emb021

"To the consternation of others, Im here to point out that while there may be 38 opinions on how to change a light bulb, BSA has already figured out the most effective way of doing so and it may be found in the book. " Because you failed to provide me with the number of said book, have not shown me the book, or even gotten the book, came to my house and bet me senseless with it, I deny that such a book exists. If in the fact the book does exist, I will say that the method given in the book is just a guideline and I am in no way required to follow it. And so what if I don''t want to follow said guideline? Are the Light Bulb Changing Cops going to get me?

The proper combination of loops and office patch most certainly DOES "shows were they are at in the scouting program" If you hold multiple positions (yes, it happens) then someone may, at different times, wear different combinations of loops & office patches. For instance, if an assistant scoutmaster is also a Chapter Advisor, he ideally should have (at least) two shirts. One with his ASM patch and troop number, which he would wear red loops with. The other having his chapter advisor patch (and no unit numbers) and silver loops. He would wear the appropriate shirt depending on which role he is playing. A lodge officer typically does not wear silver loops. There are no official office patches for them to wear, so what are they going to wear on their left sleeve? Now, I do see some Lodge Chiefs wearing silver loops and the Council Committee patch, which is appropriate, because in many councils the Lodge Chief is automatically part of that group (or is it the Council Exec Board? I don''t recall). But this not extended to the other lodge officers. A better idea might be to ask your lodge on what policy, if any, they want lodge officers to follow to indicate who are the lodge officers at lodge functions. There are several options here other then wearing silver loops, such as a special patch to hang from the right pocket, or a special nametag or the like.

"Also, as was stated before, the only non-BSA awards authorized for uniform wear are the religious medals/square knots. " Sorry, not true. There are the many Community Organization Awards which are all non-BSA awards and all approved for wear on the uniform. As far as I know, there is no prohibition to wearing the many historical trail award medals and patches, all of which are non-BSA awards. Foreign events are all non-BSA awards, but you are allowed to wear the World Jamboree patch as well as these others.

"P.S. emb021 - it says right on the Historic Trails Award application that, "Embroidered and leather awards are not worn on uniforms but may be attached to tents, packs, blankets." " I was not speaking of THE Historic Trails Award. I was speaking of the many many historical/hiking trail awards out there that have patches (usually small and intended for the right pocket) and medals. These are usually aimed at scouts and other youth groups. Some may have a scouting connection (offered by a council or unit or scout leader), others not.

"I think it is about these scouts not liking other scouts telling them what to do. They labeled it as hazing and that got their parents all in a tizzy. Probably the same kind of kids that don''''t have to do chores around the house either." Sadly, I''ve seen this attitude as both a scout and a scout leader. While SPL in my troop, I had to deal with a kid who felt I ''couldn''t tell him what to do''. Only his parents could do that. (not sure if the fault is the kid or his stupid parents who go with this ''only we can tell you what to do''). Had some similiar problems while an adult scouter. Had a kid who had zero kitchen skills. Why? At home he didn''t help his mom in the kitchen, that was his sister''s ''job''. (wonder what he will do when he goes to college, etc, and mommie isn''t there to cook/clean for him?). He also had the ''only my parents can tell me what to do'' mindset as well.

There are also Wood Badge Scholarships. In several councils I am part of, we have them. The money for the scholarships comes from annual WB reunion breakfasts, and the sales of WB memorabilia. Helps cover the cost. Also, some outside groups might have them as well. Believe AFL-CIO does. $200 for a week of training is very reasonable. Keep in mind this covers a week worth of meals, training materials (handouts, etc) and other items. Staff also kick in.

"And they may be worn on the Scout uniform, unlike awards offered by outside 3rd parties. " All the various trail medals and patches are largely put out by 3rd parties and I don''t think anyone says you can''t wear them on the scout uniform.

"Has anyone seen or heard of a scouter who is registered in both a Pack and a Troop wear BOTH red and blue shoulder loops." I''ve seen this on occasion, and it looks stupid. I wish people would stop this, along with wearing patches/pins on the loops or making their own unique loops (mainly see this with Venturing people who think they are allowed to. they aren''t). What Scoutnut says is the correct answer.

