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"That's one of the main reasons I gave up being a trainer. The SE was not happy with the number of training courses being offered, and stated, "how hard can it be, just go read them the stuff and play the videos." For me, each course was the same level of effort (preparing, finding a location, printing flyers, borrowing a laptop and projector from work, printing handouts, endless phone calls from people who can't read, etc), whether one person showed up or 50. It should be noted that the guy who replaced me as training chair two years ago has yet to deliver his first course. " Puhleeze. This is why we have poor training and poorly trained leaders. There is more to training the just "read them the stuff and play the videos." This is why you need training who both know how to present AND know the program (so they can expand upon what is in the script/video) to ensure the participants know the stuff. 2 years and no training.

"It's not just a syllabus, it's a "script". It also includes posters,a CD with power point slides, and a VHS tape." That's what a 'syllabus' is: all that stuff. Anyway, as I said, your council should have a complete and up to date set of ALL training syllabi. If they don't, shame on them. And if they expect that training is delivered at the district level, they either need to make this material available to the districts, or better yet, have a set for each district. You might also want to get a copy of the "Leadership Training Committee" booklet, #34169A (2006 edition). This booklet comes out about every year (gets updated pretty much every year, note the changing of the stock number, usually with the letter getting incremented), and gives info on ALL training courses, the national supply numbers for this stuff, and info on the training awards. Costs maybe $5. I get it every year. Now, while the Venturing section is usually about a year or two behind, I would think the Cub Scout & Boy Scout sections are more up to date (but then, they don't change as much).

Can't help you with an electronic version, but whoever said there is "no such thing" in regards to a syllabus is wrong. Its: Cub Scout Leader Specific Training, No 34875 Your council training people should have a copy of ALL these leader specific courses. Heck, there should be a set for each district.

"We have a rule in our council that unit leaders may NOT also serve as Commissioners. Not sure if that is a national policy or not." AFAIK, its National Policy. A commissioner should not hold another scouting position, a lest not a unit leader (key unit leader, not referring to the assistants). "That rule should also apply to other district and council positions. " It should, but doesn't. Sometimes I wonder if it should or not. Some may be able to handle it. What I find annoying is that there ARE some leaders out there that would like to take on positions at the district or council, but are too often ignored/overlooked in favor of those key unit leaders.

"Unless you are doing High Adventure, there is nothing that couldn't be done in Boy Scouts that is being done in Venturing." Last time I checked, Boy Scouts were not co-ed. Also, Venturing is more then just doing High Adventure. The range of activities that crews do is many times wider then for troops. And I think many troops would balk at some of the things that many crews routinely do, because they would view it as 'not Boy Scouting' or built around getting boy scout advancement. Crews specialize. Troops do not. This is an attraction for some youth to be involved in a group that is focused on what they want to do. Also, advancement is NOT a big thing in Venturing. So there's no one on your *ss about getting 'First Class in a year' or getting your Eagle or the like (or there shouldn't be).

The application for this Award is here: http://www.scouting.org/venturing/awards/art/shooting.pdf The signoff is on the second page. It seems clear to me that you just need to complete five of the seven disciplines, that's all.

