fred8033

Well said.

Agreed. I agree the wrong focus is now on equity of outcome because there is no way to judge equity at the start. If a person gets X extra every year for 12 years of primary school and then 4 years of college and then the rest of their career, is that equitable? ... You can never answer what is equitable because you never know how much was already given and if it will be enough to make a difference.

you can do that !!!!! WHAT !!!! ... Dang ... Wish I knew that years ago. ... When I lived in CA, I rented but always felt sorry for those who just moved into the city. AND, I felt jealous of a few co-workers who slowly over years acquired their house from their parents without a registered sale. It is amazing how tax assessment is used against people. ... Locally (outside CA), I know several people who have that "knack" and have had their home assessments knocked far down below the real market value. ... Same several people that says we don't pay give schools enough money. But their home is taxed at 2/3rds of it's market value where as most of us are taxed right at 99% of what we can sell the house for. ... Really good at managing their money by saying others should pay more.

Mixing multiple topics ... Interesting ... I'm not a DEI fan either. The last training I saw was drastically watered down, but it is very much about political indoctrination. The good in the badge was already everywhere in scouting. The rest crosses the line into politics. Always thought scouting explicitly taught good citizenship and specifically inclusiveness. All are welcome. ... The issue was scouting had trouble getting people to show-up when invited. Specifically, scouting always had trouble recruiting from poorer families or those who's heritage did not include scouting. The good of the Citizenship in Society badge is that ... I'm hoping ... is that it will cause the five Citizenship merit badges to be re-thought. ... I count Family Life as Citizenship in the Family. ... I had an outstanding high school education. Public school but many of my textbooks were used by the state university for their courses. ... If I was in 10th or 11th grade looking at the Citizenship badges, I'd just have mostly contempt and wonder why I was sitting thru them. Hugely absolutely screamingly agree.

Abuse is wrong. Your situation is painful. BSA could have kept blocking the volunteer with a permanent block. His registration was known registered SM, then blocked. If the SM did not get incorrect records corrected within ... say 5 years ... it should have been permanent without possibility of removal. TODAY ... perhaps BSA should have a different role. Leave the good or bad volunteer decision to the background check. ... If the background check comes back clean, they can be registered. ... I'm not saying it would work. Just a thought. My reason is that I fear future legal liabilities for organizations that try to decide if a volunteer is safe. ... OR ... BSA should stop using the "registration" process. It infers BSA is taking responsibility for the volunteer. :Perhaps a different unit structure (as we keep infering) is needed.

Agreed. Without the dragging of those out into the light of day, I doubt the momentum that resulted in BSA's bankruptcy would have happened. Abuse is wrong. Period. I'm not defending the abuse at all. ... The issue is that lawyers exists to protect the client. ... IMHO, in this case, the legal advice failed miserably. I believe that the scouting abuse is similar in size and scope that we had seen in other organizations. That's my opinion. Others judge it differently. ... One trigger for the current situation is that the IVF files provided the perfect storm to feed a frenzy. The only why I can understand keeping 10, 20, 30, 40, 50+ year old records is that leadership felt morally driven to keep those records to keep those abusers out and wrong to purge records. ... The intention was right, but legal decision left BSA vulnerable to document fishing. I just looked at my state's criminal data retention policy. Police records (investigation, arrest, etc) can be purged after SOL expires or 30 year; whichever comes first. At the time of most of these crimes, the SOL window was less than 10 years. ... So, even if we wanted to see whether the police were involved and what actions they took in these cases, we could not find those records. ... COs never kept detailed records like this long term. ... BSA by creating that depth of record exposed itself to huge risk.

Well written. I fully agree. It's just not possible. Hindsight and changes in judgement, values and expectations causes past records to be more damaging than valuable. Also, isn't that the whole thing that opened BSA's legal nightmare? BSA kept incident records from 50+ years ago. ... It's legal negligence that BSA did not have these documents subject to a data retention policy. Yes, handle the incidents. Follow the law that exists at that time. Make the best decisions and take the right actions. Then, when done, the records should have been subject to a standard data retention policy. ... Every major corporation I know learned that lesson in the 1990s. ... Given how the courts enable using your own records against you, why would anyone keep such records from 30, 40, 50+ years ago? So then the question is NOW ... should organizations try to record their decisions? Document what happened to protect themselves in the future? IMHO, no. Future judgements use different litmus tests and different interpretations. ... Slight, small mistakes or change-of-perception can infer huge liability. ... In many ways, it's better to purge all the records. It reminds me of the older scouts in our troop. They do not put post their personal life ... aka dating ... in Facebook. Period. They used SnapChat or Instragram. They want the pictures and comments gone. They don't want their next girl-friend to surf their past. It's a teenage data retention policy.