I don''t turn on my tv in the morning. My car radio has mysterious died on me the weekend before, so I really had no idea what was going on until I go to work. Were I work, we have several tv setup in the corridors, usually with various company announcements and the like. All had CNN running on them, but I really wasn''t paying attention. When I got to my desk, I found out what was going on. My company let people go home early if they wanted to. My fraternity was holding its Rush that week, and 9/11 kind of messed things up. We coped as best we could, but it was hard.

The Scout Hymn Ralph Reader Now as I start upon my chosen way, In all I do, my thoughts, my work, my play; Grant as I promise, courage new for me To be the best, the best that I can be. Help me to keep my honor shining bright, May I be loyal in the hardest fight; Let me be able for my task and then To earn a place among my fellow men. Open mine eyes to see things as I should, That I may do my daily turn of good; Let me be ready, waiting for each need To keep me clean in thought and word and deed. So as I journey on my chosen way, In all I do, my thoughts, my work, my play; Grant as I promise, courage new for me To be the best, the best that I can be. May the Great Master of All Scouts be with us until we meet again.

One size fits all does not work with communications. You need to use them all to ensure the info goes out. websites (make sure they are up to date. nothing is worse then a site announcing an ''upcoming event'' that happened a week or two ago). newsletters- both emailed out and mailed. post cards- great reminders for upcoming events email reminders of events phone call face to face handouts/fliers dispite all this, you will STILL get people who ''didn''t hear about X''.

Several of the BSA resource materials show diagrams of candleholders and the like. Tablecloths are usually standard stuff.

"Reading some of the posts tonight, there is alot of discussion of the BSA and OA going coed in the future. Some think that it is ineveitable for survival. Istrongly disagree!!! I believe that the changes that are being made, the watering down of the origins of the BSA (ie outdoor skills) it what is hurting us. I still remember that comercials on TV as a kids about the BSA...lots of action, outdorr skills...that is what fired me up!!!!! " Marktrail- you are speaking of two different things: The BSA going fully co-ed The BSA weaking the Scouting program. Two different matters that are NOT inter-related. Going co-ed does not mean that the BSA has weaken the scouting program. I recall the many ''issues'' that would occur when the BSA opened up the last 6 adult positions to women, how scout troops would be ''sissyfield'' by women scoutmasters. Didn''t happen. I don''t believe that if we go co-ed that these programs will be weaken. What is important that people (including you) learn what scouting is really all about. Read B-P''s Scouting for Boys and his other works. learn and practice what scouting is all about.

"A Scouter wears the loop color of the position of his primary registration." I believe they stopped that nonsense. You wear the loop color appropriate for the position on your sleeve. If you are wearing a troop leader position patch, you wear red loops. If you are wearing a district/council position patch, you wear silver.

The 'Centential Unit Award' thing is the BSA's replacement for the Quality unit award program for 2007-2010, to lead up to the 100th anniversary in 2010. The BSA did not bother to make the Centennary of Scouting items available in the US (tho I see that a few councils did this on their own). How many councils promoted the Scouting Sunrise event on August 1, 2007?

At this point, I think most councils are in the same state: none have probably put any thought into what they are doing. Frankly, am a little disappointed that the BSA has by and large ignored the 100th Anniversary of Scouting that is THIS YEAR. Some councils seemed to have done something for this, but others...

All- While there are many who would like to see the BSA go co-ed with the Boy Scout and Cub Scout programs (and I've been told that the BSA has the plans in place to make this happen), there are many who do not want to see it go co-ed. It is these who prevent these changes from happening. The OA is part of the Boy Scout Program Division. Any attempt by the OA to go co-ed is prevented by the National Boy Scout Committee. We down at the lodge/chapter level can argue back and forth about the merits/issues of going co-ed, but its not going to happen so long as the NBSC prevents it. I am very much aware that Scouting co-ed in many parts of the world. I was aware of this before I attended the WSJ this past summer. But the fact remains that it is incorrect to claim that the BSA is one of a handful of holdouts that is no co-ed. There are, in fact, several that are not co-ed. Here is the data from WOSM: "Of the 155 National Scout Organizations, 122 belong only to the World Organization of the Scout Movement (WOSM), and 34 belong both to WOSM and to The World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts (WAGGGS). "Of the 122 National Scout Organizations which belong only to WOSM, 95 are open to boys and girls in some or in all programme sections. 20 are only for boys. All 34 National Scout Organizations which belong both to WOSM and to WAGGGS are open to boys and to girls." As noted, the BSA falls into that group of "95 open to boys & girls in some or all sections". The BSA does not fall into the 20 that are boys-only (lot more then '3 or 4').

