fred8033

Fair enough. As everyone knows in these threads, I'm often off base. I appreciate the follow-up. I hate broad brushes being applied either direction. ... My son and I were talking about this the other night. We are of very different political views, but the one common ... and this is what I value ... we need to find ways to talk with each other. Debate. Discuss. Understanding promotes common ground. It's why I cringe at labels either direction.

Yeah ... it's at best quirky to assert a group's failed ideals when at the same time labeling as bigotry when that other group is not comfortable with your group.

Any status? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Ok. Not really a secret, but something I forgot from years ago. When I took IOLS, somehow it did not get recorded and there was confusion. ... I was relatively new still at that time. I didn't know I could easily have called the council training director and get it resolved. ... BUT ... I worked near a council training staff person who had taught part of IOLS. That person and I met over a few several lunch hours and went thru key points in the syllabus. I went thru the skills and topics. He signed off on my IOLS and it got recorded. IMHO ... there should be a test out option. BUT, the training is often not about any specific skill. It's often more about attitude, meeting people and how to be a scout leader. IMHO ... if you can show ... such as in the above post ... that you have that experience, you should be able to test out. ... plus ... after all the experience above, I doubt IOLS would significantly change someones decision making.

@InquisitiveScouter ... My apologies. It's the continual dumping. Statements like: that's failure. stuck in the 1970s. holding other groups which trashing their own. It was within ten years that I remember the local traveling hockey ... after checked into the hotel, all the adults went to the bar for the night ... except one adult stayed back at the hotel with the youth. I'm almost 100% that adult had not been background checked or trained. Just a dad that did not want to sit in a bar. I remember other similar groups had similar practices. It was common and there are still many bad practices. It really feels like people just want to complain. BSA training and registration have drastically improved in the last twenty years. It still has a long way to go. In some ways, BSA is suffering because it did start 15 years ago with online training. I've now seen many versions of online training. It's expensive to keep re-designing. Similar for registration. It will keep improving. It's not ideal. But BSA is far from deserving the trash talk.

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Glad to hear. Not to be argumentative ... but ... the history of the last ten years is not consistent across organizations. When I use the WAY BACK MACHINE (archive.org) to look at our local groups, the the big transition was in 2017 for the city sports league and the school district school. The local city baseball league uses a regional resource that the state league co-founded to do background checks and training. The creation was explained as they had nothing else and wanted something easy and automated. I clearly remember the school volunteer registration started around ten years ago and their vendor shows significant ramp up between 2015 and 2018. I'm saying ... Don't paint too broad of a brush. This last ten years has been drastically evolving. BSA has been moving at least as fast if not faster. The real challenge now is their automation is not as clean as some of the other groups. ... now that I think about it ... BSA does provide scoutbook; any registered unit member can see the roster. The roster of leaders means the person has had background checks and completed youth protection training. IMHO, I'd also like to see it indicate if each position has completed position specific training. BUT, every parent can see if the leader state. ... Perhaps it should be more explicit ... "THESE ARE THE REGISTERED LEADERS THAT HAVE COMPLETED BACKTGROUND CHECKS AND THE REQUIRED YOUTH PROTECTION TRAINING. ... ANYONE ELSE HELPING THAT DOES NOT APPEAR HERE HAS NOT BEEN CLEARED."

Glad to hear the current state of art in the original post. It's good news. It is the BSA direction too. This is a reflection of ten years of huge evolution with technology. The NICA site sounds good, but I'm sure they have their dirty laundry too. What if you don't click the link? Would the team coach be hapy if 3 of 10 parents complete the registration? What does your kid's team coach do if you don't register? Do you know if the other adults helping the team have registered, passed their checks and completed training? When team activities happen, is there coverage? SUGGESTION - I'd like to see broad visibility into the health of the unit. The training/registration reports are easily available to unit commissioners and to key unit leaders. IMHO, those same reports should be up-front available to each and every parent of a scout in the unit. Get big red Xs on the report showing not trained, not registered or expired background checks.

Well taken and accepted. Not sure whether to use a like, love or laugh emoji.

