emb021

"Welcome to my world of "Educating the Public on Venturing". It's a slow process but people will warm up to it. " Your world? I think there are a dozen or more of us who have been doing this on-line from day one. We're getting close to the 10th anniversary of Venturing, and I've only seen a little bit of improvement.

First off, please stop confusing "venture" and "venturing". They are are 2 separate programs. Venture is a program for older boy scouts. It has nothing to do with Venturing. Vicky has given you the official line on Venturing uniforms. It can be found in the Reference section (a kind of dictionary of Venturing) in the Venturer Handbook and the Venturing Leader Manual. Who is saying that they should be in uniform? Some district/council people? Point out to them the policy. That said, I personally recommend that Venturers and Venturing adult wear the green & gray at events in which BSA Uniforms are expected, such as district and council scouting events (Scout Shows, Training events, OA events, etc). Since your crew already has the green shirts, whats the big problem with wearing them? (please understand that you do NOT have to get the BSA's gray pants/shorts. ANY source is fine!) Note, I said 'recommend'. If a crew shows up in their crew uniforms, I am not going to focus them to get the green/gray. I have found that many Venturers who are involved with other scouting programs usually get the green/gray to better fit in.

"Several scouters, includng myself, are EMT's in my District, and we do First Aid at District/Council events. We all wear Pennsylvania EMT patches (1 wears a Medic patch). I earned my EMT when I was 16, and I still wear the same shirt as I did when I was 17. My patch is above my right pocket (with room for a nameplate) - this is the standard position for Jambo patches." I'm not a UP, but, as you note, it doesnt go there. A more appropriate location is the RIGHT POCKET. "At least one was Staff at Jambo. His is on his Left Breast pocket. I will probably be moving mine there sometime soon (next time I've got to sew patches). As a Leader, there isn't any emblem on the left pocket.. it is blank. Seems like a good place for me. " Its not. Use the RIGHT Pocket. The left pocket is were we wear the Powder Horn medal. Also, at District/Council events, I wouldn't be upset if you made up armbands to wear with your EMT emblem on it.

Several things. CNYScouter- please get the program names straight. Sea Scouting is part of the Venturing Program. We have Venturing Crews and its Venturing Leader Training, etc. "Venture" is a program within Boy Scout troops. Has nothing to do with us. Please don't use the terms interchangably. SR540Beaver- that organizing a Venturing Crew is from National. However, its important to realize that the program of a Venturing Crew can be from a wide range of possibilities (outdoor? sports? art&hobbies? religious?). Not so in Sea Scouting. A Sea Scout Ship follows the Sea Scout Program. (otherwise, why be a Sea Scout Ship? Be a Venturing Crew). There is some leeway with a Ship's program (I know of Scuba Ships, but they still do the Sea Scout program, wear the whites, etc, they aren't Venturing Crews that do Scuba). As to other comments. A dozen is a great start. Be sure you have the adult leaders to support it. Ships are organized into 6-8 person Crews, so you can be starting with 2 crews. You should have a youth to be outside the crews to be your Boatswain (ie President). Sea Scout adult leaders need to take Sea Scout Officer Specilized Training after they take the Venturing adult training. That's a 3 hour course given by Sea Scout leaders that explains the program. I recommend you contact your regional sea scout people to see if someone can come in a do this training for you, to get it going in your area. [ie, after YOU'VE been training, you can do the training] Yes, sadly, there are a lot of scouters who don't understand boy-lead. Venturing is more youth-led then troops are. I usually compare it to (better run) OA Lodges. Please note I said *better run*. I don't get were this idea of shutting down for the summer came from. I was used to it as a kid in Cubs, and it was a shock when I joined a troop and we kept meeting in the summer. Yes, some kids will be gone for a couple of weeks, but not everyone. Plus, summer time is your time for SUPERACTIVITIES! Heck, even Cub Scouts now promote summer time activities with special awards and such.

