hour or so, see what would happen?

Well, a year or more later and this one comes back to life. My son is still in the troop, but due to life changing events, I'm not with the troop anymore. I was an ASM and the UC, the area ADC is also the COR. I moved away for a job and the family stayed back. The new job didn't work out, I returned to town, but only temorarily, as I will leave again for a new job in about 3 weeks. When I left, the ADC assigned another UC who brought his son to the troop, the son became frustrated and left, I don't know who is UC now, but of course, the ADC knows. My son sees the troop as adult led with some boy led parts, but maily adult led. He's frustrated with meetings being used mainly to plan the next campout menu and play ball outside. Then more menu planning next week only to have an adult change it or tell everyone to bring their own food and "cook" individually. The blue card thing is mainly straightened out, the troop uses them and uses a MBC list that someone has. There is one mom who is pushing her son to get an Eagle and get out. She works at a bank and is MBC for several Eagle required MB's and tries to hold classes so her son can hurry up and get done. I suggested that the sommittee get trained, back they pushed back and said they were. I asked them why they don't apply what they learned and they thought I was nuts. Here's a good one: The boys elect APL's and ASPL. Then, after 6 months, the APL's and ASPL move up to PL's and SPL. It's a little odd. They still have dads cooking for scouts from time to time. It's still frustrating. In many ways, it's still like a webelos III den, but larger. My son went to summer camp with another trop because of a schedule conflict, he knew many of the boys there and has decided to transfer to that troop. They are truly boy led, boy run with a quality program. I know the SM, and many ASM's and many committee members. I now firmly believe the UC should not have his son in a tropp he serves. He / him used for ecomony in communication. I know many female UC's and other scouter roles.

Doesn't matter, _____ vs. _______ still cost that council $40,000 to defend itself in a case that had no merit. Way to go ACLU! The ACLU - a big waste of time and mney.

Ditto to just about everything already said, it's fun! I enjoy the outdoors, the challenge, the adult asociation and I like watching my son's experience too (without hovering).

erickelly65, I don't think it's so ridiculous. Like the uniform in the first, it removes distinction by social status or class. PLUS, who wants to replace a name brand shirt when Johnny messes it up at camp. With the red clay "soil" here in the South, it is almost impossible to remove the dirt stains from clothing. I don't like the image set forth by someone wearing a Dale Earnheart jr shirt advertising Budweiser. How about Mark Martin and Viagra? Just wear a plain shirt or scout oriented shirt. I've gone to the scout shop and bought previous year's camp shirt on sale, usually $4 or $5 each.

Way to go! I frequently get choked up read True Stories of Scouts in Action.

How can I look up the ignored user scorecard?

I think a "scout t-shirt" is one that is scout related, like a shirt from the scout shop or a scout event like a camp-o-ree or Webelos Woods or JLT or Woodbadge or something like that. My son is going to camp with a different troop this year due to a schedule conflict with his busy summer schedule. He knows many of the boys in the troop. THEIR policy is that scouts do not wear t-shirts advertising tobacco, drugs or alcohol and encourages scouts to wear scout oriented shirts when not in "class A"