emb021

No, you can only join the OA Lodge in your council. That is a rule. Your other issues indicate some problems with communication within your lodge. This is something that faces many lodges and may be compounded by your location in your council. Here is some information that can help. The OA Lodge is, like your troop, a dues-paying organization. While your boys may have joined the OA, they need to pay their yearly dues to the Lodge to remain active and on the rolls. Most lodges will have a website where they have information on events. Many lodges will mail out regular newsletters to members giving them updates on upcoming events (some may instead email them out). A few may also mail out reminder cards to members about events. But if you are paid up on your dues, you will miss out. Most OA Lodges are organized into Chapters. Most Chapters will coorespond to your districts, and have monthly meetings, usually at the same time/place as your district roundtables. Find out if your Lodge has chapters, what chapter you are in (and who is the chapter chief and chapter advisor), where/when it mets, and make sure your OA members attend. When you join the OA, most lodges will include in their fees for the event the dues for that year. So if you have your Ordeal in, say, spring, you are 'dues paid' until the end of the year. Most lodges have dues on a yearly basis. Most may not send out a dues notice to members, expected that they pay their dues at the last couple of events of the year (say your Winter Fellowship or end of year Banquet). Also, most lodges when you join may give the new members a plan book with information on the lodge, with the name & contact information on the Lodge Officers (elected youth) Lodge Adviser(s) (appointed adults), Committee Chairs (appointed youth), and the dates for the upcoming years events. Most lodges have planned out ALL the events for the coming year, so you should know well in advance this information. Better people to speak with about this problems is the Staff Adviser (professional in council appointed to the lodge), Lodge Adviser (volunteer adult in charge of lodge), Lodge Chief, your Chapter Adviser and Chapter Chief. Going to the Scout Executive may not be as useful as getting with these people. (but your council office SHOULD be able to give you the contact info for the above adults). Another thing is prehaps your Troop should have one of its Arrowmen being a "Troop OA Representive". This is a new troop office position (can be used for Star/Life/Eagle advancement) that represents the OA within the troop and make sure the troop knows about events in advance. (on OA dates, when I was a troop leader, we knew our Lodge dates at least a year in advance, so when our troop did its yearly planning we knew when all the OA events were and we had no problems scheduling around them. Getting these dates were never a problem. They appeared on our council calender that goes out in August/September. Does your council put out a calender (or have one on their website). Does it include the OA events? ) hope this helps.

It goes in your patch drawer. Or you could put it on the right pocket, like other 'temporary insignia'. Its not a National patch, so it can't be used to replaced a National patch like the trained patch. Many councils put out different things to recognize those who earn degrees at the University of Scouting or College of Commissioner Science programs. Most aren't official or 'allowed'.

"Think of your church youth program. While each Sunday School (Patrol)class may do there own activities from time to time, the total youth group participates in the same program over all. I don't know of a Youth Minisiter who runs two totally seperate programs for the Jr high and Sr High crowds. week night Bible study, summer camp, choir trips, mission trips, etc. are for the whole youth group." Its been awhile since I was involved in church youth groups, but all of them were pretty much focused on high school age youth (14-17). One of the reasons that many also form themselves into Venturing Crews. Why break this into two groups? But its different then extended that group into middle and elementary school groups. BTW, by limiting your high adventure trips to First Class and 13, you ARE basically limiting it to the older youth (basically the kids who would be in a Venture Patrol). (aside, in case this isn't clear, grades 1-6 is elementary school, 7-8 middle, and 9-12 high school.)

"Our District is seeing boys who earn Eagle at 13-15 leave within a year and go to Venture. I think that once they have Eagle they don't see much challenge ahead of themselves and want to move on to something new. " Actually, they are leaving to go to Venturing. Venture is the in-troop program. Nothing surprising here, scout leaders had seen this from the begining. Hence the creation of new in-troop programs within troops (troop bands, advanced camping, etc). Over the years BSA National has created several older boy programs to keep the kids in the troop (while also creating programs outside the troop to both attract older youth who had never been in scouts, as well as atleast keep kids in scouting). Who knows how many locally created programs existed as well? This has lead to programs such as: * Sea Scout Crews within the troops (30s & 40s) * Explorer Scout Patrols (30s & 40s) * Explorer Crews in the troop (1950s) * Senior Scouts (1960s) * Leadership Corps (1970) * Venture Crews/Varsity Teams in the troop (1980 & 90s) * Venture Patrols in the troop (2000s) To claim that the same program can appeal to boys 11-17 is a bit of a stretch. Keep in mind that you are speaking of boys in elementary school, middle school, and high school, all in the same group. I think ANY scoutleader who has been successful in keeping his old boys in the troop is doing something different for those older boys to appeal to them and keep them in (more then just demanding they have to stay and lead the younger kids). At a minimum, he is making use of a Venture Patrol or something along those lines.

