emb021

"Gee emb021, you make it sound so tawdry" If you are going to do Mic-O-Say, I think you should call it "Mic-O-Say". Sadly, it appears that the MOS types have copyrighted their terms etc (ok), but then won't let anyone else use them (?). Makes it near impossible for additional, official, tribes to be formed. Thus people have to establish different named groups using the MOS program. I'd rather see multiple MOS tribes. (FWIW, am not a Tribesman)

tribe of manassah From reading the discription it appears that its a copy of the Mic-O-Say program.

Would like to see such in writing. But does anyone find this surprising? the OA has been the BSA's official honor society program for several decades. When they made some changed to the OA a couple of years ago to change it from the 'honor camper society' to the BSA's 'honor society', I had to wonder if something was going to happen to the various non-OA groups, especially in the councils where there is NO OA.

"Tribe of Manassah"?? What group is that? Never heard of it and its not on David Eby's large list of scout honor societies.

All- Prehaps I can add something to this discussion. Southwest Florida Council happens to be my home council. I have been part of that council since the 70s as a youth and later an adult. I haven't been as tuned in to things going on in the council in the last few years. Camp Flying Eagle is one of the oldest scout camps in Florida. they recently held a 75th anniversary celebration, and the council used this as a way to solicite funds for the camp. When this camp was found and purchased, the local council (Sunnyland) did not own it! Instead, the local scouters formed a separate organization for the sole purpose of owning the camp. they were worried that the council might go under, and that National would sell the camp. (back in the 1920/30, most councils weren't very stable and came and went). When Sunnyland went under in 1995 and had to be taken over, there was a choice between 2 local councils. They decided to go with SWFL, in no small part because they were told the council would keep and maintain CFE. Since the takeover of Sunnyland, there have been rumors of a sale of the camp. There are several problems with the camp. Issues with the encrouchment of neighbors, issues with vandals coming into camp off the river (the camp is one the lower manatee river), etc. Most of the talk about selling the camp almost always included the council getting a new camp. More recently, the council leased part of the camp property to a group to establish their own camp (Camp Dream Oaks). I believe this is mentioned in the recent articles. This group claimed they would put in improvements to the camp that could be used by both their group and scouts. This is how they sold themselves, but I've heard of issues where they haven't followed thru with recent promises. So I am sure that some scouters are not too trusting of this group's claim that if they owned it, the camp could still be used by scouts. There has been a lot of concern in recent years that the council would sell off the camp. This is a very emotional issue. I was a bit surprised to read in some of the these recent articles that 'Red Dog' was president of the 'Manatee Boys Development Association', the original group that owned the camp. You see, I had heard that the group (which, as I noted above, was pretty much founded by those early scouters just to own the camp) had pretty much gone defunct, and some had re-grouped it for the sole purpose of turning the camp over to the council, and letting it go under. So I wonder what really happen. And its a bit much to claim that 'Red Dog' (or any scouter) being the president of the association is some kind of 'conflict of interest'. The group had always been a group of scouters owning the scout camp! So, even if you have your issues with "jkhny", a lot that he is passing on is true. Plus, you can also read the articles in the newspapers. He cites an article in the local Bradenton paper, and I know of about 3-4 in that paper on this isse. the Wall Street Journal reported on the matter, as have other Florida papers.

Sea Scout Ships (unlike VenturING Crews) are subdivided into (boat) Crews. The organization of Ships is very similiar to Troops. Explorer Posts used to follow the same style until 1959, when they went with the general 'club style' that Venturing follows today. Boatswain is like the Senior Patrol Leader. Boatswain's Make is like the Assistant SPL. Each Crew within the Ship is lead by a Coxswain (sometimes called Crew Leader) and Coxswain's Mate (Assistant Crew Leader). Each crew is usually 6-8 members. This is one of the reasons why Sea Scouts have their own training program! (Sea Scout Leader Specialized Training, Sea Badge, SEAL, etc)

"It just plain ain't polite to accost a Scout from another unit and tell him "what must be done." The BSA isn't the military. " Who said anything about accosting someone? And no, the BSA isn't the military. HOWEVER, we are a uniformed organization, with guidelines on how the uniform and its insignia are to be worn. Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts should be having uniform inspections, usually conducted by the Unit Commissioners. (have to take a look at the uniform inspection forms???) When I explain to a scout (or scouter) how things are to be properly worn, I never take such an attitude. I point how how things should be worn, and where they can get the information on this, if they don't believe me. Many times I have scouts (and scouters) ask me about some of the unique items on my uniform. I have a few items that are a bit rare or rarely seen. I have no problem with explaining what the items are, and use them to promote some programs.