John-in-KC gave some great info. Let me comment first about this remark: "Venture leaders often say venture scouts can do stuff boy scouts can't. They always use firing handguns as the example are they any others?" Venture and Venturing are NOT interchangeable terms. Venture and Venturing are two separate BSA programs. Venture is an optional program for older Boy Scouts, Venturing is the BSA's co-ed program for older (14-21) youth. There are no such thing as "venture scouts". Boys involved in Venture are Boys Scouts. Youth involved in Venturing are Venturers. The unit in Venturing is called a "Venturing Crew", not a 'venture crew'. The 'unit' in Venture is the Venture Patrol of a Boy Scout Troop. A Venture Patrol is NOT 'Venturing in a troop'. While there are several activities that Venturers can do that Boy Scouts can't, the reasons for establishing a Venturing Crew should go beyond that. In Venturing, units can be co-ed. We get a lot of girls who want to do 'the boy scout thing' and are frustrated by the lack of this in girl scouts. In Venturing, more so then in Boy Scouts, the youth run the program. They run the crew, they make the decisions. There is a reason the adults are called 'Advisors'. In Venturing, crews can be setup with a specific focus. Yes, outdoor/high adventure crews are the biggest number, but I know of model railroad, ham radio, youth ministries, indian lore, historical re-enactment, role playing games, scouting memoriabilia collecting, band, drama, scuba, aquatics and a wide range of other types of crews. Plus there are the Sea Scouts. Also, the Boy Scout program was designed for the 11-13 year old. The Venturing program was designed for the high school/college age youth. This is yet another big attraction. Its an age-appropriate program. I would also cautious about trying to tie the Crew too closely with the Troop. The Crew should have a separate existance. Don't do nonsense like require all the crew members to remain active in the troop, or the force the crew program to be subservient to the troops. Don't set high joining requirements for the boys from the troop who want to join the crew (whether its first class or Eagle). Some boys may want to remain in the troop. Some boys may want to be in both. Some boys may want to be only in the Crew. You may attract new youth (both boys and girls) who want to join the crew. Let them.

"It is recommended YPT be taken every two years, but I don't think it is required." Sigh. For some things it is. If you attend national events like Jamboree, NOAC, etc, you will be required to have 'current' YPT. How current is current? 1 year? 2? No answer. But since you can always get re-certified on-line its not as big as an issue as it used to be.

""* Philmon Bull, Sea Base Conch or Shark, or Northern Tier Loon above the left pocket near the shoulder seam. " "I am familar with the Philmont Bull. I believe the tail goes over the shoulder seam if you climbed the Tooth of Time or Baldy?" The myth is the tail goes over the shoulder seam if you climbed the Tooth of Time. There is no rule about this. "I attended Seas Base in the late 70's and did not know they had a Conch or Shark emblem. Do they have any specifc meaning like Conch is for land based camp and Shark for windjammer cruises? Is there a similar patch placement rule like the Philmont bull tail shoulder seam for the Conch/Shark?" The Conch patch came out about 10 years ago, and was later dropped in favor of the shark. There is no meaning to either other then they area Sea Base equivalent to the Philmont Bull. There is no rule regarding the shoulder seam with these 2 patches. "Same questions for the Northern Tier Loon. " The Loon is just the Norther Tier equivalent to the Philmont Bull. Again, there is no rule regarding the shoulder seam. I've also heard of an Okpik Owl (Okpik is the Northern Tier winter program).

"Also im a Eagle Scout. Is there any patch that I can wear on my Jac shirt. I know I can have the boy scout patch on the left pocket. So what kind of eagle patch can I wear if any on the jac shirt." There is nothing to wear on the jac-shirt to indicate you are an Eagle Scout. The rules are: * universal BSA patch on the left pocket. * Philmon Bull, Sea Base Conch or Shark, or Northern Tier Loon above the left pocket near the shoulder seam. * ONE jacket patch on the back (OA, Jamboree, High Adventure Base, etc) * Typically a PTC or High Adventure base patch on the right pocket. See the Insignia Guide.

"You may have an old jac. I believe the emblems first appeared sometime in the 70s. I got mine in 1968 and it's never had the emblem." The emblems did exist back then, they just weren't included with the jacket. This is because you got different emblems depending on your program. For instance, the Explorers in the 60s had the 'circle-v' logo available on red cloth specifically to use on the red jac-shirt. AFAIK, there was a generic boy scout emblem for scout leaders, etc.