Let's see if I can understand things. You volunteered to be on day camp. Was told you would be on staff, but was not told what specifically you would be doing. (am assuming that last part) When you checked a week in advance you find out you aren't on staff, as they are full. I've sort of experienced that, but part of the problem is you probably didn't find out up from what you were going to be doing. A vague 'being on staff' is no guarantee of being on staff. You got to make it clear what you can do and what you will be doing, especially if you are a newbie to the staff. And most, if not all staffers, would be hearing for their 'boss' several times before the event to make sure they will be there, are prepared, etc. Hearing nothing from the event people is NOT a good sign. I've had other problems with being a staffer, but they were more along the lines of trying for years to BE on staff for events and being ignored or rebuffed, or being on staff for several years and suddenly get dumbed by the new person in charge (who had been on staff and moved up to the position). I've never experienced scoutldr's experiences. I've come to events and wound up helping out and being a defacto staffer (great way to 'get your foot in the door' with some groups/events).

"Not true. The Boy Scout program is designed for boys 11-18." True. The BSA has stated in writing that the Boy Scout Program was designed for boys 11-13. The requirements were written and geared to that age level. "Older boy" programs started to spring up early on in scouting when leaders discovered that boys got bored with scouting around the age of 14/15. Even B-P noticed this and started to create new programs for them such as Rovers, Sea Scouts, and Senior Scouts. In most countries, their Boy Scout program ends at around age 14/15, at which point boys moved to the next program (Venture, Senior, Explorer, whatever it may be called), just as Webelos move to Boy Scouts. This avoids the issue of 'competing' programs. Keep in mind that Venturing was designed for a certain age group, not necessarily for 'older boy scouts'. It can appeal as much to youth who have never been in scouting, as those who are bored/tired/whatever with their present program.

"emb021, So, I guess we can put you down in the adult led column? " No. You mis-read my posting. I believe in boy/youth-led scouting. "Leadership development takes time, experience and maturity that begins at 11 thru 13, but bears its best fruit at 14 and beyond. Does that mean you can't offer responsible fun and adventure to older scouts? No." My comment was directed at the many scout leaders who seem to think that the ONLY purpose/job of their older youth is to be the leaders of the younger. There is almost NEVER a mention of offering "fun and adventure to older scouts". To do so would distrack said older youth from 'doing their job'. This is one of the big problems for "Troop associated Crews". They almost NEVER get to do 'their own events' because that ALWAYS takes second place for their main (only) purpose of leading the younger boys. "What does a crew offer that a troop can't. Lack of the patrol method. Gets you away from younger boys. Allows for coed. Less emphasis on advancement. Crew created uniform. Handguns. Are there activities that a crew can do that older boys in a boy led troop couldn't plan and do? No." There is a lot more to Venturing then that. The Boy Scout program was designed for boys 11-13. Venturing was designed for older youth (14-21). It's about giving the youth a program appropriate for their age/interest. "Lack of patrol method". Patrol method is just a team of people. This exists in Venturing thru the officer system and the use of committees within the crew to plan and carry out events and activities. The organizational model used by Crews is based on the model the youth will (and probably already do) encounter in other clubs they may be involved in at school and in their future. "Gets you away from younger boys." More precisely, it means working with their peers, of both genders. This is important. "Allows for coed." Also important. The 'relationship' that the boys and girls have in crews is different then what they encounter in school and most other groups. "Less emphasis on advancement." At one time Explorers had advancement like Boy Scouts. And it was heavily promoted. Then thru research, the BSA found that kids at that age are NOT that interested in advancement. Thus they dropped Explorer advancement. Venturing advancement is different at many levels. Its more open-ended. It has a teaching element. We don't push it because that's counterproductive. Many boys that come over from boy scouting are tired of the push to get Eagle. "Are there activities that a crew can do that older boys in a boy led troop couldn't plan and do? No." But do the older boys continue with these activities over a longer period? Or focus/specialize in them? NO. This is what happens in Venturing. You want to focus on Indian Lore? All the time? You can do that in Venturing, but not in a troop. Want to focus on religious life? All the time? Again, can do this in Venturing, not in a troop. Troops don't 'specialize'. That's not what the Boy Scout Program is about. "In fact, if the crew provides service to packs and troops, how is that different than expecting older boys in the troop to serve younger boys? " Because its on the VENTURER'S TERMS, not the scoutmasters. The older youth decided how, when, etc, they will provide the service. PLUS, they STILL get to do THEIR own activities with THEIR peers, and not be told they CAN'T do that, cause they have to be the leaders for the younger boys. You need to learn what Venturing is really all about. You seem to have just 'read the brochures' and not really found out what it is.