I hate finding typos in what I write. Replace "not" with "now". ... And, I really wish I could come back 12 hours later to remove half the words.

Makes sense. Dioceses are independent businesses with their own lawyers AND their own state oversight requirements. For example, my diocese has legal reporting requirements to the state AG as part of a settlement. Other dioceses don't necessarily have those expectations. BSA needs to drop the term "charter". Like most churches, Catholic dioceses "conceptually" strongly support BSA and scouting. The issue is the contractual and legal obligations. Long gone is the 1950s honorary view of a charter. Courts are now enforcing it as a legal document with millions of dollars of liability. ... Twenty years of pain for most Catholic dioceses have left extra oversight requirements. Twenty years of pain have emphasized legal obligations and risks. ... Extra oversight. Extra training. Church run background checks. It's expensive in dollars, staff and time. ... Churches can't afford to "charter". Churches are willing to do what they've always done. Provide space. Store stuff. ... The problem is asking them to take legal responsibility and being financially liable. BSA should push facility use agreements over charter org agreements. ... Scouting needs to match the agreement with reality. These are legal documents. Even if not enforced in a court of law. Morally, the words should match what you do. If you sign a document saying you will do something, you have a moral obligation to do what you said you would do. ... Currently, BSA asks COs to sign detailed agreements but then minimizes CO dependencies as BSA knows COs are not fulfilling their written obligations. .... Far beyond BSA checking if the CO is doing as written. Rather, it's setup to handle the problem that most COs just don't actively fulfill the charter.

Agree. Neither pack or troop scouts use their handbooks much anymore. Period. Phones and Google changed the world. I'd like cubs to have them, but at $200 per year for 8 cubs (den size), it's just too much. Even for the older scouts ... even Eagle scouts barely spent much time in the handbook beyond the requirement page checklists. A very few do. Most do not. ... By the way ... It's beyond awkward to say cub scout versus scout. It's wrong. Cub scouts is a sub-type of scout. Years ago, it was also awkward / wrong to use boy scout versus cub scout as cubs are part of BSA (Boy Scouts of America). ... I've now begun to use pack scouts versus troop scouts. I know it does not match official "branding" or what we are taught, but I feel more accurate and concise saying it. ... and I don't feel like I'm always tripping and needing to explain which group I really mean.

My experience is you have to start having the events / activities for people to become interested. Find at least one thing interesting ... example we're going to hike to the highest point in the state ... explore a cave ... go down a mountain biking trail ... ... ... scouts will hear interesting things and then sign up. few will pre-emptively say they are interested until they start recognizing the cool adventures.

I'm not there, but it sounds like the exactly right answer. ... Maybe ... post-covid ... when scouting recovers from all the damage, the demand for a 2nd troop will grow. Let the next passionate dedicated scouting volunteer take up that flag and spin off another troop ... when the time is right. Like suggested in another thread. Are the scouts having fun? Making friends? Being active? The troop number doesn't matter. We only get one life. Might as well enjoy it.

Wow. I so so miss papers written like this.

Love your last post. Your scout having fun is probably the most important. At this point, be concerned mostly with is your son making friends and being involved. If so, that's a win. Not everything has to be advancement oriented. That's fine. My foremost thought is ... 40 years from now ... will your scout look back fondly and remember the fun and activities? The learning we really want ... character ... skills ... being outside / moving ... will naturally come by being active and working with other youth. The checkbox advancement learning will happen. No need to force it immediately. If you stay at the meetings, start friendly conversation with parents that have been there several years. Get to know them. See what they say about the program. Enjoy this first year as your scout starts. Relax. Watch. Over the coming years, see if there is anywhere you can step up and help the troop Avoid injecting yourself too much. It's his journey. It's his experience. ... Friendly warning ... Parents injecting themselves too much tends to damage the experience. If you see something wrong, speak up. If you have a good idea, find a way to suggest it. Make friends with the leaders. When you are ready, become a unit leader ... It's just that a repeated pattern in scouting is that youth experiences can easily get damaged if the adults and parents inject themselves too much. ... it's a fine line. a dance between a gentle nudge and a damaging choice.