When I was a kid, one area of my 'town' they formed a troop at a Mormon church, troop 52. As the only troop in that large area, a lot of non-Mormons joined. Over time, some of the ways Mormons run their troops caused problems, and all the non-Mormons split out to form a new troop in that community. The troop number? 25. Picked by the DE because, 'all the kids already had those 2 numbers from being part of troop 52'. There were 2 historical re-enactment posts (one still exists as a VenturING Crew) in my council. Posts 1835 and 1838. Numbers picked because 1) we did 2nd Seminole War re-enactments, and the war ran from 1835 to 1842 and 2) the leadership of the 2 posts mainly came from troops 35 and 38. We also has an Indian Lore Post (later crew) formed mainly of the indian hobbists in my OA Lodge. Post 564. Same number as my lodge. When that lodge started to charter its chapters as Crews, the numbers were all x564, such as 2564, etc. I have heard of other Explorer Posts/Venturing Crews that had numbers of the council OA lodge for the same reasons... So there can be some creativity in unit numbers.

"but is a scout leader not allowed to wear his knots on the sea scout uniform? We have a sea scout skipper in my council who has 18 knots on his sea scout uniform. " If you check the Sea Scout Manual (which is the correct source for Sea Scout uniforming NOT the Insignia Guide), you will that in regards to knots, Sea Scout leaders can wear NO MORE then SIX (6) knots on the white and navy blue uniforms, and NO KNOTS on the tan uniform. I don't know why this restriction. I know of some Sea Scout leaders that ignore (or are unaware) of this and wear more then 6. I think the tan shirt restriction is silly, because Navy officers DO wear their ribbons on the tan (the claim is that the tan shirt is a 'work shirt' and one doesn't wear stuff like knots on them).

I've been involved with scouting since I was a cub scout. From that time to this, religion as always been clear to me as a core component (duty to god, scout is reverant), but a compenent that has been moderated by the fact that all religions must be respected. What I have seen is that if you have a scout event that goes into Sunday, there is a religious service. This is usually fairly non-denominational, in some cases even including reading of passages from many religions, including non-judeochristian ones. Pushing a particular faith was never acceptable. I've also never seen an attitude that everyone must be present at said services. I've seen this attitude at many events I attend in Florida, and around the country. While there may be some units, especially those chartered to certain religious groups, which may be more religious, and there are some scouting events which are more explicitly religious (and its obvious they would be, say aimed at scouts or units of a particular regligous group or the like), I've always taken that as the norm.

A problem I see with requiring the earning of religious awards, apart from the issue of the differences between many, is that 1) not all religious groups have them. 2) what do you do about youth who are not a member of an organized religion? There is no requirement that youth be a member of an formal religious group. Duty to God has been one of the 3 fundamental principles of Scouting. We see this in elements such as the Scout Oath and Law. But we must balance that with the fact that our members come from a wide range of religious beliefs. While merit badges don't touch on religion, take a look at Venturing's Religious Life Bronze and TRUST Award.

Merlyn- you make the mistake in thinking that how things are in the US are how things are in other countries. The fact is, in many countries/cultures, everyone follows some religious belief. There are pretty much few, if any, atheists, and those that are there have little political clout to make an issue of things like this. As to your example. I am sure there are other atheist kids who do this (same for some gay kids). Those who don't make an issue of things don't get bothered. Its those who feel they need to make an issue that get kicked out, etc. Nobody in the Pack said you couldn't omit it because they probably didn't think they needed to point that out or were aware that you were doing so.

While its nice that a Troop CC goes with the troop on camping trips, they need to allow the youth leaders to do their job, and allow the ASM to cover for the SM. That's the ASM's job, not the CC. This Troop CC needs training as to what their job is, what the youth's job is and what the ASM's job is. Her interference shows she don't under how the Boy Scout Program works.

I don't believe in shortchanging training, but considering the previous courses for SM were one weekend, what is the problem? I did Six Sessions (the old SM course) back in the late 80s. It was one weekend. Its replacement, Scoutmastership Fundamentals, was done in one weekend. Remember, this is Basic Training. The scouters need to put in experience AND do supplemental training at roundtables, etc.

"This directly conflicts with any WOSM requirement that youth members must believe in at least one god." WOSM has no such requirement. The only requirement is that the youth must hold some religious belief. Atheism is the absense of religious belief, hence the problem. WOSM also recognized that scouting is not for everyone. If some have a problem with the scouting program, they should seek out another program. Why should scouting change its program to try to accomodate everyone? Scouting is based on 3 fundamental principles: * duty to God * duty to others * duty to self Removing one is like remove a leg from a tripod. It can't stand as its no longer scouting.