"I simply don't believe it is appropriate for someone to tell another person from another unit that their uniforming is incorrect, if they haven't asked for your help/opinion. That's the key part (which was left off) - if they haven't asked. If they've asked for your help/opinion, then that's an altogether different kettle of fish, but if they haven't asked, then don't be surprised or offended if they tell you to mind your own business. If they're indignant, its likely because they think you're being rude, not because they think they're wrong." Sorry, but that's silly. No one is going to ask others 'is my uniform correct?', because most people probably think it is correct. Its not helped that the Boy Scout Handbook no longer has the uniforming information it used it. Most incorrect uniforming is caused by 2-3 things: IGNORANCE (many people don't know where things go, so they try the best they can), MISINFORMATION (someone one told them incorrectly where it goes), ARROGANCE (they KNOW they shouldn't wear it, but they do anyway). When I see scouts doing some basic bad uniforming, I usually gently point this out. Stuff like: inproper service stars, multiple quality units, patches in totally wrong places, etc.

""WHY THE EXCLUSIVENESS OF SELECTION?" "I'm sure Sea Scouter's who are more experienced and have more time in than I have might be able to shed more light on this. "But I think space, time and skilled adult leadership have a lot to do with it. " It does. While I don't have first hand knowledge of SEAL, I know Sea Scouters who are course directors. Some facts. There is limited space on each course. the normal course size is 6-7 Sea Scouts. This is because they expect the job duties to rotate amound the Scouts so that each day of the 7-day course they have a different role. There are usually only 4-5 ships/courses per year. PLUS, you can't have youth from the same ship on the same course. You need to learn to work together with the rest of the group, whom you probably don't already know. So, there are basically about 35-40 slots TOTAL per year. Hence its very tought to get in.

"DOES ANYONE KNOW OF ANY OTHER PART OF THE US THAT WAS RUN FROM NATIONAL (NOT REGION/SECTION) AFTER 1939? " I'll have to check. There was a area in Florida that was run from National briefly due to some local problems. Basically, the scouters in one county didn't want to be run by the local council they were assigned to, and really couldn't afford to be their own council. We did have a period in the 20s or so when a lot of areas in Florida (single counties or large cities) decided to split off an be their own councils, then found out they couldn't do this financial, and wound up re-merging. I wonder if the same thing happened in other states.

In the US, most non-profit organizations hire professionals to run their daily operations. These people used to be called 'Executive Secretaries', now usually called 'Executive Directors'. They usually run the organziation's office, do fundraising, deal with mail, etc. They do this ON BEHALF OF and FOR the volunteers who run/own the organization. If they don't do their job, they're out. Professionals in the BSA should serve the same purpose. Sadly, it seems that over time its become that the professionals feel they run the show, and not the volunteers. The professionals many times fill a board with the people they want, 'fire' volunteers they don't, etc. A recent set of documents from National on 'volunteer-professional' relationships is written from the point of what the volunteers must do to work with the professionals, with no concept of 'the professional works for the volunteer' in it. In fact, I think the document frowned on that attitude. Part of this problem was caused by the fact that James West gave the COR voting rights in the BSA, and NOT the rank and file volunteers. In most non-profits, if you are a dues paying member, you usually have voice/vote (or you pick those who vote for you). Professionals should not be allowed to select the membership of the executive boards of councils. (also, exec boards should not be choicen solely from a slate of nominees. Nominations from the floor should be allowed, and EACH member of the board should be voted on individually). Professionals should only be doing things (approvals, 'firing' volunteers, etc) ONLY when acting upon the approval of the council executive board. I'm reminded of my Fraternity. We have a National Office with about a dozen employees. They work for US. Every year, the executive director is reviewed by our National Board of Directors, who decide if we keep him or not. Same for the other top employees. Everything he does is on behalf of the BOD. Only the BOD has the power to remove a person from membership, etc. Sadly, unless there occurs a radical organizational change in the BSA, I don't see this being fixed.

