emb021

"When NLE rolled out, the entire package was NLE, and you had not finished NLE until you had finished PST." Sorry, but that's incorrect PER NATIONAL. 'NLE' ONLY applies to the 90-minute New Leader Essentials course. It does not apply in any way to the various Position-Specific Training. If you look at the on-line page on the "Training Continuim" (http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-390), you will in fact read that the 90-minute NLE course is the FIRST section of Basic Leader Training. So National does NOT use 'NLE' for any of the rest of the courses. So National consideres NLE, PST, OLS (as needed) as "Basic Leader Training", which earns you the "Trained" strip

Seen them, been involved in them. In some parts of the country, the local lodges/chapters are very active in doing OA ECOH. Suggest you speak with your chapter/lodge about it. There are also scripts out there for OA-ECOH. They usually involve having Arrowmen show up as the four principles or the like.

"On top of telling me that a Scout had to be registered in both a Troop and Crew to work on Eagle he also said that they could not dual register and had to pay a fee for both programs." Do I need to point out he is again wrong??? The page on-line doesn't see to be there anymore. In addition to the resources others have mentioned, all take a look at the "Advancement Guidelines" book. They put out a new version each year. Your DE needs training in Venturing. Heck, there is even a video tape training aimed at the BSA professionals. (bet he's not seen it...)

Have never heard of this. Your DE is wrong, and it doesn't conform to what is in writing. In fact, the National Venturing Division had to post a clarification on getting Eagle in a Crew at the National site because of misinformation like this. A Venturer/Sea Scout can earn Star, Life, and Eagle in their Crew/Ship WITHOUT keeping their registration with a troop. National should NOT be rejecting any application because of this. They MAY have kicked it back for other problems on the application. In my area, we have a handful of kids getting their Eagle in their Crews, and I'm sure thats true in a lot of other councils.

"I don't know but maybe in Florida the Sea Scouts are more into scuba than we are. " In Florida, we do have some "Scuba Ships". They ARE Sea Scout Ships, tho. They use the program, uniform, advancement. They just spend more time with scuba then the average ship. But they also boat and sail. How 'traditional' a Ship is will vary. I know some ships down here who have all the youth in white crackerjacks. Others will instead have them in whites more like the adults wear. Others may create their own uniform. BUT, they follow the program (sail & boat and work on advancement).

Sea Scouts are a program within Venturing. Because of this, every Sea Scout Ship is a Venturing Crew, every Sea Scout is a Venturer, and every Sea Scout adult leader is a Venturing leader. Every Sea Scout can earn all the Venturing awards in addition to the Sea Scout awards. Every Sea Scout adult goes thru the same training as all the other Venturing adults, but they ALSO have their own training. That said, its NOT proper to call Ships 'Crews'. It doesn't go the other way. What defines a Venturing Crew to be a "Sea Scout Ship" is that they are registered as such: specialty code 1208. If you want to use the Sea Scout program, then register as such. If you just want an 'aquatics' Venturing crew and not bother with the Sea Scout program, don't be a Ship. MOST Sea Scout ships will use the Sea Scout uniform and use the Sea Scout advancement program. some do not. Who makes this decision? Typically its the CO & adults organizing it. They tell the kids they are recruiting that "you are joining a Sea Scout Ship". Thus, if they don't want to be in a Ship, they can go join a Crew.

LongHaul pretty much gave the answers I would have.

purcelce- Incorrect terms are incorrect terms. You know the correct terms, so use them. Just because its easier to say doesn't make it right. It's one thing to slip up verbally, we all do that. It's another when its on an written forum that others will read and think that's ok.

"One of the area Venturing crews is doing the RT flag opening Thursday. The published uniform for the youth is "Green Venturing Shirt, blue jeans." Their call!!! The Venturing specific NLE training told me so!!! " Sorry, but that's not corrent and Venturing Specific training doesn't say that. The green venturing shirt, per the venturing literature is to be worn with charcoal gray pants/shorts. (the source of pants/shorts need not be BSA Supply). Some misread the 'crew picks their uniform' to mean that it's anything goes. It isn't. If you wear the green shirt, you must following BSA insignia policies regarding insignai placement, plus you wear charcoal gray pants/shorts. Not jeans, not khaki, not BSA olive pants/shorts. I don't waste my time hasseling crews for doing that, but I'm also not going to say its ok.

"Maybe someday the written policies will change or modify slightly..... " That's already happened. It used to be only half of the eligable candidates could get elected in. Now, due to changes in the election procedure, its possible for all candidates to get in. If the election team is doing their job, if the scoutmaster is doing his/her job, and if the scouts take it seriously, there is no reason why those who should get it don't.

"FWIW Cabela's has some great trou and shorts that are a 96% lookalike to the overly expensive BSA Supply Corporation Venturing trou/shorts. " So does Bass Pro Shop. But with Venturing they don't have to lookalike. So long as its the right color (charcoal grey) that's fine. IN VENTURING, we don't have to get National Supply's pants/shorts!!!

