emb021

Well, here is something interesting on neckerchiefs from the World Scout Jamboree. Most people at the Jamboree wore 2 neckerchiefs. Their countries (or country contingent) and their WJ necker. They wore these even when in 'class b' (t-shirts) or their work uniforms (many groups had their own polo shirts or t-shirts you would wear 'on duty'). Everyone at the Jamboree was given a WJ neckerchief. These had a color border that identified the person as a youth participant, contigent leader, IST, etc. This, along with your id badge was to be worn at ALL times to identify yourself. In fact, to get into the adult camping area, proper id/necker was required. Most people ALSO work their country (or country contigent) neckerchief along with the WJ neckerchief to identify what country they were from. There was a lot of trading of neckerchiefs (almost as much as trading of patches, etc). So any who thinks that neckerchiefs are rarely worn are sadly misinformed.

ALL Crews are 'special-interest'. Each crew decides what their interest is. In Venturing, there are 5 broad areas of interest in which a crew will fall into: * Outdoor/High Adventure * Arts & Hobbies * Sports * Youth Ministries * Sea Scouting Outdoor/High Adventure is by far the largest, and sadly, this means that most people think that Venturing is mainly that (kind of in the same way that career-oriented Explorer Posts overwhelmed other types of Explorer Posts before the 1998 split). There is a list over on USScouting Service Project site listing the various codes that Venturing Crews used to be registered under. That may give you an idea of the kinds of crews you could have. CNYScouter has listed several in his post.

I find the point of this thread quite puzzling. title of the thread: "Get a Life". this is usually a put down or insult of people by some who thing they are wasteing their time on something. Is that the impression you are trying to convey to us? That we need to 'get a life'? "Has anyone ever had a question answered when posting here? Does it just lead to more questions?" I don't think I've ever NOT seen a question answered. Was the answer what the questioner wanted? No, but that's what happens. Does it lead to more questions? It can if the original question is confusing or incomplete (as was yours in the thread you started). Thus people are forced to draw out further information from the original questioner. They can also come up if the issue is more complex then the original questioner thought or that answers given lead to further questions. But then, that's the nature of on-line discussion groups. "Remember, the program is for the Scouts, not the adults." Uh, yes, I think most of us are aware of this and agree with this. Is this yet another attempt at a put down?

ScoutNut pretty much hit them all. There are also: High Adventure Base participation patches (Philmont Arrowhead, etc.). OA Leadership in Service Award (yearly participation award) BSA Aquatics Instructor. Attending National Camping School entitles you to wear that patch. But its more of an attendence patch (similiar to 'earning' a camporee or training event patch). The Gold Hornaday award can be earned by Scouters (VERY difficult to get). CAN'T earn the World Conservation Award (only youth can). Not sure if adults can earn the Paul Bunyan Award.

"Why are they called "uniform" when there are so many options? Hmmmm?" Same could be said of the military. Each branch has there own uniforms, for different uses.

All- Hope I can add to this. FWIW, I've been an Arrowman for over 25 years AND been involved with OA Elections. The eligibility requirements are clear and set down in the OA Handbook and Guide to Officers and Advisors (GOA). They should also be stated in the FAQs at the National OA site. Just to be clear, at present, scouts may put down as many OA candidates as they want. The days of no more then 50% being allowed on the ballot (or getting elected) was dropped about a decade ago. One eligibility requirement is Scoutmaster approval. The SM must approve/not approve before the election is held. Its inappropriate for the SM to 'withdraw' his approval after the elections. OA elections are run by an OA Election team of mainly youth arrowmen (NOT the SM!), either organized by the lodge or the chapter. They should have a form the lodge uses, which they will record ALL the eligable candidates AND make it known to the scouts who the candidates are (write their names on a flip chart, have preprinted ballots, whatever). If the OA Election Team is doing their job, they should be able to clearly explain what the OA is all about and what the elections are all about and who the scouts should be voting for (the best scout or the scout they would like to camp with NOT the 'most popular scout'). But things don't always work out. The OA Election team along with the SM will tally the votes and record them on their form. This form will go back to the lodge so they know who got elected. At this point, its up to the SM to announce either to the entire troop or to the individuals who got elected. Or not. In the past you wouldn't know you got elected until you got tapped out (that's what happened to me). As the Ordeal would usually come some time after the Tap out, you would be informed of the Ordeal and how to prepare for it (and pay your fees, etc). While it may be a great thing to do elections (and Tap Outs) at Summer Camp (which happened with me), this is not always workable. In my area, some councils don't even run their own summer camp, plus you have many troops that don't attend their own council summer camps. Also, Ordeals are seldom held in the Summer. Thus you have OA elections at troops or council camporees, with tap outs at Camporees and other events, with Ordeals in the spring or fall.