"What I can say, is I have been part of several international scouting committees and BSA is like one of like 3 or 4 other countries that are not co-ed. If I were you I would ask why? Why have all the other countries become co-ed?" Sorry, but this is incorrect. There are many more then '3 or 4' other countries which are not co-ed. Also, as far as WOSM is concerned, the BSA is co-ed. They do not distinguish between NSO that have some programs co-ed and have all programs co-ed. As Venturing is co-ed, the BSA is viewed and listed as a co-ed Scout Association.

"I think a region patch, those patches identifying region personnel, are different that those used to identify participants in an event from a particular region, like the Jamboree. Two separate patches IMO." Well, they are not quite two separate patches. For the most part, its rare for regions to put out patches to identify participants to an event from that region. I've only see those with the last few NOACs, and saw some from the WSJ. By and large, these patches go on the right pocket. Several will have button loops, to kind of 'make that clear'. (I've also always gone with the rule that if a patch is issued with a button loop, that it should not be sewn down. Use the loop and then swap out for another looped patch). However, for the National Scout Jamboree, Regionals had for a very long time issued Regional NSJ patches, usually in a size/shape very similiar to the regular regional patches AND with the obvious intention that they be worn on the right sleeve. However, who could wear such patches really was restricted to regional personnel, as well as those adults serving in regional positions at the jamboree. Not for participants to be wearing (most were too big to go on the right pocket, so that location is precluded. There is a rule that patches worn there can not exceed the size of the pocket). Now, for the most part these Regional items have been made available to anyone who wanted them. In fact, its been easier to get them then in past years. At the 1989 Jamboree I had to trek to every region and subcamp HQs to obtain the items they put out. (Western Region apparently refused to make theirs available to non-WR people). In subsequent Jamborees (I guess someone realized they could make money from them, along with the subcamp items), they made them available at a specific Trading Post, and at the last couple of Jamborees, one could order ALL the regional and subcamp patches you wanted in advance. With the wider availablility of these items, you have more and more scouts thinking they can add these to their uniforms, along with their Jamboree CSPs, troop numbers, etc.

"I'd never heard of the "Tribe of Micosay", even though I'd been in the movement over 30 years." As noted, MOS only exists in 2 councils, so that is not surprising. "And in other areas of the country, Scouters have little or no knowledge of the OA, even though it's THE official BSA honor camper program. Now I admit, I've been out of the CS program for a while, but I would think that I would have heard at least a mention of these initiatives at District meetings, Roundtables, Council e-newsletters, Council website, or from my Unit Commish. Maybe local council SE's are free to decide, "we aren't going to do that."...or maybe I'm just a mushroom. (kept in the dark and fed BS)... " First off, there are two elements to this. Yes, there is the "mushroom syndrone", where scouters to DO attend Roundtable, read council newsletters, websites, etc, don't hear about things because someone, somewhere, decided 'they didn't need to know about'. But there is also the "ostrich syndrone" (you know how the ostrich sticks their head in the sand), where scouters DON'T attend roundtabled, read council newsletters, websites, etc. And ALSO don't read Scouter, read the national websites, attend program kickoffs, etc. If a scouter who has been in the program for awhile (a couple of years) and has NOT heard of OA, Venturing, Jamborees, etc, I think it more likely the ostrich syndrone then the mushroom. For instance, I attended a council-wide training event in my Sea Scout white uniform, and had a couple of scouters ask me if the program still exists. This within a month of Scouting magazine running a cover-article on Sea Scouting!!! How could they ask me this question if they had atleast skimmed thru Scouting magazine??? You can defeat the "mushroom syndrome" by widening the range of information sources you make use of. If anyone knows of a cure for the "ostrich syndrome", let me know.

