emb021

Uh, the Scouter's Key is only available to the key unit leader of troops, teams, crews, and ships. Its not available to their assistants or to leaders in cub scouting. As OKScouting is involved in Cub Scouting, his leaders need to be looking at the appropriate cub scout leader training awards.

Am surprised there aren't any pictures of scouters with their merit badge sashes in the scout handbook that would have helped. Here is an old Rockwell painting showing it being worn properly: http://home.dejazzd.com/shenning/images/r1965.jpg

OKscouter- There already exists something to met your needs. Adults who complete training to be considered "Basic Trained" earn the right to wear the "Trained" strip on their uniform. Recognize them when they met this goal by presenting them with the strip. Also, there are the training awards. Encourage them to work toward earning them.

"emb021 "However some boys are only in a Venturing Crew, and they can work toward earning Star-Life -Eagle as a Venturer/Sea Scout and that should be fine." Now are these boys registered in a Troop or did they earn at least First Class Scout in that Troop because if these Venturers or Sea Scouts were never Boy Scouts they cannot earn Boy Scout advancement or merit badges in the crew/ship. your first point is correct but your second point is not specific. " Uh, again, do you having any of the literature? These questions you have are answered there. The policy is (and has been since, oh, the 1930s or so), is that if a Venturer/Sea Scout has earned atleast First Class Scout in a Boy Scout Troop or Varsity Scout Team, they may continue to earn Star, Life, & Eagle IN A VENTURING CREW as a Venturer, until they turn 18. They do not need to be dual-registered in a troop to do this. "Silver Award may be Eagle Equivalent but Venturing Reference Guide in the back of the Venturing Leader Manual does not say. Hence my question and suggestion. These rules are in the Venturing Leader Manual and Boy Scout Handbook and the Sea Scout Manual." Uh, we don't speak of ANY award as being 'Eagle Equivalent'. Silver is the highest Venturing Award. Quartermaster is the highest Sea Scout Award. Hence, they are 'equivalent' to Eagle. "However I will conceit that Venturing is open ended and should remain that way." Well, I would hope so as that is how the program was developed. I recommend you learn what the program is.

"Please correct me if I am wrong, Is that Venturing is about youth run programming, Venturers elect their own youth leadership and can plan their own program and they can Hike the Appalachian Trail or Canoe Lake Erie if that is what the crew elects to do. Also young men and women work together to get the program going." Yes, that describes the Venturing program. Have you read the venturing literature? are you involved in any way with Venturing? "Can youth elect to include a crew wide Recognition program as well." Not sure what you mean. There already existes a Venturing Recognition program: Bronze-Gold-Silver, along with Ranger, Quest, and Trust. Its the choice of EACH Venturer if they want to pursue these awards. The Crew can choice to build their program around these awards so that everyone in the crew earns them (or have the opportunity to do so). "Venturing is also about Leadership and learning to lead at a future time and to carry these skills with them as they leave the crew and head to college, the military, or their future careers. I do believe that Venturing Recognition do enhance their program but I believe that if a young person is a Venturer then Venturing recognition is all that is awarded in the Crew." While the part about leadership is true, I don't understand why you wish to limit things to Venturing recognition. There should be no problem with Venturers earning the President's Volunteer Service Award or the Congressional Award, etc. Why limit their recognition to just 'Venturing' recognition. That is NOT how the Method of Recognition works in Venturing. "This is not to say that young men and women in a crew can't be dual registered in a Boy Scout Troop or Girl Scout Troop and if they are then they should earn their troop ranks and awards in their troops." If they are dual registered, that is what they are doing. However, some boys are ONLY in a Venturing Crew, and they can work toward earning Star-Life-Eagle as a Venturer/Sea Scout, and that should be fine. "the Venturing Silver Award should also be given status that is equivalent to the BSA Eagle Award the same way that Sea Scout Quartermaster is. " Uh, it does have that status. That is why it has a knot. So I don't understand your point. Since it is very new compared to Eagle Scout (around since 1910) and Quartermaster (since 1925), many organizations aren't aware of it, so it doesn't yet have the cache of those, but that is slowly changing.

"Venturing is flexible program that it is already modernized." I have to agree. I do not understand the point of "dana_renner"'s post. What is the issue? What you seem to be describing as 'ways to modernize' is really more a description of what the program is.

"What do you use the Ordeal bread for?" Its used to feed the ordeal candidates.

This thread is about the poly/wool uniform shirt. It is not about the red wool jac-shirt/jacket. Yes, the cost of a red wool jac-shirt is high. Nobody is going to get upset if you aren't wearing one. I actually have a red rain jacket I wear when I need to. An alternate to paying the high cost of the Scout Shop is get one off eBay. That's were I got mine. And a lot cheaper, too.

