emb021

"I have mixed feelings on how much an adult should wear on uniform. not talking away from anyone accomplishements, ESPECIALLY Eagle Scouts!!" Not wearing your awards at the appropriate time does not take away from anyones' accomplishements but yourself. Adults wearing their awards appropriately can lead to other youths (and adults) working toward those awards. I have more a problem with adults wearing awards outside of when its appropriate. Epalmer84 gave some good guidence on medals. By and large, medals are for formal occasions (award events, court of honors, etc). What I don't like is when some adults wear things outside these bounds, like an adult I saw at a roundtable wearing his Eagle Medal. Not approprate to wear the medal there. An adult wearing their medals at a court of honor (religous youth awards, etc) may spur some scouts to ask what they are and how they can earn them, and might inspire them to earn them as well. (same as about wearing religious medals at a Scout Sunday service, as well as fielding possible questions from parisioners, which may raise their view of scouting in their eyes).

They've been talking up ArrowCorps5 since 2005 or so, with a big push in the last year. If arrowmen are not aware of it, are they not subscribing to the National Bulletin? Checking out the National website? Not hearing about it a Section Conclave/Conference? Or is their lodge not participating?

FWI- There was a period of time a few years back (10 or so) when National dropped the wreath from the RT Staff patches, because they 'weren't commissioners'. This didn't last too long, and the wreaths were restored. There are probably Scout Shops out there with stock of non-wreath RT Staff patches.

As noted, ONLY the OA 50th and 60th Anniversary patches are authorized to be worn on the sash. Legend patches (sometimes called 'sashbacks') are not authorized, and are expresssly forbidden in the Insignia Guide. This is a little unusual, as the Insignia Guide by and large is about showing what goes where and who wears what, and pretty much never gets into of who can't wear something or that something is not to be worn (either at all or in particular places).

While there was a patch made during the BSA 75th Anniversary for the OA, it was NOT to be worn on the sash. For the OA 75th Anniversary they did a special pocket device, which lead to some of the similiar ones in recent years. I think they had a generic 75th Anniversary patch, but it was not to be worn on the sash. The only patches that are allowed on the sash are OA 50th and OA 60th (Bicentennial) awards. While I am sure there will be patches for the OA 100th Anniversary, it will remain to be seen what form a 100th Anniversary Award will take. With the popularity of the pocket devices in the last few years (the current Leadership in Service one ends this year), it will remain to be seen if they continue such awards into the BSA's 100th Anniversary &/or the OA's 100th Anniversary, or go back to patches.

You were called out for membership but did not go thru the Ordeal (the campout that was cancelled). So you are not an OA member. Had you gone thru the Ordeal, you would have gone thru a ceremony and received an OA sash, flap, book, etc.

Old course as a participant= 8 (less then 10 only because of some poor experiences due to our troop guide that rubbed my fellow patrol members the wrong way). New course as a participant= 10 (my course director set a great tone for the course, and wanted all the staff to provide a great experience for all the participants. Except for a couple who was asked not to come back for the second weekend because they were just trouble, all participants got a great course.) At least in my area, CDs work hard to put on excellent courses for the participants. Unless you are one of those people who has the attitude of 'i don't like person X, because person X is on the course, I will not attend', you are missing out if you miss your chance to go to WB.

With National being a bit learly about new knots, my general attitude with all this is 'I'll believe it when I see something formal from National'.

The Distinguished Commissioners Knot is hardly new. Be around atleast 5-10 years. And considered its existance, and that commissioners can earn the Scouter's Key, what would the purpose of another new knot for commissioner service be?

"So clearly, this all turns around her bad experience at Ordeal, eh? Plus a lot of personal animosity toward some fellow folks in her council. But a bad experience does not a civil case make." I'm wondering if the BSA may not have been aware of all their shenanigains (check nonsense and screen printing business, unit irregularities, etc), and that only when they sued did the council start to really take a look at things and it snowballed. We had a similiar (but much minor) thing happen in my council. A couple with various heath issues attended Wood Badge. Had to be taken around in a golf cart, etc. They made a major nuisense of themselves to the point they were asked not to come back for the second weekend. it was somehow also discovered that their "Boy Scout troop" really just consisted of themselves and their son. (I believe one of the DEs that were on the course, as a participant, basically told them to 'do their son a favor, and put him in a real troop').

"So clearly, this all turns around her bad experience at Ordeal, eh? Plus a lot of personal animosity toward some fellow folks in her council. But a bad experience does not a civil case make." I'm wondering if the BSA may not have been aware of all their shenanigains (check nonsense and screen printing business, unit irregularities, etc), and that only when they sued did the council start to really take a look at things and it snowballed.