"I'm not familiar with NSO's...could you supply the meaning for the acronym, please? " NSO= National Scout Organization. It refers to the Scout organization that exists in a Nation. Per WOSM (and I assume WAGGGS), there is to be only one NSO per national, which may then join WOSM. It a few countries where there are actually several (due mainly to religious divisions), these groups must federate together and the federation is what joins WOSM. "Actually, many WAGGGS member countries associations allow alternate wording for the promise and laws to accomodate expression of differing faiths. I'm not at all familiar with WOSM - do they require greater uniformity? " My understanding is that in the wake of the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe and the re-emergence of Scouting in those countries, religious belief was no longer a regular part of people's lives. In many of these emergenct scout associations, they didn't see the important in following a concept of "Duty to God", basically of ANY emphasis of religious duty. In reaction to this, WOSM was very adamant that any scout association which wanted to be part of WOSM, had to adhere to the basic principles as set down by the Founder, which included "Duty to God". WOSM does not permit that this phrase be altered, or that scouts may replace it with their own. Their literature on-line makes it clear that each scout & leader is to interprete "Duty to God" to refer to their religious duty, whatever that religion may be. I am surprised that WAGGGS is more lax in this.

Scouting & Guiding are world-wide movements with 10s of millions of members around the world who adhere to a wide-range of religious beliefs (including, but not limited to Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Sihks, and many others). ALL are united in following their "Duty to God". If neither WOSM nor WAGGGS see the need to alter or allow NSOs to alter "Duty to God", why does the GSUSA feel they need to?

FWIW, at the WSJ while they made sure to make available food for vegetarians/vegans, kosher, and halal, this did not mean that other foods were not available. In the adult hub, we had sausage rolls, hamburgers, and other meat items. Final meal was a cookout with burgers and sausages (with other items also available).

"Can you say required uniforming? I was required to have my region patches on my uniform as were the boys we sent to the 2005 National Jamboree. Again I don't dispute your information per the insignia guide I just wonder why everyone I personally know that attended these Jamborees was told to wear the region patch as part of their official uniform while traveling to and from or participating in the event." I would question who said this and what their basis for this. AFAIK, its not standard to present Regional patches to the contingents NOR require them to wear them. I suspect that someone in the CR made this decision, which is not keeping with National policy. Big surprise. National standard is to present each participant with 2 patches and one neckerchief. Nothing is said about presenting them with Regional items. Participants do make alternations to their uniform for the duration of the Jamboree (and these alterations are allowed for 6 months before & after). Basically wearing a Jamboree Shoulder Emblem, Jamboree troop numbers, Jamboree troop office patch, jamboree troop patrol patch (as appropriate), and of course, the Jamboree emblem itself (which is now a permanent part of the uniform). You don't wear a quality unit patch (because you are part of a special troop contingent that didn't earn it), and AFAIK, are not to wear a patch on the right pocket (we didn't in 81). I thought the materials put out for the jamboree made this clear, but I can't find this stated in any of the 2005 NSJ materials on hand. This was the standard when I attended the 1981 Jamboree as a youth. AFAIK, except for the practice of creating one-piece, special jamboree unit numbers that started in 2001 and has continued into 2005, Jamboree uniforming policies have not changed (tho since the introduction of the special jamboree unit numbers, I see more and more youth not taking them off. I can tell you when I returned from the 81 jamboree, I immediately changed over my uniform. Especially as at the Jamboree I was just a patrol member, whereas in my troop I was an SPL.)

Can you say 'souvenirs'? Just because you are given a patch does not mean you need to put it on your uniform. I collect Insignia Guides (am interesting in scouting history). Its interesting that for many years, Regional patches were always restricted to regional people. They have been making Jamboree regional patches for many jamborees. I got my first at the 1981 jamboree. However, its only been in the more recent Insignia Guides (last 4-5 years I believe), that who could wear Regional patches was extended to Jamboree staff doing regional work (but could only wear them during the jamboree). By and large, youth do NOT wear Regional patchs. (there are a few exceptions). The left sleeve is where they need to be wearing their patrol medallion and quality unit patches. If they wear a regional patch, it makes it hard to wear those. But as I said earlier, I really don't care if they do wear a regional patch. What I find more annoying is seeing scouts STILL wearing their jamboree unit numbers! The jamboree was over 2 years ago and I still see these kids wearing them. Take them off! Your jamboree patch (and Jamboree shoulder patch) tells us you went to the jamboree. We don't need your to wear the jamboree troop numbers as well. That unit stopped existing over 2 years ago. Put your proper unit numbers on.