emb021

"I could be wrong, and there will probably be someone following me with a quote of the regulations, but I don't think you are supposed to wear your OA Flap with a venture uniform" You're wrong. You may wear your OA Flap on the VenturING uniform. The OA even put that in their FAQ at their site. Nothing says you can't. (btw, its Venturing, not Venture. That's another program)

"A related question - have always been told that we can't have elections in our troop unless we have more than 50% of our scouts present. Is this true?" I believe it is. You must have a quorum to hold official elections, for any organization. I am not sure what the quorum for OA elections (this would be documented in the GOA), but I believe its 50% of the troop.

The purpose of NCS is to train the people who will be running your council's camp programs. FWIW, National doesn't see the need to let us 'regular people' know about it. And since we aren't the target audience, its hard to argue. (for most of us, we should probably be looking at the programs offered at Philmont Training Center instead. And those are known.) Your council should be the one determining if you need to go to NCS and provide you will the information on the NCS in your Region. Speak with the appropriate pros in your council office.

"TLT assumes way too much on the part of the SM or whoever is delivering the program. The assumption that an adult has been through the new Woodbadge course is a bit too presumptuous, IMO." Too true. I get a little annoyed with some BSA training materials where there is little supplemental information to help the presenter in presenting the info (stuff like resources, help to full prepare for and deliver the materials). And think that a scouter who has gone thru WB is prepared is a poor idea. While a WB graduate may have gained knowledge, is he/she now in a possition to turn around and train others in that information. For instance, in going over the TLT stuff (a few months back) on item that caught my idea was that the trainer was supposed to train the scouts on 'servant leadership'. But then failed to explain/expand on it. Now, unless they added some stuff to WB since I staffed it in 2004, we don't cover servant leadership in WB. The OA tossed the term around, but fails to define it or cite sources or the like. So how is a scoutmaster to properly explain this (IMO) very important concept without some help? My Fraternity covers servant leadership in our leadership development program. But we spent time defining it and citing our sources, and we trainers are expected to read some of the key works in this area to better understand it ourselved (else, how can we explain it?)

"Build a good program and the numbers will take care of themselves. Sometimes a crew that spends all of it's time recruiting will never have time left over to do their program. If you have 8 boys/girls that are interested, let them concentrate on the program and forget the recruiting. " If you have a good program, but no one knows about it, no one will come. Venturing is 'scoutings best kept secret', because few promote it... 'recruitment' is something that should be on-going and constant. This is something we say in my fraternity, because too many view 'recruitment' as something that only happens during their short 2-3 week rush period at the begining of the semester. But prehaps recruitment is the wrong term. Promotion? Marketing? PR? You have to inform people that you exist and what you are doing. This should be all elements of your recruitment program. As you need to always have these going, otherwise recruitement is forgotten until you group is in dire straits. What do you do? * articles in council newspaper, local papers. * website for crew, with up to date info (ie, bad enough if you have an event that happened 2 weeks ago listed as 'upcoming', if you have an event from months past as 'upcoming), pictures, etc of all the great things you're doing. * brochure on your crew (with info on what you do, where you meet, how to contact you), that is available in various places (in your community, to scouts, etc), and which your crew members can give out to interested people (or people you want to get interested in what you are doing) * Scout show (ok, many too much for your crew to do alone. Team up with several crews) * Crew open house. This should be your big annual 'recruitement drive', where you go all out to promote yourselve and bring new people on-board. Show who you are, what you do, why they should join. But be sure people don't think that because they missed this event they are out of luck to join.

"There is no written BSA rule saying the Scoutmaster can or cannot manipulate advancement, so don't ask for one. There simply is no mechanism in the BSA program allowing this." The only rule about advancement is that you may not add to or take away from the written advancement requirements. I am not aware of any policy one way or another about revoking advancement. If it existed, it would be in the Advancement Guidelines booklet you can get from National Supply (and your Council Office/Scout Shop) While there may be a procedure to remove an Eagle Scout award, I am not aware of it, and AFAIK, its something that would occur at the National level. "The boy was a discipline problem, but we have by-laws covering this." A slight repeat from a recent posting I sent to Scouts-L. Bylaws (one word, no hyphen) document how an organization is organized. They do NOT and should NOT deal with behavior/discipline of members. If an organization does feel the need to so document such things, they need to go into separate documents, say Membership Policy, Standing Rules, etc. While OA Lodges, Venturing Crews, and Sea Scout Ships should have bylaws (and basic templates are provided), by and large there is no need for Pack and Troops to have them, because their organization is documented in the various BSA literature. Its one thing for a unit to document various policy, rules, procudures and the like. But these are not bylaws. Frankly, if National felt there was a need, again, this would have been covered in the documents, a template provided, and it be a requirement to charter a unit. [this is a standard requirement for subsidiary groups, like local clubs, of state or national organizations] (btw, I'm a parliamentarian, and am familiar with bylaws, have both written then and done revisions on them) I have to echo sst3rd's comment about training. I think not just your Scoutmaster needs it.