I have been to almost every NOAC since 2000. As an adult contingent leader, your basic 'job' is to support the youth contingent members. There will be a wide array of workshops/seminars you can attend. take advantage of that and go to them. There are great shows in the evening. Go to them. There are various other activities. Take advantage of them, such as the OA Musuem and displays, the Founder's Day, and more.

""Our Scouts max out at age 15" "That's not all that uncommon in the U.S., either. You can see some of Eamonn's recent posts on this topic. And I think Beavah has mentioned the same thing. The great majority of most of the troops I've seen are boys 11-14. It seems to me that BSA is really targeted at the middle school years, just not officially." The BSA has stated (if you know where to look) that the Boy Scout program (advancement requirements, materials, etc) is written to the 11-13 year old boy. In most countries, the Boy Scout program runs from 11-14, where upon the boy must then move over to the next program (Venture, Venturing, Exploring, whatever it is called). The BSA is unusual with having its Boy Scout program run until 18, and overlap with what should be its older youth program, Venturing. (have to wonder if any other scout association does that). It causes a lot of problems. Scoutmasters demand that their older youth stay in the troop to be the youth leaders (because the 11-13 year olds can't/aren't 'able' to be the youth leaders), but too often give the older youth any reason to stay (and if they do, it's usually only after they've 'done their choires' of being the youth leaders, etc.) Many boys come over to Venturing because they can get away from being forced to work with the younger youth (yes, Venturing may work with younger youth, but on THEIR terms, not the scout leaders'), be with their peers, do stuff that they want and is more appropriate for their age, etc. But this is getting off the topic.

What is interesting is that at times the BSA has increased the number of merit badges in certain fields at certain times, then merged them all together. From 1942-52, the BSA took the Aviation Merit Badge and split it out into 4: Aerodynamics, Aeronautics, Airplane Design, Airplane Structure. This were all important to the Air Scout program at the time. Changes in the program caused the BSA to merge them back into one. In the late 20s/early 30s, to encourage Scouting amoung farming youth, the BSA rolled out a large number of farm based merit badges that most were wiped out in 1975. Agriculture 1911-75 became Food Systems Animal Industry 1928-75 became Animal Science Bee Keeping 1911-95 Beef Production 1928-75 Citrus Fruit Culture 1931-52 became Fruit & Nut Growing Corn Farming 1928-75 Cotton Farming 1931-75 Dairying 1911-75 Farm & Ranch Management 1980-87 became Agribusiness Farm Arrangement 1960-73 became Farm Arrangements Farm Arrangements 1974-79 most likely merged into Farm & Ranche Management Farm Home & Its Planning 1928-59 became Farm Arrangement Farm Layout & Building Arrangements 1928-59 became Farm Arrangement Farm Records & Bookkeeping 1928-58 became Farm Records Farm Records 1959-80 became Farm & Range Management Food Systems 1978-87 became Agribusiness Forage Crops 1959-75 Fruit & Nut Growing 1953-75 Fruit Culture 1928-54 became Fruit & Nut Growing Grasses, Legumes, & Forage Crops 1938-58 became Forage Crops Hog & Pork Production 1928-58 Hog Production until 1975 Nut Culture 1928-54 became Fruit & Nut Growing Poultry Farming/Keeping 1911-75 Rabbit Raising 1943-93 Sheep Farming 1928-75 Small Grains & Cereal Foods 1943-1958 became Small Grains Small Grains 1959-75 Soil Management 1928-52 The last of these is: Agribusiness 1987-95 Still around: Animal Science 1975-present Farm Mechanics 1928-present

This is a great resource on Merit Badges: http://www.scouters.us/mb.html

"#45 Distinguished Eagle Scout? thought there was a knot for this as well..." Nope. There isn't a separate knot for DES. You get a miniture gold eagle pin to wear on the Eagle Scout knot.

FWIW, all troops that I am familiar with meet weekly for about an hour and a half. For holidays, they may not meet. Most camp once a month. As someone mentioned, if a troop is meeting less then that &/or camping less then that, most likely they have a very weak program &/or leadership. Even when my troop was going thru a period of poor membership numbers and leadership, we STILL met once a week and camped each month.

"I also do not doubt that the facts described in the open letter are correct. The only point I have is that I feel, the decision should have been made in a democratic way on the appropriate board, the WSC, not the way it happened. " Have to agree. It seems that too many people are overlooking what was stated in that Open Letter to get their patties in a wad about how the BSA et all handled things. They also see to lose site of the fact that there were others in addition to the BSA who threatened to withhold funds, but most seem to want to only focus on the BSA. I wished that the BSA and the rest hadn't done this. But we really don't have the full story (regardless of all the documents on-line). I have to wonder (considering the comparison of the WOSM to the UN) if part of the problem, again, was organizational, and caused by how WOSM works, who they are having run it, etc, and if they were loosing sight of their real purpose (statements by Dr. Missoni aside).