"$175 to attend the Course Directors Conference, which started Friday night and ended before lunch on Sunday, did seem over the top!! " Wow. I spent $80-90 for a weekend CDC for PH/Kodiak that included stay at a conference center (bunk beds) and meals for the same time period. I thought that a reasonable cost, but I have seen weekend training events that cost more (over $100) mainly due to the conference center costs.

"What about MBCs(code 42 I think)? Say you are a Committee Member and an MBC, do you register as both? " You should check with your council. Many councils take the view that they want to have a list of ALL MBCs, even those who are already registered scouters. They do not take the view that being a scouter means you're automatically a MBC. Also, some want to restrict the number of merit badges an MBC can counsel to a set amount (5-10 or so). This way, the council can put together a list of merit badge counselors for all merit badges. Most councils will allow for 'troop only' (ie only known by and used by a particular troop), otherwise you will be contacted by anyone in the district/council.

"These are Venture Youth.... coed, less than 18 years of age." Please note epalmer84 post. Again, you're confusing terms. "Venture Youth" are Boy Scouts involved in a Venture Patrol within a Troop. Properly, they are called Boy Scouts. They are not co-ed. Venturers are the youth involved in Venturing Crews. They are co-ed and range in age from 18-21. Please don't call them 'venture scouts' or 'venture youth' or the like. Its important not to confuse 'Venture' and 'Venturing'. The terms are not interchangable. Adding to epalmer84's post, Venturers are supposed to be involved with the second weekend of Wood Badge, working with the WB patrols. Sadly, in some councils they instead use Arrowmen. They should be using Venturers, both boys and girls. Doing so makes a big impact on the participants who have little or no experience or knowledge of Venturing.

Wood Badge has been Wood Badge since day one. Wood Badge has existed in the US since the 50s. It has always been called Wood Badge (albert with quantifiers like 'Cub Scout Trainer Wood Badge', 'Varsity Scout Wood Badge', etc). Again, youth do not attend Wood Badge. So whatever course he went to as an SPL or JASM was NOT Wood Badge. It most likely was a junior leader training course and his local council called it 'wood lore' (just as many local councils call their JLTC or now NYLT courses something different like Eagle Claw, Pine Tree, Silver Acorn, Brownsea or the like).

Wood Badge was never called "wood lore" and it was never for youth members. A SPL or JASM would not be going to Wood Badge. Wood Badge has changed over the years. The course today is not the course that was offered 10-15 years ago. Originally, Wood Badge was a course for council-level trainers (1950s). Eventually in the 60s or so, groups of scout councils could offer it. In the 70s they finally started to add in leadership. By the 80s councils were offering it to boy scout troop leadership. The current course came out around 2001, as is aimed at Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and Venturing leaders.

Let's work on the terminology. Its not clear what you mean by "Venture Scouters" or "Older Youth Scouts". Are you speaking of Venturers, who are the youth members of Venturing (14-21)? Keep in mind that many of these youth have no prior scouting experience, and not all Venturers are knowledgable about outdoor skills. Are you speaking of the adult leaders of Venturing, Venturing advisors? Also, keep in mind that they may not have prior scouting experience or outdoor skills. Are your speaking of the adult leaders for a Venture Patrol? These people are just Boy Scout leaders. Those involved in Boy Scouts who are 18 or older are Scouters. Now, who might be good trainers for SME or OLS? Yes, Venturers who have excellent outdoor skills and good teaching skills could be excellent OLS instructors. The same could be true of younger scoutmasters IF they have outdoor skills.

