fred8033

My questions might have been misunderstood. All related to BSA going chapter 7. How much would be available to victims if BSA went chapter 7. I doubt it would be $2.7B because there is no settlement; no insurance; no LC donation. My 3rd question was if victims would be better off with a chapter 7; not about about neutral party vs TDP and the $20k penalty to get your already existing rights to be heard. From what I read before, BSA chapter 7 would be worse off for everyone including victims. I even question whether chapter 7 is real or if it's a shadow state. BSA can

#1 Was there any talk of the toggle; BSA only bankruptcy? #2 How much would be available to victims? #3 Would victims get more than current path? I'm assuming LCs would not be pulled into BSA's chapter 7. Still a possibility, but far shot from what I've read. With Summit and Philmont debt laden and employee retirement programs ... and other legal cases ... and then the legal cost to liquidate assets that could be challenged, would victims really get more from chapter 7? ... Feels like this is a game of chicken where the cars crash full speed into each other. I j

No scouting answer because it's not about scouting. It about running a non-profit corporation. I'll back off on advice at this point. Find someone with expertise running a non-profit. Structure it very well. Find a good accountant (separate from your unit treasurer). Or work with your the head of your previous non-profit who's willing to help do this. While reading on this, I was reminded that things have drastically evolved. Want incorporation bylaws ? ... https://www.rocketlawyer.com/sem/non-profit-bylaws.rl?id=1547&partnerid=103&cid=15314942304&adgid=1295465

We can only hope.

Perhaps the "Will BSA Survive" should be asked in a different way because I believe BSA has a financial way to keep going BSA has a market to keep going BSA has a purpose to keep going Here's the big question ... will the exorbitantly expensive and purposefully incompetent demented bankruptcy process make enough progress to let BSA survive? Seriously, the patient is on the table bleeding out tens of millions of dollars each month and no one has a clue the when the settlement agreements will conclude. I know it's worse for so so many, but for BSA to survive, this really

I trust as you say that this is a "explore and see" type of deal. I agree with your wife that this begs everyone to lawyer up. This web site every periodically hosts questions from removed scouters looking to get the situation corrected. Add a publicly visible database. Add broadcasting the info to the world. Add assocation with an ugly, ugly crime. This really does need to be a public database but one managed by the appropriate government or pseudo-gov authority.

Yes. ... Are there two paths? One for criminal activity. One for G2SS violations without actual crime. Will the public database show only actual crimes or also rejected volunteers because they repeatedly violate G2SS? Then, non-crimes are in the publicly shared visible to the world database? The challenge I see is one I have personally encountered (not thru scouting). When I see criminal activity, my mandatory duty under the law is to file a police report. That's the law. Everything else is a nice have and extra hoops being asked of volunteers who donate their time. I h

Plus reporting statistics, etc. The volunteer screening database is a huge part of why we are here now. Society wasn't ready. So BSA tracked and excluded problematic volunteers. #13 now expands that and makes it more than publicly visible and coordinates with the rest of society? This just begs a huge new set of issues. The issue is not the database. The issue is BSA owning a national database shared with other organizations. I can 100% guarantee it will become the target of job searches and background checks. It will be a future legal mess. IMHO, BSA should minimize that

Short term (10-15 years) COVID has devested scouting. Don't expect a rapid rebound. It's like 9/11. Recruiting nights were killed. It was a measurable loss that tracked thru the years as kids aged. It was consistently measurable. That will be COVID. Those that continued active will continue. A few will return. Most youth though will have found other places to invest their time. I don't see bankruptcy as that huge of a membership issue. Parents are numb to organizations going thru bankruptcy, legal turmoil and having to be structurally fixed. Even after US Olympics ugliness,

Perhaps the wrong thread... That is a very useful answer, but not entirely clear or it doesn't really answer the question. Or are you saying, yes the funds in the trust can be used to finance the legal costs to sue the insurance companies to pay out on the insurance claims. Does that move affect agreements that were contingent and now become a fee-for-service drawing cash down? I'm just wondering ... say the fees and contingent services share pulls out 40% of $200m. Now you are at $120m. Of that $120m, would a check be sent to pay the victims? Or, is it all re-invested to sue th

Not sure what thread this goes in. It is a question from months ago. If BSA only bankruptcy put cash in trust for victims, is that money then dedicated to go to victims? Or can it be used by victim advocates to fund a next level of lawsuits? I realize the lawyer side could be used as needed. I was wondering though ... say if it was $200m in the trust ... would at least $100m go as checks to the victims? Or could it all be consumed to fund the next level of individual lawsuits?

Well said. That is what I'm learning too. Professor Kingsfield must have an appropriate quote on this.