"Do Scouts in the Venturing program work on Merit Badges like Boy Scouts do?" There are no Scouts in the Venturing program. Those youth involved in the Venturing program are called 'Venturers', not Scouts. Others have covered the rules on Venturers earning merit badges and other Boy Scout advancement. Typically, most crews will not spend their program time working on merit badges and other Boy Scout advancement, tho members of the crew might spend their time doing so. hope we've answered your question.

LongHaul: "Who exactly is this "we" to whom you referr?" We = Arrowmen, members of the OA. "The basis for my statement was the information recieved by our delegation to a NOAC." So. They are mistaken. "Where are the rules made and/or changed? National Order of the Arrow Conferences." No. NOAC is not were rules are made/changed. That is done by the National OA Committee, which mets in December. NOAC is the venue were some of these changes (like the logo change, change from being 'national honor camper's society' to 'national honor society of the BSA') are announced. I have been to almost all NOACs since 1990. There has been no policy change with wearing the sash. " Another thing that comes back from NOACs is the reminder that there are only two levels of membership in the OA, Ordeal and Brotherhood. I assume you meant to say you were a Brotherhood member who has recieved Vigil Honors. Many of us were upset when our registration cards stopped saying Vigil Member and started saying Brotherhood Member so I can understand your reference. " Hooboy. Sorry, but there are NOT 'two levels of membership in the OA'. I have never heard that stated. There is only ONE level of membership. There has been work to make sure that people don't think of Ordeal, Brotherhood, and Vigil are membership degrees or levels. I have never heard of Vigil Honor as being refered to as that. If your lodge is no printing "Vigil Member" on your cards, that's your lodge's decision. My lodge still does that.

No. There really isn't any provision to wear a CO patch on a BSA uniform. There is a provision for Venturing Crews to create a 'crew crest' to go on the right sleeve. This patch is supposed to represent the Crew, NOT the CO, btw. There are some rules on this patch, which are given in the Venturing Reference Guide.

"that being said, there is a way one can recognize a former Scoutmaster. its the Scoutmaster's (Scouters) Key Award (green & white knot), with the universal Boy Scout emblem pinned to it." There are specific requirements to meet to earn it. You don't just hand it out. Other recognitions that may be more appropriate is nominate the scoutmaster for a District Award of Merit &/or Silver Beaver. Its a mistake to assume those awards are ONLY for those at the district &/or council levels.

"The debate over whether OA sahes are only to be worn at OA functions has never been resolved in stone. When I got mine in the 60's it was clearly only for OA functions. In the 90's a group came back from NOAC and declared it was OK for general wear to promote active participation in OA. I guess it's become a local option. According to the Insignia guide it's NOT worn hung from the belt at any time. " Sorry, but as a long-time arrowman (and vigil honor member), I don't know the basis for this. We have always emphasized in the OA that the only time its appropriate to wear the sash is at OA events or at events in which you are doing something as a member of the OA. 'general wear to promote active participation' does not count! It usually means you are part of a special 'OA detail' at a ECOH or council event. As someone else has pointed out, the OA Lodge Flap & OA ribbon function as the day to day indication of OA membership (and general promotion of the OA). Wearing an OA activity patch (Lodge, Sectional, NOAC) I think is a better way to promote active participation then the sash ('hey, what is THAT neat patch?' 'oh, that's the patch for NOAC I just got back from. You could have gone too had you stayed active in the Lodge...')

National Supply makes some items. They have patches #10003 and a belt buckle #14203 (very popular, I hear). Am sure they can make further items with the NYLT logo for you. And you can always go to other sources for things like mugs, neckerchiefs, etc.

"I have seen patches on eBay made like the "TRAINED" strip which read "RETIRED", "OVERTRAINED", "UNTRAINABLE", etc., but these are unofficial and unauthorized for uniform wear." Actually, National DOES make a "RETIRED" strip. Its intended for retired professional scouters. Take a look in the Insignia Guide.

"I'm looking for information on whether or not my son can wear the complete set of rockers that he earned at the 2005 jamboree surrounding the jamboree patch on his uniform. Does anybody have a definitive answer for this? " Sure he can wear them! Why else were they made? That's the reason that the 2005 youth patch was made slightly smaller then the adult patch. This is true of all the rockers from past jamborees. I used to wear mine from 1981. By the way, you do NOT have to move the Jamboree patch & rockers to the pocket.

