emb021

"Is it a vestigial remnant of some past time when it DID go on the pocket flap? " What past time? Tot'n Chip et al were only cards. Its only be since, oh, the 1990s or so that people started to make patches for them. I've never understood the logic of either having a patch (as someone noted, you can't tear a corner of one) or why someone decided to make them vagely flap-shapped. (I've always wonder if it might have been some scout leader figuring that only the younger scouts would want to wear a tot'n chip patch, and since said younger scouts would not in the OA, why not make it flap shaped so they can wear it there as an 'ego boost' until they are older and have been elected into the OA). I don't mind souvenir patches, but you get some people who feel they just HAVE to wear said patch on their uniform, rather then using it on a patch vest, blanket, etc. (or just tossing it in their collection box) even if the patch doesn't belong on the uniform (there are several that DON'T).

"What about the skill patches: whittle & chip tote & chip Don't they go on a pocket flap? " No. Despite their shape, they should go on the pocket. they are temporary insignia.

"I'd personally think it in bad taste to make a temporary patch for the right pocket flap since some of the leaders who were there might be OA members." Have to agree. Whoever decided to make the patches that way (and whoever allowed it) weren't thinking too well. The right pocket flap is pretty much 'reserved' for the OA flap (for good reason). National Pack Summertime award also goes there, but since a Cub Scout would not be able to wear an OA flap, there really isn't a conflict. An event patch needs to be worn ON the right pocket, and should be shaped to do so. Odd shaped patches are find, so long as it goes on the pocket.

"OA is the National Honor Society for BOYSCOUTS not Venturing" Sorry, but that's not the phrase that is used. The phrase is "Scouting's National Honor Society". Venturing is part of Scouting. (also, if its for Boy Scouts, what about Varsity Scouts?)

"The leaders of a Scout unit come from a community, and are known to the community. Leaders from other Scout units are not necessarily known to the community, and should work through the residnet adult leadership, unless we are talking true emergency." Interesting concept. So much for the "world brotherhood of scouting". This may be an ok concept for Cub Scouts. I know as a Cub Scout I had little if any contact with any scouter who wasn't part of my Pack. I don't know if I attended any district cub scout event. However, in the Boy Scout program, this is silly. In Boy Scouts, the 'community' is not the unit, but the whole district and council. The average scout will have contact with many, many scouters. This can happen thru attendence at district/council events (camporees, scout show, etc), involvement in OA, being part of council contingents to Jamboree, high adventure bases, etc. Summer camp (and staffing same). Or even joint events with other troops. I think by the time I had aged out of Boy Scouts, I knew probably 20-30 scouters outside of my unit. And I don't think I ever heard my troop leaders tell us that we weren't to listen to those 'outsiders'. The attitude I had always seen was that you were expected to show respect for those non-unit scouters as you do with your unit scouters.

Per "National", there is no such thing as 'Class A' or 'Class B' uniforms. They prefer 'field uniform' and 'activity uniforms'. The terms apparently came from the military. However, most local people (councils, council camps, OA lodges) use them and most know what the terms mean. (I was first introduced to the term when I attended the 1981 National Jamboree as a youth. I used and heard the use of the term since)

There is no time limit for how long you wear a temporary patch. I always recommend to people that if a 'temporary patch' comes with a button loop, to use it and not sew it on. This makes it easy to swap out patches for different occasions. (I usually wear my Philmont Arrowhead patch, but will sometimes switch it out for other patches if I feel the situation is appropriate). Oh, and to answer your question. A lot of scouters (including National people. was he a volunteer or a professional?) aren't aware that female Cub Scout leaders wear their temporary patch above the right pocket. Now, I thought that was ONLY true on the yellow blouse, but the inspection sheet doesn't say that, so I guess it doesn't matter if its tan or yellow.

"Crew Officer Briefing (Quarterdeck training) or VLSC" "Is it better for a new crew(ship)starting up to do one of these before the other? " Yes. There is a loose order/continuum. The intention is that Venturers first do the Venturing Crew Orientation. This is done on-line from the new On-Line Training Center (http://olc.scouting.org/). (its not yet on CD, but some are doing this on their own) They then move to doing the Crew Officer Briefing, conducted by their advisor. This is where you also doing program planning for the unit. THEN they take VLSC. VLSC focuses on leadership skills that they will use in their job. (however, VLSC is intended for ALL the Venturers, not just the officers). After that they can move to doing Kodiak/Kodiak-X and if Sea Scouts, SEAL. (btw, the Leadership Training manual from National gives this order, tho they leave out Kodiak/Kodiak-X).