FYI. This is now the rule. I went thru the prior Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge in 1989. I finally got a chance to be on Wood Badge staff for a 21st Century WB course in 2004. This past year or so, the rules for staff for the 21CWB course changed such that you had to have either participated or staffed a 21CWB to be on staff. Similiar rules were also going into place for Course Director. My course's course director had never been a troop guide on a 21CWB course, but the CD for the next year's course had to attend our as a troop guide due to the changing requirements.

Sigh. I might have mentioned this in this thread, but maybe it was in a prior one on this topic. When I joined the scouts (back in the 70s), we had the collarless shirt that works well with a neckerchief. My troop used as their standard one of the BSA 'kerchiefs (solid blue, as I recall). I personally never cared for the kerchiefs. I recall my slide would slip all the time. When I was a little older, I discovered they came out with collared shirts, so got one and would wear a bolo tie (preferably a scouting related one). I didn't get the Oscar DeLarente uniform until I went to the 81 jamboree. I seem to recall we turned in our collars to wear our neckerchief (yes, we had to wear the jamboree neckerchief at times). When I did Wood Badge in the late 80s, they again had us turn in our collars to wear the participant neckerchief. While this may have looked better then wearing the neckerchief either under or over the collar, it was NOT comfortable, so I didn't like it. At some point later, I think they dropped the practice of turned the collar under (is this allowed? I'm not sure). I think it interesting that in looking at the UK Scout catalog they show the kids wearing neckerchiefs at all levels of scouting. The neckerchief is worn with t-shirts, polos, uniform shirts, both under and over the collars. I am uncertain if they have any guidiance as to which is prefered, or if it just doesn't matter. Its going to be interesting to see things at the World Jamboree. The adult staff seem to be expected to wear a couple of neckerchiefs at all times. In fact, these neckerchiefs, along with our id badge, is what will allow us into the adult staff area. This appears to be a practice at world scouting events- using a neckerchief to denote participation in the event. As to rolling up the tips. I've seen this on occasion. Gives the end of the neckerchiefs a 'cut off' appearance. I have never understood the appeal of this, other then I guess some think it makes the kerchief look sharper.

I reviewed the Wikipedia pages for all the Republican and Democratic candidates. The only one who has any scouting background was Hilary Clinton, who was a Girl Scout (and Brownie). Doesn't mean that none of the reason didn't have an involvement, just that the info isn't there.

There is no prohibit for a Scoutmaster to also be registered as a Venturing Crew Advisor. The BSA recommends that a key unit leader not be a key leader of another unit. But its just a recommendation (big time committement to be a key unit leader of two units). A commissioner should not be a key unit leader.

There is no official definition of Class A, Class B, etc. When I was first introduced to the terms when I went to the 81 Jamboree (and have seen the terms used widely in Florida), this is my understanding of what consitutes them. Class A: *scout shirt (short sleeve is pretty much all you see in FL) *scout pants or shorts *scout belt (web or scouting-related leather) *scout socks (only important if wearing shorts) Optional: scout hat, jacket, neckerchief, bolo tie, etc. Class B: *scout t-shirt (or plain t-shirt) *scout shorts (never long pants) *scout belt *scout socks Optional- scout hat Switching from Class A to B was easy. Especially at OA events, Jambo, etc. We would wear a scout t-shirt under our scout shirts. Take off the scout shirt when not needed (too hot and this helped keep it clean until we really needed it), and we were in Class B. As these shirts had collars, you could wear a neckerchief or bolo tie. In my troop as a youth, we adopted an informal rule to wear bolo ties instead of neckerchiefs. My suggestion. Its the troop's rules (not National) on wearing neckerchiefs or not. If the troop determines that wearing the neckerchief is part of THEIR definition of 'class A', so be it. Its their decision. If the troop feels it can be either neckerchief OR bolo tie to be class A, again, its the troops decision. Its not these boys by themselves.