"Don't know what others might say but I would address the troop before the election and elplain the purpose of the OA and the importance of it's members being elected by non members as well a fellow OA. I would tell them that if they felt they were not in a position to judge whether a candidate exemplified scouting and promoted camping then they might consider waiting until they did to cast a vote. Most of all I would stress that it was not a popularity contest but a statement to all the other units in the area that the ones we chose for membership exemplify what we see as scouting ideals and campership." All good point, and ones that any good election team should be covering before the election itself. the OA has a video they can show, etc. Might be good to verify that your election teams do this, otherwise the repetition of info might put some off.

"This will likely bite WOSM eventually" WOSM has had that policy in place for some time, and there has been little issue. Realize that this comes from the world body of scouting, in which all scout associations have a say. They have come down on associations who try to drop 'duty to God' or allow for alternatives. "as there are countries that explicitly allow atheists" Which ones? I am not aware of any. "and countries where it's illegal for that country's scouting program to discriminate against atheists" Again, which ones? I am not aware of any.

"I wonder if Scouters in other parts of the world are allowed to worship their concept of God? " You don't need to wonder. They are allowed. WOSM has documents on their website (don't ask me where, they moved stuff around and I find it hard to find stuff) that explains the concept of 'duty to God'. Briefly, per WOSM: * all scout associations MUST inclued "Duty to God" as part of their Scout Oath. * the phrase to be used is "duty to God". Scouts may not change it or replace it with another. * the phrase, "duty to God" is to be interpreted to mean do YOUR religious duty as YOUR religion dictates, REGARDLESS of what your religion is. There is no list of 'approved' religions. "God" in "duty to God" is NOT to be interpreted solely as the Christian God (or JudeoChristian God, etc), and should be interested to include Muslims, Buddhists, Hindu, etc. ALL such religions are welcome in Scouting, both in the BSA and in the World Brotherhood of Scouting.

The "new activity shirt" being spoken of is the 'action shirt' that National came out with a year or two ago. Look in your scout catalog or the on-line catalog: http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?ctlg=05NDC&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=APPAREL&C3=ASHIRTS&C4=&LV=3&item=615ASL'>http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?ctlg=05NDC&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=APPAREL&C3=ASHIRTS&C4=&LV=3&item=615ASL http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?ctlg=05NDC&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=APPAREL&C3=ASHIRTS&C4=&LV=3&item=615AS To me, it looks like a lame version of the popular (in my area) nylon 'fishing shirts', which I am seeing more and more in Venturing with embroidered logos for Powder Horn or Kodiak, and in a few cases used by some Crews as their uniform. Here is a link to Bass Pro Shop and it's version of the fishing shirt (cheaper then Columbia's):http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTextId=73820&hvarDept=600&hvarEvent=&hvarClassCode=5&hvarSubCode=2&hvarTarget=browse

You may have better luck getting the kids into Venturing, Sea Scouting, or even Varsity Scouting then back into a Boy Scout troop.

"My friend the DE wore her switchbacks and her new activity shirt along with a t-shirt underneath. The t-shirt was not official which may evoke some emotion among those who love quoting regulations... :0" There are no 'regulations' regarding t-shirts. So, in what way was it 'not official'. As most units, councils, lodges, etc, make their own t-shirts, my feeling has always been if its a 'scouting related' t-shirt, regardless of the source, its ok to be worn. A lot of people wear a t-shirt under the scout uniform (makes it easy to quickly take off the shirt and be in 'class b' or 'activity uniform'. Personally, I think this 'new policy' silly. In my area, most will wear a scouting-related t-shirt or polo shirt if they want to be in 'activity uniform'. I don't see a lot of people getting the 'official' activity shirt. Sounds more like an attempt at getting more people to buy the shirt. And as someone involved more with Venturing, why should we get it??