Yes, kind of ridiculous. I wouldn't expect this from a troop just starting, other then dates like council events, etc. That said, you COULD provide them something along those lines. Find out what regular Sea Scout events occur in your region. Pick several that are nearby that would welcome a new ship attending. Also, lay out a basic three month schedule. Yeah, that might all get chucked when the youth come on board, but it will give something for them to start with and shut-up the idiots like that.

Also, another thing to keep in mind is the time committement for WB Staffer is high! This can cause some not to step up and be staff. I turned down a second round of being on staff because I knew that I would not have the time needed to do it. I'd like to do it again, but don't know if I'll have the time I feel is needed in the next year or two. I know that on the course I was on, we had one day meetings, once a month for about 4-5 months prior to the course (and I missed 2-3 because of when I came on board, so it might have been more like 6-7 months prior). We used these to make sure everyone knew what was going on, practice our presentations, etc. As a Troop Guide, I think 2 of those meetings were just TG meetings. All TGs had to give 2 presentation just with their patrols and we had to give our presentations to the rest of the TG for critque. With the other meetings, those giving presentations had to give them before the other staffers for critique. We had a staff weekend about a month before the course. Ran thru the whole course with everyone. This was also done to make sure we knew were everything would happen, etc. Also, during this weekend we had our annual WB Breakfast, which we charge $10. All past WBers come. Proceeds go to our WB Scholarship. We even had a couple of beadings, recognized the WBers who have 'gone home' in the past year, etc. For both WB weekends, staffers had to be up a day early. So instead of, say, taking off Friday, we had to take of Thursday, and several of us got up to camp on Wednesday night. Plus we'd have a brief staff meeting after the candidates went to bed. I'm not sure off hand what the staff/admin guide mandates as a minimum for staff development. I've heard that some council do more then the minimum, which can be good or bad (good- better prepared, bad- time committement turns more people away). This can also mean that some get turned down because they pick their staff so far in advance. My home council seemed to pick them atleast a year out, so I never could find out who the next course director was and get my name in. (its annoying to ask to be on a course almost a year out and get told their staff is all picked) With my current council, I got picked for staff about 5-6 months out, and even then there seemed to be a little bit of flux (1-2 people being moved around, finalizing staff, etc). [That last bit was kind of annoying. I wanted to have my first staff experience in my home council where I received my beads. I asked 3-4 CDs for a chance to be on staff, figuring that since I still knew many in the council, I'd get a fair chance to be on staff. Instead I got turned down repeatedly and told they'd already picked their staff. Talk about a GOB network. When I was asked by an old scouting friend if I'd be an 'alternate' for his course in my current council in case someone dropped out (he needed to be sure he met the 'new staffer requirement') I said yes, figured I'd never be asked. Instead I was asked. I had a great time and got to work with a lot of great people. I like to think I did a good job. During the years I kept asking to be on staff, the SE in my home council would send out letters prior to the upcoming courses, to get participants. I guess they forget I had already gone thru WB. After being on staff, I had hoped to get another letter to be a participant again so I could send him a reply telling him 'thanks, but no thanks, as I've been on staff'. Didn't happen. Oh, well. :\ ] (This message has been edited by emb021)

eagle-pete- Nothing is perfect. As you say, a CD must balance the desires of people to JUST get a third bead with those who are good trainers. A BIG chance from the old WB to the current one is that in the old WB it was almost impossible to get on staff, and Course Directors would routinely repeat as course directors. Under the new WB they MUST include a percentage (25% or 30%, not sure) of NEW people, which makes it MUCH easier to get on board as staff. Those that get on staff are usually those who have stepped up and become trainers for other courses. There IS a requirement that if you want to be on staff, you must have gone thru Trainer Development. And keep in mind that being on WB staff is NOT like being on staff for Jamboree or a Camporee. WB staffers are TRAINERS & PRESENTERS first and foremost. Not everyone is good at this. Now, there are some positions on the course (QM area and a couple of others) that don't relie on this, but even the QMs may be asked to present something. Sadly, it can come down to how your council deals with WB. If they view WB as an exclusive club, then they will make it artificially hard to get on to staff. Others councils will take a more fair minded attitude that they want to find good new people and give them a chance on the course. So, how can you over this. I like the idea of the application forms so that future CD have a pool of people who have expressed interest. Again, some council do this. (but some don't, and I've seen some WBers who think that just asking to be on WB staff should somehow disqualify you). Maybe this is something that National should encourage (and prehaps they do, but we don't know as they would do this at the WB CD Courses) SueM- You may be Course Director only ONCE. You can be on WB staff multiple times. In fact, it's required to be a CD that you staff atleast about 3 times in different 'areas' of the course.