"scoutingagain" said a lot of things I was going to say. I'll just add a few. I've seen this topic come up occasionally in on-line formats. Personally (as a former Boy Scout leader and current Venturing leader), I get pretty annoyed with it. The general 'attitude' I see put forth by the scoutleaders is that somehow the only 'purpose' these older boys (14/15+) serve in their troops is to be 'leaders' for the younger kids. Its like they are supposed to be slaves to the scoutmaster and be there only for these younger kids. Nothing is said about what's in it for these older kids. Its all about the 'needs' of the troop and these younder kids over any needs of the older kids. No wonder you loose them to Venturing (or worse, scouting). Venturing allows these older kids to do stuff that appeals to THEM. And being leaders/mentors/nursemaids to a bunch of younger kids is not something that appeals to most older kids (read what "scoutingagain" said). Yes, the Venturing program does encourage these youth to give back to the packs and troops, but this is on THEIR terms, not the scoutmasters. And they still get to do the stuff they want with their peers. Its views like this that I really wish the BSA did what most scouting associations have done and just end the Boy Scout Program at age 14 or so.

"A pack cover that still fits over a pack engorged with food is also important. " FWIW, my pack cover for decades has been a plastic garbage bag, slipped over my pack. I make two slits for the shoulder straps. works fine. I use a second bag to put my pack in, when I set it down at the end of the day (first bag goes over this). This keeps the belts, straps, etc dry from the ground. Never had a problem with this method. I've always used the more heavy duty bags. I've also always kept all my small items in my pack in ziploc bags. Again, this I've done for decades. This ensures that items are easy to find, dry, and clean. Again, as to 'long sleeves'. On my trip to Philmont as a kid my clothing consisted of shorts, t-shirts, sweater, and a rain jacket (which I found wasn't as waterproof as I thought...). No long pants, no long sleeve shirts. My sweater kept me warm in morning/evenings. My legs don't get that cold, so wasn't a problem. The only time I had to wear jeans was when we were spar pole climbing, and I borrow a crew mates pair. FYI- weather was dry first half of week, then rained & hailed mid-way, then cold drizzle for almost rest of week. I had no problems, really. HOWEVER, everyone one is different. Just because it worked for me doesn't mean it will for another.

Don't know of any websites, but would think the website listing in the Ranger Handbook &/or the Field Book would help. The book "Roughing it Easy" should give you a lot of ideas. I used the original editions as a scout. (the author was a mother who got involved in scouting and really got into the subject). There is a new edition that came out a couple of years ago. Some ideas (which I recall from my days as a boy scout. Source for this was RIE, BS Fieldbook, Cooking MB booklet, etc): * tin foil cooking * using orange, onion, etc to cook (hollow out, fill with stuff, put on coals) * paper bag (strips of bacon on bottom, crack egg on top, suspend over coals) * bread wrapped around sticks over coals. My troop did this as our scout shop exhibit.

"However, the discussion was about training that was either Wood Badge or SM basic training. Scottteng said that in his council it would not matter which one it was, because the training would only count if taken within 2 years time. " I think he mispoke. Only the certification courses need to be re-taken every 2 years or so. You can't 'retake' WB every 2 years, and its a bit overkill to expect people to retake SMF, et al.

The section I quoted is from the National website: http://www.scouting.org/venturing/about/newcrew.html on starting a new crew/ship, which gives a basic 5 step process. I would instead recommend you use the more detailed process from "How to Start a Sea Scout Ship" document I gave you the link for. As mentioned, it also gives you some excellent meeting plans and the like.

Get the PDF I cite above. That is a document on starting a Sea Scout Ship. Use it. It even has suggested meeting plans, etc.

If he only did one weekend of camping, he did not do Wood Badge (plus, if he did WB, were are his beads?). He did whatever was the Basic Leader Training for Boy Scouts was at the time, and if he hasn't taken the current stuff, he should re-take it. Uh, the comment about 'recertify' is about the CERTIFICATION type training. Training like New Leader Essentials, Position Specific, BALOO, Webelos Outdoor, SM Outdoor, Wood Badge, Okpik, Powder Horn is NOT certification training. Those are one time training, BUT if they go thru major chances and its been awhile since you took them, go thru them again. Certification training that you should retake are: * Youth protection training (can be done on-line) * Safe Swim Defence (do on-line) * Safely Afloat (do on-line) * Climb On Safely * Trek Safely etc These can be done on-line or a couple of hours live. Won't kill you to take them again. CPR is 4 hours and you have to do it every year for Red Cross.