Is there a middle ground? Well, it can depend on the person. I'm a sticker for correct uniforming, but with me there are 'degrees' of what bothers me about others uniforms. * Don't care level. stuff a little 'off'. patches attached not 'quite' right'. Space between unit numbers, etc. Trained patch at bottom of left sleeve instead of right below the office patch, etc. World crest a little off. Non-BSA hats that are still scouting hats. Non-BSA coats/outer wear. * A bit annoying. trained patch without an office patch. service stars a bit off. Non-BSA non-scouting hats, non-BSA clothing items (pants, really). * Really annoying. wearing stuff at wrong time (formal/dress items at wrong time, like merit sashes). Bad neckerchief wear (buttoning top button, not rolling neckerchief, etc). Incorrect service stars, knots, etc. Stuff you shouldn't be wearing any more (adults wearing youth stuff, etc). World Conservation Award in wrong location. Improper Jamboree patch wear, etc. * Very annoying. Patches in totally wrong place. (equipment patches or swim wear patches on uniform, wrong sleeve) Patches you aren't entitled to. I pretty much never say anything unless its at the 'really annoying' or 'very annoying' levels, and even then probably won't say anything. I typically phrase it along the lines of explaining how the items should be worn, and leave it to the person to correct it. (ie: "are you aware that what you're wearing indicates this...", or "it should be worn here/in this manner..."). Many people are just very ignorant on how things should be worn. And its annoying that some don't think that people should be informed of this. How else will they learn? (oh, yeah, their unit leaders, who probably don't know themselves will do this...)

Sigh. Let's move on to other matters. "Now this is something that I have seen so very little of... interaction between the OA and Packs. It almost never happens, at least around here. So as I move forward to a whole new set of responsibilities, I'm hoping some of you folks could give me some ideas: what, besides A of L and Bridging, are some ways that one might be able to bring Packs and the OA together?" Until very recently, there had been little interaction between the OA and Cub Scouting. That is changing, on a National level. The OA has created some programs and materials to encourage lodges to do more with the Cub Scout youth. Check with your lodge (or better yet, check the national OA site)

"Webelos Scouts that are still in Pack but dedicated to a Troop?" Webelos Scouts are still in a Pack. they wear blue loops (if they wear the tan). they can only wear red once the've moved to the troop and become boy scouts. 'dedicated to a troop' is meaningless. (sort of like the nonsense I hear from some Boy Scouts who are also Venturers: "what do I wear on my Boy Scout uniform to indicate that I'm also a Venturer?" Answer: nothing. [tho service stars for Venturing would be ok, as would the Venturing Silver Award Knot])

Take a look at the Sea Scout Manual for some indoor program ideas. Setup a boat with good/bad safety examples, see if they get right. Setup a sailboat, with challenge to correctly mark them. Setup a knot board with interesting nautical knots. Setup a 'kiddie pool' with radio controlled boats. Add to it with a boat safety challenge (setup markers, bouys in water, have to navigate it correctly). Setup a 'skuttlebutt', a rope basket you haul people up in. Also, have a display of Sea Scout literature, insignia, uniforms. Maybe team up with CGA or USPS?

"Actually, I had my council exec tell me after the last jamboree, that he didn't care if we left our jamboree CSP on after 6 months, as he has the right to do." Its National policy that you don't. Your SE doesn't have the right to overrule it. However, most people don't care (many cause they don't know this policy. National does a poor job of making it known). I don't care. I have a shirt for each jamboree I attended, with the Jamboree patch left on it, along with the appropriate regional jamboree patch and JSP. Doesn't bother me in the least if people keep wearing their JSP, so long as they are entitled to and wear it with the appropriate Jamboree patch. "As to the wearing of jamboree commemorative CSP's by non-participants, that I was not aware of, thanks for the info." Problem is that many non-participants (ie visitors) think they can visit the jamboree and this entitles them to wear the Jamboree patch on their uniform. A couple of jamborees back National put out a separate "visitor patch", but many visitors think they are entitled to wear it above the right pocket (it really goes ON the right pocket like any other temporary insignia). "By the way, nobody wastes anybodys time by asking questions, that is what this forum is for. If you want to chew people out for asking questions on a forum for that purpose, please go elsewhere. " ???? Not sure where this came from. Nothing in this thread would lead anyone to say this. Prehaps you need to re-read stuff?