"** The Scout Handbook has less instruction on outdoor skills and games than the older Handbooks." I collect Scout Handbooks. I find the older ones PACKED with lot more information then todays. But then, the older ones had thinner paper, smaller type, fine detailed b/w line drawings. Over time they have gone to bigger type, less text and more pictures (with more and more in color), thicker paper, etc. I think its more a trend of what boys today expect. " "Scouting for Boys" became "The Handbook for Boys" became "The Boy Scout Handbook". Is that significant? " IMO, no. "** The "Field Book", which was a volume of advanced outdoor skills, is now more a manual of Junior Leadership Training. With my older FB I can identify trees, barbecue a whole ox, and pass the first Scout Ranks. With the new FB I can lead a trip to the Sierras. Is this better? " Again, I have the old Field books. I have to wonder if the changes in the Field Book, mirroring the changes in the Handbooks, is more due to the larger change in how such works for kids are done. Its part of a larger trend, IMO, and one I don't like. But its not solely the fault of the BSA, but them following this trend (instead of bucking it)

"** Rank requirements have been obviously eased, Frinstance, no signaling requirement for FC. (you find the others)." I don't see an issue with the drop of signaling. I would hope that most requirements are similiar to the old. Time change. "** Uniform in general is less military ( a good thing) but has lost it's practicality. Cuffs on short sleeves? Yeah, multi pockets on trou are better... " I do find that overall the uniform is less useful in the outdoors then in the past. We have been 'less military' in our uniforms since the 30s or so, btw. "** Upper rank requirements (S,L,E) have been "stream lined" with many of the E required MBs now required for S and L." Sorry, don't agree. Some E requirement MBs have ALWAYS been required for S & L. If you'd bothered to check, by and large the requirements for S, L, and E really haven't changed much in DECADES. "** The boy no longer has to plan for himself, what MB to earn, how to find a MB counselor, how to become a POR, etc. The Troop has in house MB counselors and planned MB sessions, on a schedule, that by necessity MUST lead to Eagle. " As someone else has pointed out, this is not a National program change, nor something that exists everywhere. This only occurs in SOME troops, not others. This is more a feature of troops that some call 'eagle mills', who seem to focus (too much IMO) on getting kids to Eagle.

You're not clear on what requirements this committee member is expecting in his book. For Life Scout or all his prior ranks?? If the first, it should be easy to do. This is important to show he's done his time in rank, held a leadership position (and what), what merit badges he is using, and done the scoutmaster conference. If its the second, I think thats unreasonable. Proof of earning the prior ranks should be his rank cards.

"Only adults have keys to the gear room/meeting place. Youth leaders don't." A CO may have an issue with non-member youth having keys to their buildings/rooms. Plus possible liability issues. So long as the unit adults are willing/able to opening up things for the youth, how is this an issue. When I was adult troop leader, I don't recall the kids getting their before the adults...

Down here in Florida, at least amoung the OA Lodges, what John-in-KC says of Class A & B is pretty much followed, except that Class B is always with scout shorts. You can quickly switch from A to B by just removing your scout uniform shirt (which is usually always worn over a scout t-shirt). Adding medals/sashes to class A makes it a formal or dress uniform, and is only done for formal events like court of honors, etc. I first learned these terms when I went to Jamboree in 1981, and certainly amoung most arrowmen in Florida, these are the terms followed. Usually you hear of 'class C', which is usually a short t-shirt with jeans for really grubby work or 'class z' for anything goes for really really grubby work.

Unit patches exist. They are kind of rare. Probably only seen a half dozen or so in the 30+ years I've been involved.

Per National policy there is to be only one lodge per council. The only reason Greater St Loius has two is that the council recently merged with another council, and for a short time are allowing both lodges to exist. This should be rectified by the 2 lodges merging.

"Aren't local lodges allowed to make by-laws? " Its "bylaws". One word, no hyphen. Yes, lodge can and should have bylaws. They are properly called "Lodge Rules". Keep in mind that lodges are NOT independent bodies. They are subsiderary groups of the council, and must follow national and council policies. The Guide to Officers and Advisors (GOA), which is available for download at the National site, provides a basic template for Lodge Rules. Please note, that part of this template is NOT to be changes by lodges. This is MAINLY the parts dealing with membership selection, as well as Brotherhood and Vigil selection. These are clearly to state (as has been quoted) that the lodge(s) must follow the policies stated in the National OA documents. This is why CalicoPenn and others have stated that this lodge's bylaws are in violation of National policy.