All- please stop confusing Venture and Venturing. They are 2 separate programs. "Basically, a crew patch is the same thing as a patrol emblem, but green." Uh, NO. A crew patch can be up to 3in in size. Its meant to represent the crew, have a crew logo, along with the crew number. It need not be green. Don't limit yourself by thinking about a patrol medallion. It can be much more elaborate.

"I would like to run VLSC training in the Fall. I have never seen this offered by our council. I didn't know there was a patch for this. " Its double. I did this in one council I work with. In another they've been doing it at the council level for several years. (crews are too small to do it themselves). If possible, see if you can run VLSC with several Venturers as your participants this summer, with you and a couple of other adults being the staff. Then in the Fall, have those Venturers be your staff. While VLSC is running, get all the adults over in another room/area and run them thru adult basic training.

"The three colors of the Webelos stand for yellow/gold (cubs), red (Boy Scouts) and green (old exploring, probably means venturing now)" Actually, that's not quite right, but I don't blame you for getting it wrong. For decades world-wide, the following colors have signified the different program divisions established by B-P: Gold- Cubs Green- Boy Scouts Red- Senior Scouts/Rovers These colors were used in the BSA. You could see the use of these colors in the choice of the wool garter tabs and in the service star color background. (Senior Scouts/Rovers was replaced by Explorer Scouts, forerunners of Explorers). When the red wool jac-shirt came out, it was originally ONLY for Explorers and their leaders. Boy Scouts got a green jacket. The use of the red jac-shirt for everyone came later. Nowadays most think of red= boy scouts and green= Venturing, due to the colors picked for the shoulder loops. (which confuses people when they look at the service stars). On the new W.D. Boyce unit organizer knot, you will see the background has gold, green, and red, to represent Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Venturing respectively.

"I would do this, too - But our Council Camp does the "patch with segments" and, having been doing this long enough, the patch has an impressive amount of segments... and they've sort of become permanant on that shirt... I'm NOT sewing them on again..." Ok, understandable. "Many scouts and scouters in the council wear temporary insignia either over the camp patch (in a holder or w/ a button loop, or they wear temporary insignia over the right pocket." Temporary insignia over the right pocket is totally wrong. As noted, that space is reserved for Jamboree patches only. Wearing a patch in a holder or w/ a button loop (in my area almost all OA patches have button loops) over the right pocket is a very good solution. "As I said - I know the UP folks will have a heart attack reading this... " Whatever. I'm a sticker for proper uniforming, but I think the solution of wearing it in a holder or with a button loop on the right pocket is just fine.

I asked my source at the National Venturing Division. There is nothing new coming out for adult Venturing Training. They ARE working on 2 new training programs for Venturers (youth), one on mentoring, the other on teaching others. When they spoke about this at Sea Base, they hope to have patches similiar to VLSC for them.

The term "totem" refers to the Lodge's emblem, which ALL Lodges have. Now, are you asking if other lodges have any additional special items they wear? Yes, several do. Some of these are carryovers from non-OA honor groups that preceded the OA Lodge, usually bead necklaces and the like. I know of one lodge (Buckskin Lodge?) that has a special buckskin 'tab' they hang from their right pocket button. My home lodge has a very simple bead necklace system. You get a white bead at tap out, blue after ordeal (white & blue are our lodge colors), red after Broterhood, and clear purple after vigil. You also get a german silver vigil triangle with your name and date. Each chapter has a color. Lodge committees each have a color, as do other lodge awards.

The topic of allowing Venturers to be elected in the OA is one that can only be answered/approved by the National OA Committee. The Nat OA Committee is a subcommittee of the National Boy Scout Division. Since the Boy Scout Division is NOT a co-ed youth program, they really can't allow the OA to be a co-ed youth program. We can discuss/argue on whether or not the OA should allowed Venturers to be elected in. The decision is made by the above groups, and presenlty they aren't going to change. Aside. When I joined the OA, it was the National Honor Camper Society. Today is "Scouting's Honor Society". If its scouting's honor society, how can it exclude a large portion of scouting (Venturing)?

I have to agree with CNYScouter. Why a "Naval Explorer Post"? It seems that someone didn't know about the 1998 Venturing/Explorer split. They should have formed a Sea Scout Ship. Sea Scouts have a relationship with the navy. AFAIK, Explorers do not. As for Air Scout Squadrons, Air Scouts/Explorers in the traditional sense are no more. They are Aviation Explorers under Learning for Life. I have heard of CAP groups organizing Venturing Crews focused on aviation. Keep in mind this. Vocational units should be Explorer Posts, mainly because most (Law Enforcement/Police, Fire/Rescue, etc) are chartered to government bodies. Avocational units should be Venturing Crews.