I was a scout during the 70s and don't recall any "World Wildlife Award". That was when the "World Conservation Award" was created. I think you are thinking about that award.

As to lodge flaps. Some lodges have rules that they want their members to be wearing their current flap. This is sometimes done to 'catch' people who don't bother to pay their dues (usually youth who join and never stay, but continue to wear the flap they got). Some members will wear older flaps that were flaps they received as youth, or flaps they think are nicer looking then the current ones. I've rarely seen people were flaps from previous to when they joined. Be aware that old flaps can be worth a LOT. The flap I got as a youth is worth too much for me to wear. I've also seen adults wear old style office patches and rarely youth wear old style rank patches. So long as they have the right to wear the patch (you've earned that rank, you hold that position today), so what?

The course was actually DESIGNED to bring a group of Venturers for the second weekend to work with the course participants. Typically, a Venturing leader is picked to oversee these youth, either someone already on staff or another person (who has already gone thru WB). Sadly, I hear that in some councils they get a bunch of arrowmen instead. Ideally, there should be several Venturing leaders already on staff and as participants. (PS Venture and Venturing are not the same. Venture is a Boy Scout Program for troops.)

"Part of my reluctance to attend Woodbadge was that I knew it to be advanced training and really didn't think I had the required skill base to attend. The only people in my District that I knew took the course were the old time experienced Scoutmasters. Don't see any woman in my District wearing the beads! " Hooboy. Two things here. First off. What do you need to attend Wood Badge? You need to have completed Basic Training for your position. And you should have a year or two of experience as an adult. That's it. It used to be with WB that it was very exclusive and elite. Course were given every few years, so just because of that you had to wait for your chance. When I went thru in 1988, my council held courses every 3 years. But things have changed, especially under the new WB. Now Cub Scout leaders and Venturing leaders get to go, along with the Boy Scout leaders and district & council people. Most councils run them every year (some twice a year). Because courses need to have a minimum, most are very eager to fill the course, and its very easy to get in. Got basic training and been in for a few months, and you can usually go. (personally I feel you should wait atleast a year before going. If one hasn't gone to WB within their second year as a leader, I would have to wonder why) Personally, from your comments, you are ready. Second. No female scouter in your district has gone thru WB!!! Ridiculous!!! Are all the old stuck-in-the-mud scout leaders scaring them away? When I attended WB back in 1988 (my course had several female participants, and atleast one female staffer). On a course I staffed in 05, we had several female participants, and several staffers. My current council has their current WB course directed by a woman (the first) and next year will also have a female course director. I guess down here in Florida we're a bit more progressive. Final, different note. Also down here we have informal Wood Badge Associations. These groups will work to establish Wood Badge Scholarships, usually with the sale of patches and such or annual fee breakfasts. WB doesn't cost too much down here (around $200 or so), so its not difficult to attend.

Sigh. Those who complain about others wearing the knots they are entitled to say more about themselves then they realize. And its not always positive. There are some who choose to wear all the knots they are entitled to. That's their choice. This can be positive or negative. There are some who choose to wear only some or certain knots they are entitled to. That's their choice, too. This can be positive or negative. There are some who choose not to wear any knots. Again, that's their choice. This can be positive or negative. I leave it to others to decide for themselves as to what they will wear regarding knots. I only care that they wear them properly. I have always felt it inappropriate to critize others for their choices as to what knots they wear. We may not know what their reasons are, and it might NOT be for show or to brag. Now, the original question was to having a Vigil knot. I am a Vigil. I do not see the need for such a knot, and I have yet to hear a valid reason for one. The purpose of knots are to display the awards we have earned or received. If there already exists a way to do this on our uniform, then knots are not needed. Thus, there is no need for Wood Badge knots (except for maybe Sea Scout leaders), Vigil knots, or Founder Award knots. Indication of receiving the Vigil Honor is shown by the wearing of the Vigil pin on the OA ribbon (or Founder Award ribbon). Some Lodges have a bead necklace program, which some have included some kind of vigil triangle (mine does with a german silver triangle with my vigil name & date). These serve the purpose for me of indicating I am a Vigil. Thus I have no desire for a knot.