The Leadership Training Committee booklet gives several ways training may be delivered to scouters who need it. I wonder how a leader who doesn't have the time to take training has the time to be a leader?

True about the 'other definition' for SME. But I've heard similiar for FOS. 'Fund our salary', etc.

Hmmmm. How to begin. Several of us tried to help out someone in a similiar situation. Much of the advise we gave here applies here, tho you seem to be in a slightly different situation. * Get training in the Venturing Program. We can't emphasis it enought that Venturing is NOT Boy Scouting and its NOT Cub Scouting. Thus its vital to get training in what Venturing is (and isn't). Probably the WORSE Venturing leader is one who was a Boy Scout or Cub Scout leader, doesn't think they need the Venturing training, and thinks there is no real difference in the programs. Take Venturing Fast Start ASAP. You can do this on-line at the National site. Or borrow the video New Crew Fast Start (AV-03V013) Get Venturing Leader Specific Training in your district/council asap, even if it means driving a couple of hours to take it. * Get the Venturing literature. At a minimum, get the Venturing Leader Manual and READ thru it and get the Venturer Handbook/Ranger Guidebook. Consider getting the Venturing Leadership Skills Course syllabus, Quest Handbook, and Trust Handbook. And print off some of the Fact Sheets from the National site like the ones on Powder Horn, Kodiak, etc, so you have some idea what these are. * You need to work on additional leaders. If your crew is going to be a co-ed crew, you need to have both male and female adults along on trips. (they don't have to be leaders, they can be parents). And you should go thru the Venturing Leader YPT. This is separate from the YPT that cub scout and boy scout adult leaders take. It can be done on-line IF your council has made it available thru their website, otherwise you'll have to do the video version. Don't let your DE claims there is only one adult YPT course. There isn't. You want Youth Protection Guidelines: Training for Adult Venturing Leaders (AV-03V014). * A Venturing Crew should be a separate entitly/identity from a troop. Don't allow yours to restrict itself to just boys from the local troop that have aged out. Boys can (and should) join at 14. If there are boys who have gotten bored with the troop, they should be welcomed into the Crew. A boy CAN earn Eagle in a Crew, so don't allow some stiff necked 'red jacket' to claim they have to stay in the troop to get it. And all the youth in the crew should be encouraged (encouraged, NOT pressured or forced) to consider earning the Venturing Awards. * What is the focus on your Crew? That's an important factor. Each crew will specialize in one of the 5 areas of Venturing: Outdoor, Sports, Arts & Hobbies, Youth Ministries, and Sea Scouting (which means you would be a Sea Scout Ship). Now, if you want to be a Outdoor/High Adventure Crew, that's fine. But be sure that's what the youth in the crew want and will work toward. If so, you should go to Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills (yeah, its mainly for Boy Scout Leaders, but Venturing Leaders involved in outdoor crews who DON'T have the experience should go). And try to go to Powder Horn, too. * One final comment. Please get the terminology right. There is no such thing as "Venture scouters". This is the Venturing program, not Venture or Venture Scouts. We are Venturing leaders. That's all I can think of. Anyone else? Do you have further questions?

"Adviser, not Advisor Both spellings are correct English but the BSA uses the one ending with er." Sorry, but that is incorrect. The BSA actually uses both terms. In the OA, its "Adviser". In Venturing, its "Advisor". Don't believe me? Fine. Take a look at their office patches. Or check the Language of Scouting (www.scouting.org/identity/los/index.html): adviser Use this spelling when describing a counselor other than a Venturing Advisor. Example: "Order of the Arrow lodge adviser." Advisor The top adult leader of a Venturing crew who is responsible for program, coordination, and the training of the elected youth officers of the crew or ship.

Some comments. I seem to recall that in recent Boys' Life issues they run small articles highlighting the various religious awards in the BSA. If you think the BSA is only for judeo-christians, get a copy of the Religious Awards poster. Also, take a look at the new TRUST Award in Venturing. This award is the new advanced Religious/Community Award for Venturers. They expect the Venturer to get to know their religious belief further then what is covered in their particilar religious award, and lists a great deal of different religious belief.