"Does anyone know if there is any video/DVD materials available for the TLT course. The old Scoutmaster's Training Kit for the week end troop training had a video and a manual. All I can seem to find is the Troop Leadership Training guide #34306A. Need Visual props to help promote the use of this at Rooundtables." Nope. That is it. There is a DVD with the council NYLT course, but nothing for TLT. If something is coming soon, I have no idea. (actually, I don't recall being too impressed with the TLT materials. there was a lot of assumptions as to the knowledge of the leader to teach the materials, with no info or references or the like to educate themselves on the information they were teaching)

For me, getting full support of Venturing is a worthy goal, but one that may have to come only once the number of crews in a district grows to a point where its doable. What is that number? Don't know. Half dozen? 8? 10? For me, the solution is to support Venturing at the council level, and only push this support down to the district level once the number of crews in that district is at the right level. The biggest problem with this topic is that so many seem to feel that Venturing should just 'grow on its own' without any special support from district/council. The problem with this attitude is that Venturing is called "scouting's best kept secret" for a reason: too many have no idea what it is, so until they do, why are they going to form crews? For me, the ideal would be that: *every crew have a unit commissioner who is knowledgable about Venturing, under the leadership of higher-level commissioners who like wish know the program. Having ADC & ACC for Venturing is a must. *Districts should have regular monthly Venturing Roundtables attended by both Venturing youth & adults. *Venturing training such as Venturing adult basic, VLSC, and Powder Horn are made available on a regular basis. *Venturing Crews are present at district/council scout shows. *Venturing is included with council/district program kickoff events and promotions. *Venturing events are planned and carried out by Venturers at the council/district levels, ideally organized by district/council VOAs (or whatever you want to call them). *In the summer, there should be council high adventure programs that ideally target Venturers (Philmont contingent of just Venturers) or which include Venturers. *Venturing Silver Award & Sea Scout Quartermaster Award recipients are included in Council Eagle Banquets. *Adult Venturing leaders are included at Council Award Banquets, and their awards (such as Council VLA) are recognized. *The Venturing program should be recognized and promoted, including info on the council website, council newsletter, etc. Now, as I said, as things grow, some of the above should remain at the council level, some ideally should be at the district level. If you don't have the numbers at the district, you need to start off at the council level with a Council Venturing Committee, working with the goal of establishing a council-wide Venturing Roundtable on at least a quarterly basis and establishing a council VOA. This group should work to ensure that Venturing training is made available, Venturing is promoted and new crews established and Venturers are recruited, Venturing events are available (a lot of Venturers are turned off by attending Boy Scout events where there is nothing for them to do or where they seemed to be expected only to be staff). Some of the things I've seen in my area are: * Crews need training for youth and adults, and this training needs to be made available on an annual basis from those who understand the program (not some idiot reading from a syllabus). * Venturing program needs to be promoted and explained, else why should new crews be establish? Promotion needs to include both promoting the general program (via articles in council newsletters, booth at scout shows & other major council events, and event one-on-one by Venturing leaders who attend council events in their greens), and promotions of individual crews by making sure people know what crews exist where and what they do (best with crew-specific brochures available at events, etc). * Many crews need help recruiting, and the above can help, as well as working to get into large venues that may attract new members. * Crews need a forum to met other crews and pool their resources. Roundtable are a great venue for this, as well as on-line forums (IF you can get the crews and their members to use it)

"Is a paper unit of 50 people more important or more significant that a solid well run unit of 8-10?" Depends on who you ask. Many council are just fine with the first. Their numbers look great with many large Venturing units. For many of us involved in Venturing, we want real Venturing units, ideally solid (regardless of size) using the Venturing program. We don't want a lot of paper units.

This seems to be the only 2007 event the BSA seems to be doing: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-240.pdf

""One World One Promise" I've heard two different opinions on this. 1) Above the right side pocket flap, and 2) On the right pocket. Anyone have a definitive answer?" Above the right pocket is reserved for Jamboree patches. This is NOT a jamboree patch. Sooo, the proper place would be the right pocket. Sadly, this is not the only World Scouting program the BSA is ignoring. They are also ignoring the Scouts of the World Program, for older scouts/Venturers (15-26). Check out the program here: http://www.scout.org/en/about_scouting/the_youth_programme/scouts_of_the_world_award (I asked the Venturing Division people if the BSA was going to make this available. Answer: No.)