All- Since there have been some questions, here are the answsers. In Venturing, there is a 3 level series of leadership development courses for the youth, under the umbrella of "Nature of Leadership". VLSC (Venturing Leadership Skills Course) is the first level. This course is meant to be run by the crews for ALL Venturers, in a retreat format, and is many times run by district/councils. You can order the syllabus, #34340, from National Supply. Kodiak is the second level (tho attending VLSC is NOT a requirement). This course MUST be presented during a week-long or 2 weekend outdoor experience (doesn't have to be high adventure). Course can be given by crews or councils. You get the syllabus from the Venturing Division. This really should be given by either those who have gone thru the Kodiak/Kodiak X Course Director Course or have themselves gone thru a course. Kodiak-X is the third level (you must have gone Kodiak). This course is given by councils in a weekend at their camp. Its not yet released. As with Kodiak, you get the syllabus from the Venturing Division, and this should be given by those who have gone thru the Kodiak/Kodiak-X Course Director Course or themselves have gone thru the course. Mention was made of SEAL. SEAL is the Sea Scout Advanced Leadership course. It is only offered to Sea Scouts of atleast Ordinary rank by the National Sea Scout Committee in about 4-5 locations around the country in the summer. This is because the course is presented during a week-long sailing trip. Hope this helps. there are fact sheets at the national site on these courses. also check out the Kodiak website at www.kodiak-bsa.org

"Wear Spoof patches if you wish, but don't be surprised if you are regarded as a spoof scouter as well" Hmmm. You remind me of the 'scouter' I saw at NOAC a few years back in which every patch on his 'scout uniform' was a spoof or silly patch. CSP, unit number, office patch, 'trained' patch, knots, flap, patrol medallion, etc.

"I attended the 81' Jambo and still wear my patch. I wear it for ME as it reminds me of one of the best expierences in my life." fine. do so. I still wear that patch as well. The issue of removing "jamboree patches" does NOT apply to the Jamboree patch itself. It refers to the OTHER jamboree patches, such as the JSP, Jambo lodge flap, Jambo troop numbers, and other patches relating to your jamboree troop (ie the office you held and patrol you were in). * Jamboree Patch. Wear it forever. No one should be hassing anyone who attended an old jamboree for wearing the patch. * JSP. Gray area. Per the rules you are supposed to remove the JSP and replace it with your current CSP. Most don't, and most people won't bug you about it. * Jamboree Region patch. Gray area. Few are really entitled to wear them either at the jamboree(ie those volunteering at the regional level at jamboree) or afterwards. Kids (and adults) who picked them up as souvenirs really shouldn't be wearing them. But again, what's the big issue. * Jamboree Lodge flaps. Gray area. Many lodges have a rule that you are supposed to be wearing only the current lodge flap. Others don't care. In some lodges, you'll see about 5-10 different flaps being worn. If the lodge leadership doesn't have an issue, why should you. (personally, I use velcro and only wear the current issue). * Jamboree Troop number. Sorry, but that troop no longer exists. You should have removed it and replaced it with your current unit number. Heck, I did that within a week of returning. * Jamboree patrol patch. Ditto. I did that within a week of returning. Then again, as SPL of my troop, I had no desire to be wearing a patrol patch on my uniform. * Jamboree Troop-related office patch. Ditto. I can understand unit leaders wanting their kids to have the correct unit numbers, patrol patches, and office patches. They shouldn't be worrying about the JSPs and Lodge flaps. And no one should think that you have to take a Jamboree Patch off.

"emb: Do you mean scouts? Scouters technically aren't supposed to wear their sashes, although you'll sometimes see one break his out for a son's Eagle COH or similar event. " Yes, a typo. I've never seen a scouter wear one, even at a ECOH. (probably many can't fit into on anymore).

"emb: Do you mean scouts? Scouters technically aren't supposed to wear their sashes, although you'll sometimes see one break his out for a son's Eagle COH or similar event. " Yes, a typo. I've never seen a scouter wear one, even at a ECOH. (probably many can't fit into on anymore).

Uh, its impossible to do the VLSC (Venturing Leadership Skills Course) in an evening or 4 hours. Take a look at the syllabus. You have about 9 hours of program, not including meal times, breaks. While I don't see a problem with one being run in conjunction with a weekend Venturing event, its shouldn't be short-changed by trying to cram it into 4 hours or so.