Perhaps it's best to keep this thread to the lawsuit. Perhaps we can agree that predators abuse where there are youth and where there is opportunity. We expect youth programs to be safe. I've truncated my long, lengthy, multi-pronged response. ... I'll save it incase it's useful. But it's a re-hash of three years of postings. I'll limit to ... Let's avoid the flippant. "You're entitled to your opinion but it's not based on facts." Sadly, it's usually followed by a fact that someone said something, but what was said was an opionion. Facts around CSA are extremely hard to find and even harder to compare. 4-H is only one program, but it may not be a good match as it's very different and not well understood by everyone. Even then, I question the reporting as 4H says it's the largest youth program with 6.5M members. Three times larger than little league or GSA or BSA. . BUT, I've known dozens of youth in so many other programs, but not one that I know by name that was in 4-H. I'm really amazed at that. ... My gut feeling is 4H is very different and might not be a good comparison. Perhaps it's better to compare scouts with school, music, sports, church, etc. Programs that that parallel scouts with years of deeper organized involvement.

Yeah, but cookies are sought and wanted versus the lame popcorn.

Also ... the events are also needed to create energy / connections for future contributions that don't get tied directly to the events. So losing money on some events might be acceptable if the overall on-going fundraising efforts are going well.

Really nice. This is very special.

I can share my personal view of the fraud. Hoping it's appropriate here. If not appropriate, please feel free to delete. Victims - Intentional fraud I don't believe intentional victim fraud is significant. This is absolutely not a get-rich-quick scheme. This is not like whiplash or claiming a work injured bad back. This is injecting yourself into an ugly past; with life-changing implications and the case will take years to work thru. This means interviews, follow-on and years of waiting for cash. Perhaps there is some small number wishing to associate with a large legal case or be famous for some reason or chase future dollars. ... I just don't see it as significant. Victims - Unintentional fraud or imperfect cases I don't believe this is a significant impact. I believe some facts may be influenced to better the case. I believe some incidents are outside SOLs or outside other limitations. I believe some incidents are less connected to scouting. An example being someone who had strong connection to the abuser outside scouting. I believe some victims have incomplete or vague memories. Memories of 7 to 14 years old are rarely clear 40/50 years late. I believe some victims may not know the scouting relationships involved or if they were even in scouts. Perhaps it was Indian Guides, squires, church youth group or another similar youth organization. Legal process Intentional fraud to preserve victim's rights (or to get largest number of claims). Absolutely. This is where I believe there has been fraud. Period. Fraud with signatures, unfulfilled expectations, process, deadlines, paperwork, representation, etc. It's an ethical justification of fraud to argue "preserving the rights" of the victim. Leave that to an ethics course. "Officer, I'm running late for my appointment". Whatever. It's still fraud. The deadlines were clear. The court expectations were clear. Not fraud is providing a list of pending paperwork to the court before the deadline and then submitting correct paperwork the next week. I'd be surprised if the court rejected those additions. Instead, court expectations were intentionally ignored. I do believe there is still case duplication across firms. I'm not sure if it is a large, but with what I've seen I'm begging firms will be arguing with the trust on who represents who. I just don't see victim fraud as significant. ... Legal fraud? ... well ...

@mashmaster ... I'm sorry. It's hard when so much is invested and is lost soon after. I've seen it on both ends (packs and troops). It's just one of many strong indicators that the BSA scouting program needs significant re-engineering.

I've heard good things, but I cringe when my fellow adult leader used his bripe. It's like a coffee hookah. I know it has nothing to do with it, but it teases a drug culture. It's just something I want to avoid on a scout trip. I want scouts to think I'm as basic as possible.

Thanks. I fear I'm watching this more than I ever watched any single sporting event. ... I'm still wondering how all the insurance will wash out. ... I know it's been explained to me before, but it feels like it's a pressure game and seeing who flinches first. Not looking for an answer, but I read documents like this one ... https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/17379ed6-8eb0-454b-bf0a-ed5187df49c1_BSA_Coverage_Charts_consolidated.pdf ... and wonder ... why would some of the insurance companies ever settle? Insurance is stacked. Many of the policies provided "excess" insurance to pay damanges after a first portion is paid. There are thresholds. If the first source of insurance settles for less than the "excess" threshold, I just don't get why the later insurance would be triggered, ever. In the 1990s, I benefited (a payout) from a class action against BCBS (Blue Cross Blue Shield). BCBS negotiated invoice discounts on their portion of the bill, but did not pass the discount to the insured. The insured was paying based on the raw invoice. So if the insured per contract was to pay 20%, the reality was the insured was often paying a far higher percent because BCBS had their privately negotiated discount. ... That seems analogous here. ... I don't get how some of the tiered insurance companies will be liable to pay when the primary insurance settles for less than the amount that triggers the excess.