"" Venturing uniform policy allows the wearing of Boy Scout rank patches." I agree that "ALL square knots may be worn on any BSA uniform." But there isn't a knot for all Boy Scout rank patches.Only the Eagle Scout. " Eamonn- I did not say there was a knot for all Boy Scout rank patches. Re-read what I wrote, which I will repeat: You may wear your Boy Scout rank patch on your Venturing uniform. ALSO, all square knots may be worn on any BSA uniform, including the Venturing uniform. YOU decide what knots YOU will wear, not others.

"I hope it is because of the removal of ghost units and not the actual loss of kids. I just went out to the Venturing section of the BSA's website to their unit locator page. In my area, there were a lot of Crew chartered to things like the County Juvenile Detention Center, Foundation for the Disabled, Knowledge is Power Prep, Parents for PAWS, Positive Tomorrows, Service Learning Center-Campfire, Human Restorations, etc. One high school in the area had 9, count them, 9 Crews chartered to it while one church had 2 Crews." I had the same question and have never gotten an answer. To me, ghost units are fake units with fake names to inflate numbers. What you take about I call 'paper units', which are real groups with real kids, but which are registered as Venturing units for insurance &/or to use scout camps, but which otherwise make no use of the Venturing program. I bet those kids aren't even aware they are Venturers. One of the councils I work with does that. They would crow about how great their Venturing numbers are. But when you really look at it, there were few 'real' Venturing crews. And no council support from Venturing. The council has no council/district Venturing events, few Venturing training, and they haven't had a Powder Horn since 2002 when they cohosted one. Several dedicated Venturing leaders have been working hard over the last could of years to change this.

"The Boy Scout square knots can be worn as an adult in Venturing, as well, correct? " ALL square knots may be worn on any BSA uniform. Most people will go out and get the green backed repro knots to wear on their Venturing uniform, rather then wear the tan knots. (ie Eagle Scout, AOL, Scouter's Key, Scouter's Training Award, etc).

milwscout580- you do NOT need to get the Venturing pants/shorts from National Supply and be in full/official Venturing uniform. Unlike in the Boy Scout Program, in Venturing so long as you are wearing charcoal gray pants/shorts, REGARDLESS of the source, with your green Venturing shirt, you are in FULL Venturing uniform. If your camp staff people demain you get the official pants/shorts, they are wrong. You can get charcoal gray pants/shorts from various sources, including Cabelas', Bass Pro Shop, etc.

"If I am the Tiger Den leader, earning my Tiger Den Leader knot, can I use this same year to count toward tenure for a Scout or Venture knot? I'm not double counting activities/requirements. With multiple boys, I find that I am potentially in a Pack position, Troop Postion, and Crew position all at the same time, and its not the same type of position." FYI- its Venturing, not Venture. If you are registered in multiple programs, yes, you can use the same chronological time for different awards. So if you are a Tige Den Leader AND a Venturing Associate Advisor, you can be working toward the TDL Knot AND the Scouting Training Award for Venturing at the same time. Furthermore, if you are the KEY leader in Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts and Venturing, you can be earning the Training Award (2 years) as to work toward the Key (3 years). [may be off on the years] "I once heard someone say that the total number of years you had knots for HAD BETTER (imagine a bitter, snarling threat) equal at least the total number of years you'd been in Scouting as an adult. " Sorry, but he's wrong.

First off, the numberals are NOT specifically 'boy scout patches'. They are also used on Venturing uniforms. Also, Venturing uniform policy allows the wearing of Boy Scout rank patches. So your program director was incorrect to have you remove them. The unit numerals you should have worn would have been the unit number of your Camp Staff Venturing crew. In one council I am in, they do the same thing. This is important, because they do have several female Venturers on staff. One thing they do (and I've seen this at other camps) is they have their own unique "camp staff" office patch, which is worn in that position. They further have arc strips to go around the camp staff office patch to indicate if you are a senior staffer, etc. Everyone wears their other patches (flap, jambo, knots, etc).

I have a copy at home. Will check it and see what it says tonight.

"Most [NYLT]conferences require that participants be First Class Scouts who are at least 13 years of age. Each youth should be his troop's senior patrol leader or assistant senior patrol leader, or should expect to hold one of these positions soon." Interesting, considering the description of NYLT from the "Leadership Training" booklet (#3416A) says that NYLT is for senior patrol leaders, patrol leaders, and other youth leaders, with no mention of age or rank requirements.

Many scouters joined (and stayed involved in) scouting for different reasons. Like many, I joined as a youth and stayed on as an adult. Like some of them, I'm single with no kids. I know of some who didn't join until their son(s) got involved. Some left when their kids did (had one guy at WB tell me he planned on doing this), while others have stayed on after they aged out (and in many cases their son(s) stayed involved as adult leaders themselves). I know of some who, like me, stayed on as adults after aging out. I know of some who came back as an adult leader after aging out. Now married and with kids, they are still involved.