There is also a scouting museum in Las Vegas that is now the official WOSM world scout museum. Not sure if they are fully open. Think you have to make an appointment. http://boyscoutmuseum.com/ Also, try to swing by Phimont in Cimarron, NM. They have museums there, too.

"Well, they must have believed that he had all it takes to be SG. After all, he wasn't the only applicant. Plus he was chosen on general consensus. In this light, the actions taken by the BSA make even less sense." Well, we don't know how they choice the SG. Frankly, the only SG I was ever familiar with was Laszlo Nagy, and even his choice of SG seems to me strange (again, no experience running non-profits, but did a critical research on world scouting and was then asked to be SG). I have no idea what process they followed when they picked Dr. Missoni. Where there other candidates, what process did they go in choosing them, who was the group that selected the SG, etc. And choosing the SG by general consensus isn't to me a good idea. Put it to a proper vote or the like. And prehaps this is part of the problem: a true lack of proper professionalism amoung the paid staff of WOSM. Are the people being choicen for these positions have the right training/experience to do the job (ie more then just being 'good people' and 'good scouts').

"We Americans aren't above "spin" in our politics. " Sadly, no one is. Certain Dr. Missoni's stuff is certainly his spin on things. He may try to take the 'high road', but it doesn't wash. Everyone is best served by reading all the materials in question. (I've even printed them out). I think too many take the BSA's action, and ignore the Open Letter signed by several large NSO, plus the action of the WSF and Swedish Scouts. I would have prefered that the actions of the BSA had not come so soon after the Open Letter. I think that things should have been hashed out first in the WSC. But for all we know, others may have felt they had tried to do so, and this action by the BSA, WSF, and Swede Scouts was done because they felt they had to.

"But a crew does set its uniform." To a degree. The use of the tan Boy Scout uniform is NOT available to Venturers. If you use the green Venturing uniform, you should wear it with charcoal gray pants/shorts (source is unimportant). If you use the green Venturing uniform, you WILL follow the insignia placement rules. If the rules says something goes in a certain place, you need to follow that. The crew does NOT get to decide to wear things in a different place, nor bar people from wearing what they are entitled to. There is NOTHING wrong with wearing an OA flap on the green uniform, nor wearing Boy Scout rank patches, nor wearing Cub Scouter or Boy Scouter knots. The National Venturing Cabinet has a page about Venturing uniform here: http://www.nationalventuringcabinet.org/uniform.shtml with links to resources as well as some nice color charts of insignia wear. This page was created under the prior National Venturing President, who, btw, is female. It shows the wearing of the OA flap on the uniform, wearing the Eagle badge, and Boy Scout knots. So please don't say you can't wear them... If a Venturer choices to NOT wear something they are entitled to, that's fine. But the CREW has NO business telling a Venturer they can't wear something they can.

Overall Owl62 covering most points, but a few further points and corrections. Its "Venturing" not "Venture". Venture is another program. So its Venturing Crews and Venturers. Venturers do NOT need to keep membership in a Boy Scout troop to stay in the OA. I know of several Venturing Crews that are tightly associated with OA Lodges such that ALL the members are OA members, and some are members in the Crew just to keep their OA membership. The Corps of Discovery is NOT as wide spread as some would like people to think. It may only exist in an embryonic form in a handful of councils. Ideally, councils should have a council Venturing Officer Association. Many don't. A few might have district VOAs, either along with council VOA or instead of. Its really inconsistant, which is something that many of the Regional Venturing Presidents are trying to address, but it can be an uphill battle with council who are resistant to it. The Venturing Leaders Manual is for both the adult leaders and the crew youth officers.

"If he's only registered as a Venturer, that's not appropriate, proper or correct. " Quite true. It is incorrect for Venturers to wear tan. There is no problem with Venturers wearing their OA flap on their uniform. If they choose not to, that is their choice. No adult and no crew should either harrase them about wearing it, or tell them they shouldn't.

"According to our Lodge Advisor, OA members MUST be registered with a Troop or District/Council position. Membership in Venturing only or Cub Scouts only is not an option." Your Lodge Advisor is incorrect. ANY BSA registration will allow you to keep your membership in the OA. That includes Cub Scouting (for adult cub scouter who are also OA members) and Venturing (for both youth and adults who are also OA members). Your advisor is confusing where can elections be held (in troops and teams and for scouters at the district/council level) with where you need to hold your membership to retain OA membership.