"I have subscribed to the a Sea Scout discussion list (SeaScout-Net) but haven't received an e-mail from it in months. Which discussion board should I be on? " That list can be fairly quite, but its the main Sea Scout list. There is nothing stopping you from posting questions and seeing what answers you get. There is also the general Venturing list on Yahoo. "This forum has been about the only place I have been reading about Sea Scouts. " See the above. "I'll have to find out about the 501c3 status and see about my council accepting donations for the Ship." You don't want your council accepting donations for the Ship. They will keep the donations and sell them for themselves, which is why you don't want them to. Or they will turn away the donations, because they don't want the hassle.

"The rank pin is not the same as the mother's pin. The rank pin may be worn instead of the rank patch. This practice is rare but is correct according to the Insignia Guide." Correct. they are two separate items. The rank pin is larger then the mother's pin. Also, they are NOT to be worn on the expedition hat. Only the large First Class Badge or Universal Badge is worn there.

"I have been asked several times by folks in my Council to take Woodbadge. Maybe because they know I am an ardent Scouter and maybe just so that they can fill the quota for the course. " "My question. What will I get out of the course that will benefit my Troop? Right now, I am only concerned with helping my Troop become organized, focused and successul. " "I have been in Cubscouts for many years, Tiger thru Cubmaster. I've worked on the District level in traing new leaders and day camp. I've been to National Camping School so that I could deliver a Cub/Webelos Resient Camp (Director for 5 years)." "I've been to Scoutmaster training - all levels - and additional trainings. " Let me answer this from a different angle. You say you've been to 'scoutmaster training - all levels'. Well, if you HAVEN'T been to Wood Badge, you have NOT been to 'all levels'. BSA has organized its training into 4 levels: * Fast Start * Basic * Supplemental * Advanced I have to assume you've been to Fast Start (used to be videos, now mainly on-line) and Basic (NLE & position-specific), which means you are 'Basic Trained'. I also assume you've been thru several types of Supplemental training: Roundtables, NCS, etc. Others at this level are things like University of Scouting and Philmont Training Center. But what about "Advanced". Per the BSA, Wood Badge is Advanced training, and you haven't gotten it. (I also consider Powder Horn and Sea Badge as Advanced, but National doesn't.) "So, what will Woodbadge (that I will have to pay for myself) do to enhance the program I am trying to deliver to my Troop? " Unsure. WB is a leadership training course for all adults. Everyone gets different things from it, as everyone brings different things to it. For some, a lot of stuff they already have, but WB its a great way to recharge, connect with people around the council, and get you to do something new. I went to WB after being a Scout and Assistant Scoutmaster. I knew most of the scoutcraft skills stuff, so for me the leadership and meeting new people were what was important. I also got some ideas on how to better run our troop after seeing things at WB.

"No coin." Actually, AFAIK, the coin is called for in the syllabus. Its just that in my council, instead of using the one from National Supply, they make their own course specific one. Actually, with the increased popularity of 'challenge coins' amoung non-military types and geocoins, it should be fairly easy and inexpensive to have coins made.

Get on the Sea Scout mailing lists and get in contact with Sea Scout leaders. Most Sea Scout Ships have 2 chartering partners, the second being a 501c3 charatable org whose only purpose is to own the ships that get donated to the Ship. (for various reasons you do NOT want your local council to own your ships!) BSA has insurance that you can add your ships to for a small additional amount (based on the size of the ship). This is done through your council. Don't have first hand knowledge of how this all works, but I hang out with enough Sea Scout leaders to pick it up.