"I disagree with emb021. There is absolutely no rule that says everyone in a council should wear the same CSP. If the council has issued it, it's wearable. " No, there is no such rule. But its something embodied in what a CSP is. Just because a patch is in the SHAPE of a CSP, doesn't make it a CSP. A CSP is a 'Council Shoulder Patch', which is worn to identify the council you are part of. Its a patch that EVERYONE in the council should be wearing. Your SE is supposed to authorize what is your CSP, which should be freely available/sold to all in the council. In recent years, council have gone overboard in creating a wide range of patches that while SHAPED like a CSP, really AREN'T. Creating Eagle Scout 'CSPs', or 'Commissioner CSPs' or 'Wood Badge' CSPs are all well and good, but these aren't really CSP *if everyone can't wear them*, which if they aren't Eagle Scouts or Commissioners or Wood Badgers, they can't (and in most cases aren't available/sold to everyone either). And too many SE make the mistake of authorizing many of these patches AS CSPs. They really should be treated as souvenir patches and put away in your collection of stuff, not worn on your uniform. In fact, in the collector realm, these are all refered to as "Shoulder Activity Patches", instead of CSPs. Jamboree Shoulder Patches (JSP) fall into a similiar same realm. PER NATIONAL POLICY, you are only to wear them for 6 months before and after the Jamboree. Most don't even know this, and most don't follow it. Yawn. So what? My old Jambo uniforms still have the appropriate JSPs (but I stopped putting on JSPs about 2 Jambos back) However, unless you are a Jamboree participant/staffer, you have no more business wearing a JSP then a Jamboree patch. [personally, I get more annoyed with the youth who continue to wear their jamboree unit numbers, etc, after the Jamboree is over. Its more important to remove them then their JSPs] There is a guy named Mike Walton, who maintains an excellent site on uniforms. He explains all of this, and backs it up with National policies.

"There is an adult Scouter in our district that wears a tan uniform shirt, both silver and green shoulder loops at the same time, An instructor patch on his left sleeve, service stars indicating 30 years of service with orange (Tiger Cub) backing, and a lodge flap for our councils lodge which he is not a member of." "The Scouter is not and has not been on the membership list of the councils lodge for several years. He may have been a member at one time." Sounds like a "Sash and Dash". That's a local term for a person who goes thru the OA Ordeal, gets his sash and flap, then never pays his dues, attends OA events, etc, but continues to wear the flap. Most if not all of the lodges in my state change their flap about every couple of years, sometime to catch these sorts (if you aren't wearing the current flap, are you currently up on your dues? Most OA members down here use velcro or the like to attach their flaps to the uniform, which makes it easy to change out flaps and not waste extra flaps on their extra uniforms).

"that's a very interesting idea which I had never considered before. Council Execs are empowered to make changes to the uniform! How about that! " Uh, yes and no. SE have limits. They approve CSP designs, temporary insignia, and crew/ship insignia. they don't get to make radical alternations/additions to the uniform. A lot of councils have local-approved knots for various things (commissioner college, local awards, etc). All 'allowed' under the above 'policy'. Well, no more. They put out a notice in "ProSpeak" (newsletter to professionals) that SE were NOT allowed to 'approval' local knots. Guess maybe a similiar notice needs to go out about all these spurious shoulder loops?

All- This is NOT a 'grey area'. Non-Jambo scouts can not wear JSPs (Jamboree Shoulder Patch). Their wear is restricted to Jamboree staff and participants to that particular jamboree from that council. The JSP gives the impression that one has gone to the Jamboree (note- visiting doesn't count. You must be a participant or staff) Also, I've heard that the wearing of the JSP should stop six months after the jamboree is over. Your nephew needs to understand that the CSP is meant to identify the council he is from, and its an item that EVERYONE in the council should be wear that is the SAME. While many councils put out "Eagle Scout", "Commissioner", "WB", "FOS" and the like as fundraiser patches, really none of them should be worn. I won't wear any of those, but won't waste my time bugging others about it.

Got me. I've had my WB neckerchief since 1989, and have done nothing special with it. I've had no reason to wash it, and I've never seen the need to iron or starch it.

Also, keep in mind that APO is NOT an 'honor society'. APO is a college service fraternity. While there are some similarities with OA (college fraternities were one of the influences), there are differences. As I've said before, if people have an interest in establishing a "Venturing Honor Society", please take a look at the wide range of similiar groups that were established in the past. (go to http://usscouts.org/usscouts/honorsociety/honorscout.html). I think too many get wrapped up in this 'don't want to be like the OA' with little understanding of what the OA is, what it was originally established to do, and how it has changed over the years AND are totally ignorant of the other kinds of groups that existed out there. Some groups were camp societies, others took their inspiration from college fraternities or fraternal groups like the masons, some took inspiration from American Indian culture, others from knighthood, others from the American Frontiersman. Others limited themselves to only Eagle Scouts, others were mainly leadership groups or service groups. There were a LOT of variety. What do the kids want in an VHS? How is this different from what can exist with a VOA and the Venturing Leadership Awards, etc.