Have you read the outline from National on starting a Crew/Ship? This is step #5: "The first meeting is held, involving young adults, the adult committee, and selected consultants. Adult Advisors share the program plans with the new Venturers (youth) and discuss member involvement and leadership roles through the election of youth officers." The Sea Scout Manaul has a basic outline of officers and their duties. You could do elections now for your 'interim' officers that would serve from now to September. Said officers would have the responsibility of working with you and your Mates to put together your Ship Bylaws and other documents (which need to be voted in by all the youth), etc, setting down meeting and events and the like, then have elections in September. Also read this document: http://www.scouting.org/venturing/support/resources/pdf/25-352.pdf Hope this helps.

FYI- I've gone to Philmont twice as a participant. Once as a kid with the basic expedition, once as an adult on cavalcade (horse back). FWIW, am from Florida. 1. I've never used rain pants. I prefer raincoats that are long enought to cover my shorts or ponchoes. I see many that do the same, some also using garters to keep the rain off their socks/out of their shoes. If these boys are used to doing the same, they should be ok. Frankly I've always thought people who used rain pants to be a bit weird. Never felt them needed in the weather we have here (or at Philmont). Now, if its COLD and rainy, yeah. 2. on my first trip I had t-shirts and a sweater, no long-sleeved shirt. I was fine. for cavalcade, we were required to wear a long-sleeved shirt on horse back. So long as the kid has a sweater or similiar warm clothes, he should be ok without long-sleeved shirt. (not sure why he won't take one) 3. can't answer. 4. For what? warmth or protection? Was never cold enought that I felt I needed them, never did anything that I felt I needed the protection. 5. Bring soap, a biodegradable one like Dr. Bronner's Magic Soap.

"Not sure about the elitism part" the charges of elitism grew out of aspects of the old WB that have gone away concerning stuff like who gets to be on staff, who get to even attend, etc etc. "but I've had a couple of WBers counsel me NOT to go to WB. The reason? "It's just a rehash of the same stuff you've gotten in all the corporate leadership training seminars you've been to. Save your $200." " Uh huh. Well, maybe someone should tell your company you can save them sending you to $2000 corporate leadership training seminars by sending you to $200 WB. While the leadership skills covered in WB is the same leadership skills covered in such courses, its ALSO delivered in a program aimed at scout leaders, with a lot of scouting specific stuff. And its a great way to met and get to know a lot of fellow scout leaders. "Not sure if this was the "old" or the "new" course. But the comments and $$$ and time out of a busy schedule (1.6 jobs, scouts local and district, and family) make me wonder why I should. If BSA thinks that WB is so vitally important, why not make it free of charge? " Uh, and who will pay the cost of food, supplies, etc, from the course??? There is no free ride in the BSA. Even if you attend events like Jamboree, etc as a staff member you pay your way. If money is a problem, see if your council has a WB scholarship.

You're probably going to have to have it made, because National Supply has no NYLT Staff items for sale. Some suggestions: * NYLT Staff patch (make a version of the NYLT patch with the word "Staff" on it) * NYLT Staff neckerchief (if these are popular in your area. get one embroidered with the NYLT log, course info, and STAFF on it) * NYLT Staff hat (if you do a course hat, make one for the staff). * NYLT Staff nametags. nice ones in plastic or wood, such as those from the Quartermaster Store: http://www.quartermasterstore.com/ Hope this helps

Some things I've seen: one-on-one recruitement at scouting events by WBers with those who have not gone thru the course. Letters from SE to those who haven't attended, asking them to. If cost of the course is making it hard for some to attend, work on creating a WB scholarship to help defray the costs (this is a more long-term thing). Also encourage units to help cover the costs to get their adult thru the course (perhaps contingent on them completing their tickets). And you can always look toward surrounding councils as well. There may be scouters in the other councils who haven't been able to attend their council's event because of scheduling conflicts (and since many council typically use the same dates each year, this can be an on-going problem for some).

"While there I was told there is another Ship being chartered in the council. Well, they are not starting out as a Sea Scout Ship, but a Venturing Crew, but are being registered as a Ship?" This doesn't make much sense. EVERY Sea Scout Ship IS a Venturing Crew. What makes a Venturing Crew a Ship is that they are registered as such (#1208). Now, part of why a Crew is registered as a Ship is that they are going to be using the Sea Scout program (advancement program, organization, training, uniform, etc). If you aren't going to be using the Sea Scout program, WHY register as a Ship? (if a Crew decided they later on want to be a Ship, fine, change it later). If true Sea Scouting is growing in your council, may come a time when you'll need to organize a Sea Scout Squardon (Council Committee for Sea Scouting) to give the Ships (and program) PROPER support.