In my opinion, Venturers have no business attending NYLT. NYLT is aimed at training boy scouts. Venturers are not boy scouts. Now, some may say that the leadership skills learned in NYLT may be applied to Venturing. While that is true, the delivery method used in NYLT is to organize the boys into patrols within a model troop. As Venturing crews are NOT organized this way, this would cause confusion from Venturers not familiar with troop operations. And how are they to handle female Ventures??? Venturers have their own leadership development training in VLSC, Kodiak, and Kodiak-X. They are better off having a council-organized VLSC that trying to get Venturers to go to NYLT. I wonder what kind of answer I'd get if I asked the guys at National that question??

"I guess the issue I have with the DE is that I have never said that I wanted to start a Venturing Crew that does sailing but have stated that I wanted to organize a Sea Scout Ship." Yup. Some DEs don't get it. "I just think its easier from the start to adopt the Sea Scout uniform than to try and get the Ship to agree to it in a few months. " I think that's a good idea. "I really like to see the BSA put out some training on how to use a Venture patrol in a troop. Many of these adult Troop Leaders see a Venture Patrol as becoming an "elite group" or do not want to have older scouts seperated as it takes leadership away from the Troop. So they want to form a seperate group (a Venturing Crew) to give the older scouts a place to go." If they don't want their older boys to go off in a Venture Patrol, etc, how is forming a Venturing Crew any different? As to training stuff on Venture Patrols, no, there is nothing from BSA National, but several other people (myself included) have created PPT presentations on Venture Patrols. Several can be found at USScouting Service Project website.

"(2) On the pocket I sewed a Philmont "Dollar" patch with 5 segments." "I was an Explorer in the 50's and earned all the patches that requiered earning. " Did you earn those segments? There were requirements for them. Personally, I would have gotten a 1950s Explorer shirt off eBay, rather then using a Venturing shirt. I have gotten several that way.

"I have lost count the number of times I have heard from Scoutmasters/Troop Leaders My/Our troop wants to start a Venturing Crew. Most adults in Scouting see Venturing as Advanced Boy Scouts and not as a stand-alone program. " Yup. that's a big problem. Another adult on-line calls this "Advanced Boy Scouts with Girls" (ABSWG) to label this misunderstanding about Venturing by too many [boy] scout leaders. "One of the first things I remember the trainerssaying was that the most successful crews stand on their own and most do not have strong ties to a Scout Troop. " Double yup! A BIG problem with this troop-associated crew is that a LOT of restrictions are put on this crew that prevents it from REALLY succeeding on its own. Boys can't join unless they are a specific rank (usually Eagle), the crew exists to support the troop and NOT for the Venturers, etc. etc. "Some of the things that I liked about the Sea Scouts were that in the requirements, getting a uniform, what active means, and pulling your weight financially are outlined and not left up to interpretation. " Ha! Some of the same things I've pointed out. Active requirements are built right into the requirements (no nonsense about 'be active', but gives a percentage), etc. "I said that it was suggested we adopt the Standard Sea Scout uniforms (Blue Work/Dress White) as we will need these if we want to attend any Regional/National Sea Scout events, which is one thing I want to encourage. At that time the DE stepped in and said, No, the Ship could design its own uniform and did not have to use the standard uniform. When I spoke with him afterwards and he just brushed it aside saying that we could adopt the standard uniform later. I think having an Activily uniform designed by the Ship to use when the members are sailing and other activities is a good idea, but my feeling is that if we are going to be a Sea Scout Ship we should use the Sea Scout Uniform. " The DE is kind of right. Sea Scouts are NOT required to get the uniform, BUT as you noted to him, you WILL be required to have it should you attend Regional/National events. He seems ignorant of that. I know the National Sea Scout Committee is really big on Sea Scouts going back to the traditional uniforms (but I am very annoyed with them making certain changes to the traditional uniforms!) You idea of an activity uniform (t-shirt & shorts I guess) are good. My experience is that the Sea Scout uniform is WAY less expensive then any BSA uniform. Down here in Florida most Ships have all the adults in whites (you may see one or two in tans, maybe the same number in blues at formal occasions). Most of the youth are in the white crackerjacks OR in whites similiar to adults (used to be ok, but not any longer, but so what). For activities, its usually Ship t-shirts and shorts. Get with The Ships Store (http://www.ships-store.org/) for your insignia and uniform supplies. You may be able to get uniform parts locally, but insignia you are better off with them.

Am a little dubious of this. Venturing and Boy Scouting programs are not the same. How is having Venturing leaders be training alongside SMs?? Doing 'break outs' for Venturing doesn't work. Also, while I recommend OLS for Venturing leaders who crews DO camp, and who have not taken it while being Boy Scout leaders, to require it for ALL Venturing leaders is ridicilous. Not all crew camp! I have some sources I'll be asking about this.

"But I do wish, as I have in the past, that the BSA could have been just a little more original when they picked the name... " Uh, I've been saying that from day one. Actually, before day one when I learned about the coming program and what they were going to call it and the units. Since I had worked with a Venture Crew in my old troop before I moved on to Exploring, I knew the potential name confusion.