My sympathies. It has been a hard several years. COVID. Infomercial legal process. Continued slander against scouting. It's been emotionally really hard. Is there another that would be willing to setup as SM? But your choice might be best. Scouts needs a critical mass to keep the excitement in the program. If this helps your scouts continue and have good experiences, it could be the right choice.

@swilliams ... well said ... I'm sure it's a common practice and well reasoned. Different habits might reflect ToopMaster versus ScoutBook. ... You post into TroopMaster regularly but update BSA after COH. We posted into ScoutBook regularly and scout's official record was current; no upload.

!!!! WHAT !!!!! .... Different topic. ... Take the exclamation marks with a sense of humor. We always got the rank recognized by BSA in their records before the COH. Heck, it was part of purchasing the ranks and MBs. We either needed the paper invoice or the ScoutBook pick-list.

@InquisitiveScouter ... Good question. ... sounds like a transition coordination issue now ... a software issue ... Legalistically, it's not an Eagle required until July 1, 2022. So, do you apply the sentence to a current scout's advancement for something that is not yet required? IMHO ... in all situations like this ... favor the scout ... let the scout know the issue ... find a way to recognize the scout for advancing. the scout earned it. One solution ... post the scout's advancement directly into ScoutBook / ScoutNet. Bypass TroopMaster during this transition window.

The original question is too broad and circling around a root problem. Key statement. Well said. Agree. ... I wish we'd de-emphasize the aims and structures. Focus more on the game and developing active scouts. Hike. Camp. Explore. A variety of activities every month including a weekend overnight. New experiences regularly. Past favorites repeated. Higher experiences periodically. ... The rest will happen..

It's not absolutist bad with documentation. BSA does a lot pretty well. The problem comes in with a large repository of documents. Written over decades. Emphasis and concepts evolve. Editors and authors come and go. I'm betting often editors and authors don't even know the words are different in different documents. IMHO, BSA should adopt a system similar to the 2011 BSA GTA re-write for all the documentation. Whether you agree with GTA or not, I really really am impressed with the process / system behind the GTA re-write and what's happened for now 10+ years. Scheduled published corrections / upgrades Broader set of authors to enable collaborative improvements Emphasis with on-line publication to enable more frequent upgrades Feedback process ... (contacts provided to submit issues) Dated change set list ... (example at start of GTA) Communication channel discussing changes (example ... BSA Advancement news) Systematic good documentation is about putting a system in place to continually improve and resolve confusion.

Our cubs proudly wore their cub uniform when ringing the salvation army bell. ... As a parent, it was a lesson. Teaching our kids to get out in front of people. Saying hello. Saying thank you. Feeling comfortable talking with people. ... Our pack thought it was a good lesson and a good example. From the linked PDF on fundraising rules ... "For example: Boy Scouts/Cub Scouts and leaders should not identify themselves as Boy Scouts/Cub Scouts or as a troop/pack participate in The Salvation Army’s Christmas Bell Ringing program. This would be raising money for another organization."

Well ... I learn something every day. Our pack violated this rule every year. "For example: Boy Scouts/Cub Scouts and leaders should not identify themselves as Boy Scouts/Cub Scouts or as a troop/pack participate in The Salvation Army’s Christmas Bell Ringing program. This would be raising money for another organization. At no time are units permitted to solicit contributions for unit programs. " Also, BSA writing drives me crazy at times. Intention versus explicit words. ... "At no time are units permitted to solicit contributions for unit programs."? Huh? Really? Or was this really to read for other organizations? Or is this speaking of two different intentions. The first that units can't fundraise for other organizations. Second, units can't ask for donations for their own. Instead, units should earn money; not outright gifts? What is BSA really trying to say?

Once an official uniform always an official uniform.

I think that's a fine idea. I'm sad you would have to do that, but it seems reasonable. The desire itself to serve in OA when your troop does not support it is a sign of a good scout. IMHO, your local chapter should be the one to help you find a way in. You should not need to work legalisms to get into OA.

Overall, a nice article. Good story. I had to get past my natural reaction to: "oh oh, another negative BSA story." BSA was emphasized to make the story more interesting. "The Boy Scouts nixed the idea ..." ... Reality is some subset of a volunteer (or volunteers)) AND the scout could not find a combination of right choices and right ideas to make it a viable project. Another option was the scout could have designed and built some number of hydroponic kits that were shipped to Haiti for re-assembly by a receiving volunteer organization (school, church, etc). ... It's never as simple as BSA nixed the idea ... as if "BSA" (national) knew anything about the project.