This a previously discussed insurer concern. Months ago? Year+? Insurers saying they are being thrown under the bankruptcy bus without the policy holder helping triage / defend the claims. Instead, the policies will be held by a trust who's interest is to get the most possible from the insurer. Question: Is this really different than other huge insurance claims. Bankruptcy is like the insured going out of business. Further liability is passed up to the insurance company? Once the insured maxed out how much to pay, the insured stops defending the claim.

Question ... Is there an in-between? Approaching it from a bling perspective and an excitement to learn, if a youth is excited to pursue something ... or if a troop has a special resource that can add excitement for the scouts ... a professional pilot ... a physics professor who can teach really well ... a special research labratory ... why can't BSA have a mechanism to provide the bling as recognition they did something. With that said, the NOVA and STEM seemed yet another path for parents to learn when they were already trying to navigate their kids thru cubs and scouts. Couldn't the NOVA / STEM just be MBs with a collection of MBs leading to a recognition?

Mostly based on the application. It requires a unit leader signature. That is the chance for the unit to indicate whether unit accepts the scout. A key point to remember is we are all volunteers. We don't get paid to do this. Now, I will agree that units chartered to public organizations (city, school, etc) can't discriminate on race, creed, color, etc. But, they can discriminate based on the scout not living in the geography they serve or a similar criteria. ... I'm not saying it's a good idea. I'm saying units are not forced to accept scouts.

We'll have to differ here. Swimming MB - Swimming is explicitly called out in the Life Saving MB requirements. That's a BSA expectation, not your troop. Family Life / Personal Mgmt - I wholly disagree that Family Life and Personal Management are more meaningful at 16-17. In fact, I'd argue these could easily be viewed as much better to earn earlier. For example, Family Life #3 list your family duties / chores and do them for 90 days. I'm pretty sure most mothers would rather their sons start this requirement at 12 years old than at 17 right before they leave for college. Same for every family life requirement. Those are better to learn earlier to contribute and participate in the family better. ... I think same can be argued for personal mgmt. ... The only big difference is 50% of scouts have a job at 16/17 and thus have money to manage. ... BUT, I'd rather see them know in advance to think about saving and budging versus be about to age out. I respect your position. It's common and reasoned. My view is mainly coming from a tangent. I want unit to encourage advancement, but stop overly influencing the scout's journey. It's their journey; not the adults.

Nice to see it written there. Nicely worded too. I'd argue that it's not just limited to religious COs. Organizations that become COs can be selective in their membership. I'm not sure COs even need a clean policy though it definitely helps. For example, a Mayberry Citizens League CO could refuse a youth living in Mount Airy. ... I've not seen it happen, but I could.

My opinion is always "WHEN" is in the scout's control. Even suggesting "when" risks adults planning the scout's advancement too much. I even more fear troops that try to plan out the badge. As for MBC preparing thinking about when to do the badge, your comments could apply to most badges. A meal or camp fire setting is great for many badges. Great memories sitting against a tree talking about citizen of the nation. District / council level event is fine if the MBC is strong and can "MC" it. My least favorite is conference room / seminar setting as scouting should not look or smell like school. As alluded earlier, this is just another badge. Same methods to make other badges meaningful apply here ... with the exception that the MBC needs to tap dance around political issues and listen far more than speak or teach.

I have not, but I've listened to a feedback by a counselor. His feedback was it needs the right MBC and the badge can go south really quick. His experience was concurrently counseling multiple scouts. He was careful to not present his views, but other scouts felt very comfortable giving their own. He was less a MBC and more a mediator keeping the peace between scouts. It's why I'll never MBC this badge. I just could not help but to inject my thoughts (liberal or conservative). It's the whole purpose of being a MBC; to inject your skill and life experiences.

No. The clause protects the religious freedom of a scout already a unit member. It does not say COs need to take on scouts of other faiths. "In no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faiths be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church." I'm actually more on the side that I find scouting best with mixed faiths and not tightly tied to a CO faith; aka the troop as a community service of the CO. But, if we ask the CO to sponsor and expose the CO to legal liabilities, then we should recognize the CO having the option to make the unit a true ministry of their organization. ... again ... the CO relationship needs complete redesign.