They have been speaking of this program for, what, two years now? Full info at this site: http://www.soccerandscouting.org/ I recommend you take a look at it. Think it will answer your questions. Its not a 'transitional program'. Its incorporate cub scouting with soccer, and yes, its aimed at Hispanic youth. No idea what the 'church Upward' program is, so no idea how original this idea may or may not be. FWIW, am not involved in cub scouting, and don't claim any knowledge other then wait i've read on this program.

There is a pamphlet available called "The District" that explains the basic district structure (this may very from district to district). District Commissioner is responsible for all the commissioners in the district. He/she, not you, is responsible for making sure every unit has a unit commissioner, and that these commissioners are supported by ADC, get trained, etc. Not sure if Roundtable Commissioners fall under them as well, but if so they need one for Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and Venturing Roundtables. District Chair is the top elected volunteer in the district. (equivalent to the Council President). He/she is in charge of all the various district committees: Training, Activities, Membership, Finance, etc. Chairs the District Committee, made up of the heads of all these committees, plus the OA Chapter Advisor, etc. Its these district committees that deal with fundraising, training, district events (camporees, cub events, etc), and all the rest (most of these committees have counterparts at the council level. depending on how your council is organized, the council ones just coordinate the district ones, or the council ones do the job instead of having district ones). The District Chair, District Commissioner, and District Executive make up the "District Key Three". They usually attend council level meetings with their other district counterparts to plan/organize/coordinate things council-wide. does this help?

I was under the impression they had discontinued the various Cub Scouter training medals, but could be wrong. AFAIK, they still make the Scouter's Key and Scouter's Training Award. District Award of Merit has no medal. Never did. It has only the plaque and knot.

"While I do not see the elitism or arrogance in our WB'ers that others see in theirs, I can understand why some believe it exists. I have heard the same kinds of comments from people in other venues I volunteer at. " "The problem is that it is often much the SAME people who do the volunteering for EVERYTHING. So, once you get involved, you end up working with the same bunch over & over & you get to know them pretty well. Then, when someone new comes along, they see this bunch together and they feel like the bunch is a "clique" that they are not a part of." This is a problem that can be true within any organization. My guideline on this is "how easy is it to become a part of said group?" Do they welcome new people who want to come on board and help out, or better yet, do they SEEK out new people? Or do they turn away all inquiries of assistance because they are 'full', 'have all the help they need', or they 'just don't know you/don't trust you/have no idea if you can do the job [and just don't want to waste the time to find out]'? [i've experience both attitudes both within and outside of scouting, btw] First group is not a clique. Comradery/fellowship/espirit de corps does not a clique make. The second group is most certainly a clique. In the past, too oftern WB groups got like the second group. Today, most should be like the first group, but there may be a few hold outs (or a few too like the second). The same could be true of any group within scouting: training teams, event teams, groups within the OA, etc.

"What say ye Wood Badgers? Is there any truth to his remarks? " Don't know. May depend on his council. A little history. Over the decades, WB has changed, both in the content and how its been delivered/managed. In the past, much of how it was managed has lead to a very real level of 'elitism'. In the most recent revamp of WB (the current "21st Century WB") did many things to eliminate this elitism. IF council followed thru on this, it should have changed. To make this clear. Originally, WB was intended for council-level trainers. WB was only available at Schiff and Philmont, so who could go was limited. Over time, cluster councils and council could give WB courses, but it was limited to Boy Scout Leaders, was by invitation only, etc, so it was hard to get into. Also, it was hard to become a WB staff member. National made it very difficult to bring on a new person as a staff member, and typically the position of Course Director might rotate between 4-5 people in a council. Today, that's different. Courses are REQUIRED to have a percentage (25-30% not sure) of NEW people on staff. This forces those running WB courses to look for new people. Plus, once you are a course director, you're OUT. Can't be on staff anymore (except in very special cases, and not as a course director). Also, as WB is now open to ALL Scout leaders, most councils are running 1-2 courses a YEAR and want to be sure to have a full course. So any scout leader in any program who has completed basic training can get in. WB has in most councils become a scout fellowship (which it always should have been), not a 'good ol' boy network'. Councils may have a one-a-year event for WBers, but much of the elitism is gone. Now, this may still exist in some councils, but in most of the ones I'm involved in, its gone (or was never that big). Personally, I've never seen any WB who was arrogant about being a WBer. I've always worn my beads because I'm proud of them and the work I put in to earning them (I have 3, btw). But I've never made a big deal of them.