"""Boy Scout device #00927, emblem earned as a Boy Scout; AND/OR Venturing device #00930, emblem earned as a Venturer or older Boy Scout or Varsity Scout." "OK, so you are limiting the Varsity Scout based on the OR, but ignoring the and/or for the Venturing device? " Please re-read my post. The above sentence you quote above comes VERBATIM from the BSA's "Insignia Guide". That's not my words, but the BSA's own policy. The Varsity Scout device is intended for Adult Leaders, not youth, to indicate that the adult Varsity Scout leader has earned the Scouter's Key or Scouters Training Award(s) as a Varisty Scout Leader. It was not created for Varsity Scouts to show they had earned a religous award as a Varsity Scout. HOWEVER, that said, if a Varsity Scout wished to wear the pin to indicate they had earned their God & Life (or equivalent) award as a Varsity Scout, I doubt most leaders would get upset. "This says to me that if you earn a religious emblem as an older Boy Scout you can choose which device to wear, the Boy Scout or the Venturing. " No, sorry, re-read it. If a youth, regardless of program (Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, Venturing) earns the God & Life (or equivalent fourth level religious award), they wear the the Venturing pin. They don't choice. Thus, a Boy Scout who has earned both the God & Church and God & Life awards doesn't wear 2 Boy Scout pins, but the Boy Scout & Venturing pins. "Personally, I don't think it is that big of a deal, but I really do not like the idea of wearing the Venturing insigna when not in the Venturing program. " Well, sorry, but this is a continuation of the previous rules of wearing the Exploring insignia that existed prior to 1998.

"how can i find indian hobbyists?" Is there no one in your Lodge interesting in indian culture? Indian dance? attending Pow Wows, etc? Check to see if there are any Pow Wows in your area and attend them. Ask questions. There are also organized Indian Hobbyist groups around the country. In the BSA, there are many times OA Lodge's Dance teams who are involved in this, sometimes even Venturing Crews.

"Well ive been sercheing on google non stop. Finding some things but not all i wanted. Whats an anthropoly departmant? Like is that people who search historys? " History and Anthropology are not the same thing. Anthropology is the study of man and his culture. Archaeology (you've heard of Indiana Jones?) is a subset of anthropology. In North America, the study of indian culture many times falls under the heading of Anthropology. Most large state universities will have a department of anthropology. History is a study of what happened in the past, but is limited to what is recorded (if its not recorded, its not history, its pre-history). History doesn't really get into cultural information, such as clothing and the like. For that, you need to delve into anthropology. Also, get in contact with 'Indian Hobbyists' in your area. Hopefully some are interested in local indian culture, and not generic plains indian stuff.

"Guess I need to get that cub scout pin too. I was told the purple knot is one award, then the next would be adding pins.. so by him having 1 pin on it meant 2 actual awards.. I guess the person that told me that was wrong... " That's not the way to think of this knot. The Religious Youth knot is one of several knots that can represent multiple awards. The knot devices serve 2 related purposes: WHICH program you received the award in, especially when it was in a program you are NOT currently in. ADDITION awards earned in multiple programs. For instance. A Cub Scout who has ONLY earned the Cub Scout level Religious Award would ONLY wear the knot, no device. WHY? They are currently a Cub Scout, so wearing the knot device would be redundant. Now, if that Cub Scout is now a Boy Scout, it WOULD be appropriate for them to wear the knot and device. It indicated that they received the religious award as a Cub Scout. The absense of also wearing a Boy Scout knot device indicated they have yet to earn an additional one. Same is true of knots like the Scouter's Key and Scouters Training Award. Even if you earned only one, there ARE times when it is appropriate to wear both the knot and device.

"Ok, for all you uniform police out there what about velcro so that you can take them on and off? I'm a Den Leader, Asst. Cubmaster, Asst. Scoutmaster, OA Chapter Advisor, Crew Advisor and Round Table staffer (4 kids in all three programs). Man I need to get a life! LOL I'm not buying 6 different shirts! I put velcro on the sleeve and patches, and change the shoulder epilates and patches to fit the activity." Go for it. No one will complain about you using Velcro. I have about 3-4 different shirts, but this is because I bought them over time, and I attend long-term events where I'll need extra clean uniforms. I actually use velcro (2in wide strips I get from WalMart) to attach my lodge flaps. Most lodges down here change their flap every couple of years and expect members to wear the current flap. With extra uniforms its easier to use velcro then sew new flaps on all my uniforms.

"Venturer wearing white socks." The color of the socks are not mentioned in the Venturing uniform 'policies'. Personally, I DON'T wear white socks with my Venturing uniform. I have some gray socks with 2 vertical blue strips I wore for awhile. Later on I got the 'official' Venturing socks. I usually wear those.

Experienced trainers are a must, but how does one get to be an 'experienced trainers' if new people aren't able to get on the training team? then the training team becomes an exclusive clique. Plus, you may be turning away people who are experienced training in other groups/organizations who aren't know by the training clique, I mean team. You could be turning away additional good people by not giving them a chance.

"If you are wearing grey loops there should not be a unit number on your sleeve. If there is a unit number then your uniform is representing that unit and you should wear the appropriate color loops for that unit. " Unit numbers are worn by unit-level scouters, who should obviously be wearing unit-level position patch & appropriate loops (blue, red, blaze, green) COR are NOT unit-level scouters. In fact, I have my copy of the "Insignia Guide" with me, and it lists COR under the Council/District Badges of Office, and lists it as a 'council scouter'. That said, it doesn't bother me when I see a COR wearing unit numbers, as that is probably the unit number of the unit(s) their CO has.