"Realize that the youth are trained after they have completed TLT. They don't need NYLT to be trained." They earn the Trained strip by going thru TLT. But they should still go to NYLT for futher training. Training is on-going. Let's not instil this 'idea' that training ends when a course does. Also, not sure the source of Fscouter's requirements to attend NYLT. AFAIK, the only requirement is they should go thru TLT. I am not aware of any age, rank, or position requirement to attend NYLT.

"There is a stereotypical viewpoint that all Venturing crews are all Outdoor oriented and that is it." The thing is, is this is largely true. Outdoor crews make up the vast bulk of Venturing crews. Something like 90%. Hence the domanance. The Outdoor Committee of the National Venturing Committee is the tail that wags the dog. This is why the Ranger Award came out first of the Expert Awards (Trust and Quest being the others). This is why the Venturing Leader Manual has all that outdoor stuff in it, etc. Not saying its right or wrong, just how it is. "VenturING Crews can do many things, there are specialty lists that list all the Venturing specialties." True. And I've pointed this out from day one, but many don't get it. The flexibility of the Venturing program is our greatest strengh and our greatest weakness. Too many scouters from the 'traditional' programs don't get this. And its said, because its one of our legacy from the Exploring program, and has been around since the late 1940s! and became a formal part in the 1970s! "Many training programs in scouting for adults seem to be geared for the successful professional (nothing against professionals) but a person from a service job or even blue collar job does not understand much of it. So how can a 14 year old Patrol Leader understand it." Sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you are speaking of. As someone who has gone thru most of the current (and a few of the recent former) BSA training courses in the Boy Scout and Venturing realm, I don't understand what you mean. All the courses are gear to the particular participant, whether its age or program or both. While there are similiarities in some content, they still development the content to be relavent to the particular age/program.

"As I understand it, WB students are now supposed to wear the uniform for their current position. That way, the student doesn't spend money on a new shirt, CSP, # 1 numeral." Correct. When 21CWB was rolled out, this was one of the very big changes. The new participant neckerchief has the troop 1 numberal on it instead. "I think staff (and most adults anyway) should wear 1-2 rows of knots if you have them. The adults who have earned and wear 4-5 rows look impressive, and silly too. 1-2 rows is enough, IMO. " And that's just your opinion. I leave it to each person to decide what they will wear. I can tell you that originally under 21CWB, staff DID have to wear the stripped uniform, but still wearing the uniform of their program (a Venturing adult would wear a stripped Venturing shirt, not a tan shirt). This was dropped about a year ago or so, but with the recommendation that staff limit their knots to 3 rows.

"Why not use a european approach after Boy Scouts wedge Varsity between the Troop and Crew Programs up Venturing's age to 17 or 18 and continue to age 21 and use the young adults in leadership or like a Rover Program. In Venturing continue the specialty interest idea but make it more like Scouting instead of Scouting Lite. Where this would be a continual line of scouting, but also young men and women could still join the Venturing program, and encourage Varsity to continue in making events open to young women, but not team membership." This is not just a 'european thing', but something that most scouting association do, but which the BSA does not. In most associations, the scouting sections are: Cub Scouts 7-10 Boy Scouts 11-14 Venturing 15-18 Rovers 19-26 (please note, the actual names used many be a little different) The BSA has a problem with 3 programs 'competing' for the same age group of 14-17 (Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, and Venturing). You may not be aware, but the ORIGINAL Varsity Scout program was limited to 14-15 year old boys, with the idea that boys would then move into Exploring (this was back in the 70s). My idea for the BSA is that they should have these sections: Cub Scouts 7/8-10 Boy Scouts 11-14 Varsity Scouts 14-18 Venturing 14-18 [including Sea Scouts] Rovers 19-26 So end Boy Scouts with 14. Leave Varsity Scouting as is, to allow those boy who want to continue to be 'boy scouts' to do so, but in Varsity Scouting. This will also end the nonsense of 'Venturing is stealing my older boys' . Leave Venturing essentially along, but bring down the age limit to 18, as it used to be with Explorers. And then bring back Rovers, which is 'young adult scouting'. "Or Option 2 a pre-Venturing Program that introduces youth to a club like organization. Continue in maintaining the scouting values and traditions. " Some have discussed something along these lines, but mainly for the girls who are put off by the 'susie homemaker' program in Girl Scouts.

Clarification. "Officer briefing" is the term used in Venturing that is called "Introduction to Leadeship Conference" in scout troops. I couldn't recall what it was called. The syllabus for this is given in the Scoutmaster Handbook, which should give the training continuum for 'youth leaders' (formerly called 'junior leaders'). Also, if you get the Leadership Training Committee booklet (#34169A) from National Supply (any good scout shop should have several in stock), it too gives the training continuum for all youth leaders.