Check out the seascout.org website. Did you check with any US Power Squadrons in your area? They have a Memorandum of Understanding with Sea Scouts. Did you contact your Region Commodore for help?

In my area, the standard seems to be: * course t-shirt * course hat * course ceramic mug * course coin [instead of the generic WB coin at the end] (participants get the participant neckerchief, make their own neckerchief from cords, leather nametag) Many course directors will make up a staff ceramic mug to give to all the staff. On my course, the course director signed the bottom with his totem. There are also usually totem gift items during the courses from patrols and some staffers.

"One thing that these groups bring to the table that the Order does not: $,$$$,$$$.00. Our Council annually exceeds its FOS goals in both the community and family campaigns. Part of this is the scouting network that reaches across the Kansas City metro, called the Tribe. More than a few business relationships in this town happen because we wear hardway or honorary claws." I don't think that is true with the OA anymore. Now, this may very from council to council (and lodge to lodge). But as part of the new Strategic Goals of the OA put in place a few years back was that the Lodge was to help out the council financially. Now, down in my neck of the woods, this was no big deal. Many of the lodges around here already do this. * Lodges present James West Awards to members on an annual basis (1-2). This means $1000-2000 into the council endowement. * Lodges fundraise for their own campership programs to enable more youth to go to summer camp. * Lodges fund their OWN improvements at their council camps, improvement in the several thousand. I know of several camps in my area that have very nice camp fire areas (with lights, sound systems, benches, etc) due to the hard work of their lodges. So, a LOT of Lodges bring in money to their council. Now, is that true everywhere? I doubt it. May be why they added it to the goals, to get other lodges doing what some/many were already doing.

COHs should be held about 3-4 times a year. As I recall, my old troop did it around Dec/Jan, then toward the end of the school year (around june), then another toward the end of summer/begining of school. This way we could 'kick off' major parts of our year, and hit a time when there were enough awards to give out. We basically gave out the cards, passed out parent pins, and (as appropriate) swore in new officers. As to getting the patches. You should be able to get patches without advancement reports. Keep in mind that some kids may have more then one shirt. How can they get them without giving an advancement report. The policy of 'no patches with a report' is fine when you are trying to make sure units ARE turning in reports, but can be a pain other wise. My old troop kept a stock of skill awards and some rank patches (NO merit badges) on hand to give out for immediate recognition. We ALWAYS turned in our advancement reports, as that was when we got the cards & parent pins.

FWIW, some of the Jamborees in the past were bigger then the recent ones. Largest National Jamboree was the 1960 one, with 53,000+ people. Larger then the last one.

"Each camp is different, so it's not surprising that each camp would want a program tailored to them. The original purpose of any camp honor society was to entice Scouts to return to that camp each year. If the same program is available at multiple camps it defeats the purpose. " Well, if that were so, then we wouldn't be speaking of all these camps establishing groups based on the Mic-O-Say program. If you look at them, they are copying pretty much everything. The terms. The necklace and symbolism. I would have to wonder about the rituals.

"As to the alleged "problems" "* they are secret groups". No more so than OA, which of course is not a secret group either. " While the OA is not a secret group, my encounters with these non-OA group is they seem very unwilling to share info with adults that aren't part of their org. While I don't want to share OA 'secrets' with youth, as I don't want to spoil their experience, I am willing to explain in more detail about the OA. ""* they are too adult-run ". That's a common criticism I've heard about both programs -- and a common observation of many troops. " There is a difference between what a program was designed as and how some implement it. A scout troop is designed to be boy-lead. However, some adults short circuit this. The OA is designed to be boy-lead. Again, some adults short circuit this. My understanding is that MOS was NOT designed to be boy-lead. That adults in MOS have much more control than in the OA. Those with more first hand experience can confirm/deny this. "Neither of those observations are grounds for ending local honor groups. " Sorry, never said they were. They are reasons why some adults may not be sympathetic to these groups. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

"From my experience with Mic-O-Say and Mannaseh they'd compare very favorably with OA for "membership, leadership, and organization." " My understanding is that MOS and the various groups using the MOS program have a 'problem': * they are secret groups * they are too adult-run