"I would like to know where you are getting your information as to using the Venturing pin to represent Boy Scout religious medals, I don't dispute your positiopn but would really like to be able to quote your source. " No problem. But realize I am NOT speaking about the "Boy Scout" religiou medal. I'm talking about the "God and Life" awards for OLDER Boy Scouts and Venturers and Varsity Scouts, NOT the "God and Church" award for younger Boy Scouts. This is stated in the "Insignia Guide". If you have questions about uniforms and insignia, this is the work to get. Be advices that some people just don't understand it. The Insignia Guide does NOT spend time saying who CAN'T wear something, only indicate who CAN. And some people just don't understand how the Guide says it. Anyway. At the end of the section listing all the knots is a footnote: "The miniature device worn with the youth religious emblem square knot indicated the emblem(s) earned as a youth. Wear Cub Scout device #00926, first level emblem (God & Me, Maccabee, etc) earned as a Tiger Cub or Cub Scout; Webelos Scout device #00932, for second-level emblem (God & Family, Parvuli Dei, Faith in God, Light of the World, Aleph, etc) earned as a Webelos Scout; Boy Scout device #00927, emblem earned as a Boy Scout; and/or Venturing device #00930, emblem earned as a Venturer or older Boy Scout or Varsity Scout. Only one knot is worn, but any combination of devices may be worn on the same knot." As you can see from the last point. Older Boy Scouts OR Varsity Scouts earning the God & Life level awards wear the Venturing device, NOT a Boy Scout Device and NOT a Varsity Scout device (the Varsity Scout device is really for adults earning training awards as Varsity Scout leaders).

Regarding the Religous Youth Award knot and knot devices. Depending on your religious group, you may have only a couple of religious awards, or several. There are a few that have religious awards for Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, Webelos Scouts, younger Boy Scouts (11-14) and older Boy Scouts/Venturers (14-18). Because these awards are NOT just for BSA members, they can be earned by Girl Scouts, Camp Fire members, church youth members, etc. Should a boy earn more then one of these, they wear the appropriate knot devices to indicate it. It doesn't matter what BSA program the boy is in, it matters which of the particilar religious awards they have earned. So if the boy has earned the Tiger Cub &/or Cub Scout Award, he wears a Cub Scout Knot device to indicate this. (or 2 if they got both, since there is no Tiger Cub knot device). If he earns the Webelos Award, he wears the Webelos Knot device. If he earns the younger Boy Scout Award (some religions may or may not have such, and may only have one award that all Boy Scouts earn), they would wear the Boy Scout knot device. If he earns the older Boy Scout Award (which is also intended for Venturers, and again some groups may not have two separate awards for different ages of Boy Scouts), then they would wear the Venturers knot device, even if they are NOT Venturers! I ran into a scout who was wearing 2 Boy Scout knot devices on his religious award knot. I knew this wasn't corrected, so I asked him why. Found out that he had earned the Webelos Award and the youth Boy Scout Award, but as he hadn't finished up the Webelos Award before he crossed over, he thought he had to wear the Boy Scout knot device. I told him this was incorrect and it was more correct to wear the Webelos knot device. MB

"The COR is on the recharter and I do pay a registration, and am a member of the committee. I have specific roles in the pack... I have a position patch on my sleeve.. not many CORs are active in the units from what I hear. " Yes, the COR is on the charter, as information, and yes you pay registraion because this is a registered position in the BSA. Being a Member of the [Pack] Committee is in ADDITION to your position as COR. Yes, some COR are not that active in their units. But they aren't required to be. Ideally they should drop by to see how things are doing. But their job is to represent the CHARTERED ORGANIZATION, NOT the unit, to the council. Have you taken the COR training??? "We are chartered to our parents.. We have not Chartered Org. I was chosen by the XO" Yes you do. ALL units MUST have a Chartered Organization, even if its only a "Friends of Unit XXX" or "Parents of Unit XXX" type group. This Executive Officer is the Executive Office of SOME organization, right?

All- One of the big mistakes/myths about knots is that 'they are only for adults'. Actually, there are several knots that can be worn by youth: * Religious Youth Award * James West Award (some OA Lodges present them to youth!) * lifesaving award knots * Hornaday Award * OA Distinguished Service Award * Venturing Silver Award (no patch, so youth have to wear it) * Quartermaster Award * Venturing Leadership Award The rest of the knots are usually: knots to represent youth awards (AOL, Eagle), knots for adult training, and knots for adult recognition awards. MB