Asking for clarification. I'll post my understanding to see if it's right. Civil and criminal SOL changes are very different. US Supreme Court decisions establish a line saying that civil SOLs can be retroactive; thus BSA's situation. At the same time, the US supreme court says removing criminal SOLs is blocked by U. S. Constitution’s Ex Post Facto Clause. Essentially, civil SOL changes can be retroactive, but criminal can't be. So, Missouri can't prosecute your abuser unless the abuse happened after the SOL removal or within the previously standing SOL time frame.

Define "end"? BSA exits bankruptcy as a new fresh company? Or approved agreements? Appeals / challenges resolved? Money is in the trust? Money distributed from the trust? If just simply BSA exits bankruptcy ... BSA entered Feb 2020. ... Exit date? ... I have no clue. All legal wrangling? Years. This forum will have a thread on this very topic going still in 2024. I hope BSA can exit bankruptcy this year. ... but it's just hope ...

I'd encourage everyone to find a way to work together. This is stressful and gut wrenching for all. General comments. Your church has a right to be concerned about signing the charter org agreement. It's not honorific. It's a contract. Words matter. ... The agreement says your church would "Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies." By signing, it your church is accepting responsibility. Your church needs to have a plan to fulfill that commitment. Maybe it means a board member involved in the unit. Maybe the COR/CC are involved

Hand it to the council and buy the award.

Absolutely. I agree. My pack(s) had to do that multiple times too. My apologies. Too late at night and I probably did not write sensitively. I'm like that. Sometimes I miss being sensitive. I did not mean to put the emphasis on the registration issue. I brought up registration to communicate that you should not penalize the DL because the registrations did not meet the exact award. Often, the registrations are outside the DLs control. My emphasis was on the fill out the award application and get them registered. IMHO, the adult awards are a thank you and should not be

"need to be registered" is the official answer. The answer I've often seen ... including from our council officials ... is if the person is doing the job, get them the recognition. ... NOW ... it begs why the pack doesn't have everyone registered in the right position. That is very important for training and knowing who works with the scouts. BUT, that's the committee chairs job to get all that straight. Don't penalize the den leader who's often only been in scouts for a few years and rarely has worked with chartering the unit and doing the registrations. The adult recogniti

Your situation is horrible and truly unimaginable. I did not imagine it. In my council, there are two more levels between DE and SE. A DE would never be promoted directly to SE. First promotion to a field director. Then, a promotion to a higher level director role. It's a 25-30 year route in my council. I really have a hard time imagining (not saying it didn't happen ... I'm saying I can't envision it) where an SE would give drugs, alcohol and porn. Perhaps I'm just too shielded from ugly things that people can do to each other.

Understood. A personal context is meaningful. The question was about whether someone could be personally liable if the insurance was not properly in place. The DE at the time was probably in his young 20s. Probably first job. Minimal pay. Not an excuse. Just that he was not in a controlling situation. I'd hope he would have prevented the abuse. But as an inexperienced, minimal pay, passing on info he was given, I can't see a court order reaching into the company and having him pay for your victimization. Those held personally liable and asked to pay are more in the Purdue s

BSA? National is bankrupt. There is no money there. It's moot. People? The former DEs that were making a small wage at the time? Probably not. They were simply the middle-man for the message they were being given. Negligent medium-level professionals who repeated it in the 1970s / 1980s / 1990s? You need to pull them out of the retirement homes to be sued. The executive professionals who planned / signed the insurance contracts? They need to be dug up to be sued. Local councils? Individually they just don't have the cash to cover the liabilities without insurance. Man

When I read this, I think about a single insurance company paying out twice for the same incident. I can't see an insurance company paying out a portion for a BSA claim. Then, later paying a separate portion for a LC claim. And, a separate portion for a CO claim. ... My understanding ... and this is what I'd like to understand ... before the insurance company pays anything to cover a list of incidents, that payment would have to cover the incident as a whole; not just the portion owed by one party. Are we in a multi-billion dollar game of chicken right now? No one can afford never

Could suits also face a LC challenge to negligence? If an LC can show relatively few cases and the LC followed procedure to roll them up, the LC could claim it was following trained procedure, doing more than other organizations and was blind to the BSA records showing larger number of incidents? ... I'm not sure it would work, but the negligence tier changes. In some ways, this seems right as it moves general huge level negligence into looking at specific incidents. That seems to be a good thing; extremely painful, but good. I should clarify "good". By good, I mean that I ab

Great answer. Wrong thread. Perhaps aims/goals/benefits need to be split between where leaders actively invest and where the scouts passively benefit. * Actively invest in camping, outdoors, etc * Passively benefit from character building, leadership, etc. I swear camping overnight in a torrential down pour goes a long way to a new scout building character and far more than almost all scout leaders.

Yet another potential tangent. For revisiting purpose, Let's de-escalate leadership. It's the natural outcome we can brag about. We should invest on fellowship. Youth spending time with youth. Youth working with youth. Leadership will be a natural outcome. Too often the program is damaged by badly teaching leadership. Reviewing this thead. Clearly reflects I need to get back to work.