APO still has a relationship with the BSA. If you had looked at our National Partners page, you will see the BSA listed with several other NPs (America's Promise, USA Freedom Corps, Camp Fire, Youth Service America, Better World Books, etc) A member of the BSA National Council sits on our National BOD as an ex-officio member. We also have a member of APO sit on the National Relationships Committee. APO is still listed in BSA literature (BSHB, SMHB, OAHB, Venturing lit). This summer, two of us will be manning a both at NOAC. At the Jamboree we have both an Info Booth & an APO Service Corps. We also have info booth at the BSA National Meeting and Top Hands Meeting. While we have recently signed a MOU with Camp Fire, we don't have the same connections with them as with the BSA. (I happened to be an APO Brother, and am also a member of our National Scouting & Youth Services Committee. I'm also one of the people to man our NOAC booth)

Is your DE related to that other guy's DE?? As has been noted, Venturing is NOT 'all outdoors', a frequent mistake. if it was, then Venturing Advisors would be required to go thru Outdoor Leader Skills like Troop leaders are. Here is a list of all the Venturing Specialty Codes: http://usscouts.org/venturing/specialcode.html If you look, the arts & hobbies are mainly indoors, many of the sports are indoor sports. I've heard of crews that focus on role playing games, school plays, computers, and the like. I personally think we make a bit of a mistake in overly emphasising outdoor high adventure. That's the biggest part of Venturing, but its not the only thing.

"I agree that there are a good many supportive and reinforcement types of programs like Pow-Wow. These programs are not always promoted as an official "Training" per-se. Roundtable is often viewed as a scouters social club and the training aspect of Roundtable is sometimes left out of the equation (not every case, I know). " You need to take a look at the 'training continum' as National sees it. Take a look at the Leadership Committee book and other sources. National classifies training into 4 groups: * Fast Start * Basic Training (this is NLE and Position Specific, and as needed Outdoor training) * Supplemental Training (this is a broad group that includes a lot of training. The various safety certification courses. Roundtable (this should be ongoing supplemental training. some scouters don't get it and think its just an information meeting). Volunteer training at Sea Base and PTC. University of Scouting, Pow Wows, and other such locally provided training. Powder Horn. Sea Badge. (tho some think the last 2 are advanced. not per National) * Advanced Training (only one course in this level: Wood Badge

"Can Sea Scout Ships elect their own uniforms the way that Venture Crews can?" Its Venturing Crews, not 'Venture Crew'. Yes, Sea Scout Ships can design their own uniforms. I know of several that do. I've heard of some Ships out in California who wear aloha shirts with sea scout insignia on them. Have seen a ship that wears a blue fishing shirt. The National Sea Scout Committee has set down the standard for Sea Scout uniforms, which is shown in the current Sea Scout Manual. They mandate these uniforms for National/Regional Sea Scout events (SEAL courses, Koch Cup, some regional sea scout regattas/rendezvous, National Jamboree, etc). So if you ship (or its members) are going to participate with these things, keep that in mind. Keep in mind that the Sea Scout uniform is a modified naval uniform. As such, you can use naval surplus and other sources AND they are a lot cheaper then the current BSA uniforms. I do occasional work with Sea Scouts at the council level, and have both a white and tan uniform. I had mainly got them for 'demonstration' purposes, but as the cost was so reasonable, it wasn't a big deal. Most sea scout should consider having a set of white crackerjacks. Most of the adults I know around here have a set of white. I see an occasional youth in white uniforms like the adults wear or the chambray blue work uniform. An occasional adult will show up in whites. Almost no one down here has blues.

All- Venturing Silver is the highest award in the Venturing program. Quartermaster is the highest award in the Sea Scout program. Thus, its proper to refer to Venturing Silver and Quartermaster, along with Eagle Scout, as the 'highest awards of scouting'. Trust, Ranger, and Quest are NOT 'highest awards'. They are speciality awards. They are NOT 'specific' to certain crews. ANY Venturer, regardless of the speciality of their crew, can earn them. The new Trust Handbook as the best breakdown/list of these awards. Bronze-Gold-Silver is the advancement program for Venturers, Apprentice-Ordinary-Able-QM the advancement program for Sea Scouts, T-R-Q the speciality awards.

Sorry, but I have very missed feelings about West and his 'contributions' to scouting. I recommend people read the recent bio on him. While West did many good things for the BSA, he also made several bad decisions. Some of the organizations problems I see in the BSA are caused by these bad decisions.